What different kinds of possibility are there?Consul wrote: ↑July 26th, 2021, 12:35 pmYes, but not unqualifiedly, because there are different kinds of possibility.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 26th, 2021, 11:20 amA possibility is something that is (or might be) possible. In that sense, all possibilities are the same: they are possible.
Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
-
- Posts: 502
- Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
- Sy Borg
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14992
- Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
Structures that perform equivalent, if far simpler than, functions to a CNS.
Over the years researchers regularly notice that, while form and function in nature have close correlates, often functions considered particular to a structure are found to be performed by analogous structures. For instance, plants, fungi and microbes can sense their environment with structures that perform equivalent functions to neurons.
- Consul
- Posts: 6036
- Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
What material structures can do that?
Functions and their famous "multiple realizability"…Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 3:00 amOver the years researchers regularly notice that, while form and function in nature have close correlates, often functions considered particular to a structure are found to be performed by analogous structures. For instance, plants, fungi and microbes can sense their environment with structures that perform equivalent functions to neurons.
For instance, if plants and humans are both capable of learning (in the same literal and general sense of the term), it doesn't follow that there aren't any significant differences between the kind(s) of learning plants are capable of and the kind(s) of learning humans are capable of.
- Consul
- Posts: 6036
- Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
logical, conceptual, metaphysical/ontological, nomological (natural/physical), epistemological
See:
* The Epistemology of Modality > Varieties of Modality: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moda ... rgEpisModa
* Varieties of Modality: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/modality-varieties/
- Consul
- Posts: 6036
- Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
But what is the definition of "learning" that can be applied literally and generally to plants and humans?
"learning n. 1 Any lasting change in behaviour resulting from experience, especially conditioning. 2. The act or process of acquiring knowledge or skill, or knowledge gained by study (He had several university degrees and was a man of learning)."
—Oxford Dictionary of Psychology
"Learning is a generic term for a diverse number of different cognitive processes. Its simplest and broadest definition can be encapsulated as: learning is a change in the state of a system produced by experience and reflected in behavior. Learning must be distinguished from similar behavioral changes produced by growth, maturation, or development, each of which can mimic the effects of experience. Obviously this diffuse term includes an enormous array of behavioral changes ranging from psychomotor skills such as learning to ride a bicycle to learning one’s multiplication tables to learning how to think logically. That which we call learning comes in many guises."
(Uttal, William R. Mind and Brain: A Critical Appraisal of Cognitive Neuroscience. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press, 2011. p. 177)
Problem: If learning presupposes the capacity for sensory experience, then humans are learners and plants are not. But we can substitute "sensory influence", "sensory impact", or "sensory input" for "sensory experience", so as to broaden the meaning of "learning": "any lasting change in behaviour resulting from sensory influence/impact/input". Or: "a change in the state of a system produced by sensory signals/sensory information and reflected in behavior".
Next problem: If learning is a cognitive process, then humans are learners and plants are not. For cognition requires the use of semantic information in the form of mental representations, and plants surely can't use this sort of information.
-
- Posts: 502
- Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
Thanks. I am working through these now.Consul wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 11:10 amlogical, conceptual, metaphysical/ontological, nomological (natural/physical), epistemological
See:
* The Epistemology of Modality > Varieties of Modality: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moda ... rgEpisModa
* Varieties of Modality: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/modality-varieties/
- Sy Borg
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14992
- Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
Logically, an organism smaller than a neuron will not have a nervous system to allow it to operate as a single entity, no more than humans need to have road and rail networks within them to commute to work. So microbes pass material and information around via ion channels.
There are jobs that an organism has to do to survive - to sense internal function, to sense environment and to respond to that data, which in turn influences the internal and external environments, resulting in a loop of constant adjustment. An organism will necessarily have to feel something to do this.Consul wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 9:34 amFunctions and their famous "multiple realizability"…Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 3:00 amOver the years researchers regularly notice that, while form and function in nature have close correlates, often functions considered particular to a structure are found to be performed by analogous structures. For instance, plants, fungi and microbes can sense their environment with structures that perform equivalent functions to neurons.
For instance, if plants and humans are both capable of learning (in the same literal and general sense of the term), it doesn't follow that there aren't any significant differences between the kind(s) of learning plants are capable of and the kind(s) of learning humans are capable of.
When it comes to P-consciousness, though, the difficulty I have is that I am suggesting something that no human can understand - states of consciousness that no human has ever experienced. In the thread's context, I am referring to a potential simplicity of consciousness that we cannot conceive. Like others, I struggle of imagine the sheer insignificance of basic qualia in the face of our extremely complex human minds.
Consider a grain of sand on the ocean floor. Should we care about that grain of sand? Probably not (unless it's a rare precious metal). Should we acknowledge its existence? I say "yes" for the sake of accuracy, but I doubt there are significant ethical issues at stake here. This is a not a serious ethical issue like that of food animal treatment and the anthropocentrism that stemmed from Descartes' and his horrific experiments.
But damn interesting to consider :)
- Consul
- Posts: 6036
- Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
The interesting question is what can be and what cannot be done psychologically without a nervous system. To repeat my view, I think cognition qua processing of semantic information (mental representations/signs) and phenomenal consciousness qua subjective experience require a central nervous system in order to be naturally realizable.Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 6:14 pmLogically, an organism smaller than a neuron will not have a nervous system to allow it to operate as a single entity, no more than humans need to have road and rail networks within them to commute to work. So microbes pass material and information around via ion channels.
If by "feelings" you mean subjective experiences, that's just a question-begging non sequitur!Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 6:14 pmThere are jobs that an organism has to do to survive - to sense internal function, to sense environment and to respond to that data, which in turn influences the internal and external environments, resulting in a loop of constant adjustment. An organism will necessarily have to feel something to do this.
QUOTE>
"Most researchers accept that even quite complex perception, cognition, and control of action can go on entirely 'in the dark'."
(Godfrey-Smith, Peter. "The Evolution of Consciousness in Phylogenetic Context." In The Routledge Handbook of Philosophy of Animal Minds, edited by Kristin Andrews and Jacob Beck, 216-226. London: Routledge, 2018. p. 220)
<QUOTE
I don't think the postulation of experiential qualia in nonanimal organisms becomes more plausible by restricting it to "basic" or "simple" qualia, because it seems that even the most basic or simplest experiences require nonsimple minds that cannot be realized on subneuronal levels of physiological organization.Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 6:14 pmWhen it comes to P-consciousness, though, the difficulty I have is that I am suggesting something that no human can understand - states of consciousness that no human has ever experienced. In the thread's context, I am referring to a potential simplicity of consciousness that we cannot conceive. Like others, I struggle of imagine the sheer insignificance of basic qualia in the face of our extremely complex human minds.
Consider a grain of sand on the ocean floor. Should we care about that grain of sand? Probably not (unless it's a rare precious metal). Should we acknowledge its existence? I say "yes" for the sake of accuracy, but I doubt there are significant ethical issues at stake here. This is a not a serious ethical issue like that of food animal treatment and the anthropocentrism that stemmed from Descartes' and his horrific experiments.
But damn interesting to consider
- AmericanKestrel
- Posts: 356
- Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
- Location: US
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
Advaita, non-dualism, asserts the only thing that exists is consciousness, everything else is unreal.Scott wrote: ↑July 15th, 2021, 11:56 am Sometimes there will be news headlines about someone living with "no brain" but actually the person has 10% of a brain left or such, so in those cases the news headline is using hyperbole, if not being outright dishonest. This topic is not for discussing whether someone can be conscious with a very small and/or severely damaged brain. Rather, this topic is for discussing whether a person/creature can be conscious without any brain at all.
Please do not answer with a simple yes or no, but instead make sure to provide evidence and argument to backup your answer.
the brain is an organ that informs the mind-body-intellect complex through the organs of perception. the consciousness illuminates the understanding of the world, it does not do anything, it simply is and there is no place where it is absent. consciousness is not dependent on the body gains sentience from the reflection of the consciousness.
- Consul
- Posts: 6036
- Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
Where there is consciousness, there must be something having it, something conscious. For consciousness is not a substance, and there is no possible world full of experiencings but without any experiencers (subjects of experience). The subjectivity of experience consists in its being there for a subject that is not itself an experience, since it is nonsensical to say that experiences experience other experiences or themselves. Being experienced by a nonexperience is part of the essence of an experience.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:28 pmAdvaita, non-dualism, asserts the only thing that exists is consciousness, everything else is unreal.
- Sy Borg
- Site Admin
- Posts: 14992
- Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
Once again, I am not convinced that mentality is required needed to feel existence. It appears to be that way for humans and their analogues but - again! - humans only know existence with a big, dominant brain. Thus, we assume that a brained sense of existence is all that is possible. We are not talking about higher functions here - at all.Consul wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 9:58 amThe interesting question is what can be and what cannot be done psychologically without a nervous system. To repeat my view, I think cognition qua processing of semantic information (mental representations/signs) and phenomenal consciousness qua subjective experience require a central nervous system in order to be naturally realizable.Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 6:14 pmLogically, an organism smaller than a neuron will not have a nervous system to allow it to operate as a single entity, no more than humans need to have road and rail networks within them to commute to work. So microbes pass material and information around via ion channels.
You are wrong. Yours is a misrepresentation. Who is talking about feelings? I spoke of feeling one's existence, which is rather important if one wants to avoid dangers.Consul wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 9:58 amIf by "feelings" you mean subjective experiences, that's just a question-begging non sequitur!Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 6:14 pmThere are jobs that an organism has to do to survive - to sense internal function, to sense environment and to respond to that data, which in turn influences the internal and external environments, resulting in a loop of constant adjustment. An organism will necessarily have to feel something to do this.
I appreciate that you believe "biological robots" and "philosophical zombies" are real. I have doubts. If researchers at the cutting edge were always right that would be the end of science. It's is the mistakes and omissions that keep our journey of discovery going.
If you are going to repeat yourself, I will respond in kind:Consul wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 9:58 amI don't think the postulation of experiential qualia in nonanimal organisms becomes more plausible by restricting it to "basic" or "simple" qualia, because it seems that even the most basic or simplest experiences require nonsimple minds that cannot be realized on subneuronal levels of physiological organization.Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 28th, 2021, 6:14 pmWhen it comes to P-consciousness, though, the difficulty I have is that I am suggesting something that no human can understand - states of consciousness that no human has ever experienced. In the thread's context, I am referring to a potential simplicity of consciousness that we cannot conceive. Like others, I struggle of imagine the sheer insignificance of basic qualia in the face of our extremely complex human minds.
Consider a grain of sand on the ocean floor. Should we care about that grain of sand? Probably not (unless it's a rare precious metal). Should we acknowledge its existence? I say "yes" for the sake of accuracy, but I doubt there are significant ethical issues at stake here. This is a not a serious ethical issue like that of food animal treatment and the anthropocentrism that stemmed from Descartes' and his horrific experiments.
But damn interesting to consider :)
And, as stated earlier, there will be equivalent processes happening, eg. ion channels rather than a nervous system. What do ion channels feel like to a human? Same answer as "What does Brownian motion feel like to a human?". Nothing at all. Minuscule and trivial processes to a human are the main game for very small organisms.I appreciate that you believe "biological robots" and "philosophical zombies" are real. I have doubts. If researchers at the cutting edge were always right that would be the end of science. It's is the mistakes and omissions that keep our journey of discovery going.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8265
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
If we are to answer the question - "Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?" - we need to consider other possibilities, not just fall back on "this is what we know, what has always been (as far as we know), so this is how it must (always) be".Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 4:38 pm I am not convinced that mentality is required, needed to feel existence. It appears to be that way for humans and their analogues but - again! - humans only know existence with a big, dominant brain. Thus, we assume that a brained sense of existence is all that is possible.
"Who cares, wins"
- AmericanKestrel
- Posts: 356
- Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
- Location: US
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
Consciousness illuminates. It does not interact. It illuminates a body’s intellect and mind which are informed by organs of perception. Once the body dies there is nothing to interpret, no world to sense. Conciousness remains.Consul wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:49 pmWhere there is consciousness, there must be something having it, something conscious. For consciousness is not a substance, and there is no possible world full of experiencings but without any experiencers (subjects of experience). The subjectivity of experience consists in its being there for a subject that is not itself an experience, since it is nonsensical to say that experiences experience other experiences or themselves. Being experienced by a nonexperience is part of the essence of an experience.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:28 pmAdvaita, non-dualism, asserts the only thing that exists is consciousness, everything else is unreal.
- Consul
- Posts: 6036
- Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
- Location: Germany
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
I'm talking about mental functions or capacities in general. What exactly counts (or should be counted) as mental is another question, but it seems a higher level of vital functioning, of physiological information processing—viz. the neurological one—is necessary for subjective sentience. Nonanimal organisms live their lives on lower levels "in inner darkness", but isn't it astonishing what they can do without P-consciousness?!Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 4:38 pmOnce again, I am not convinced that mentality is required needed to feel existence. It appears to be that way for humans and their analogues but - again! - humans only know existence with a big, dominant brain. Thus, we assume that a brained sense of existence is all that is possible. We are not talking about higher functions here - at all.
You are talking about feelings: "An organism will necessarily have to feel something to do this."Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 4:38 pmYou are wrong. Yours is a misrepresentation. Who is talking about feelings? I spoke of feeling one's existence, which is rather important if one wants to avoid dangers.
I appreciate that you believe "biological robots" and "philosophical zombies" are real. I have doubts. If researchers at the cutting edge were always right that would be the end of science. It's is the mistakes and omissions that keep our journey of discovery going.
Why should (successful) danger-avoidance behavior depend on subjective feelings?
It may depend on sensory signals or sensory information, but the organismal processing of such objective sensory information doesn't require P-consciousness. It is known that sensory perception can take place without any subjective sensations.
All (phenomenally) nonconscious organisms are biological machines, robots or zombies; but they are not zombies in the technical philosophical sense, viz. nonconscious physical duplicates of conscious agents. I believe that this sort of zombies cannot exist!
There are (C)NS-independent forms of physiological signaling or information-processing on the one hand, and (C)NS-dependent forms on the other hand. The question is whether P-consciousness depends on the latter or only on the former. I maintain that the best bet in the light of our scientific knowledge is to affirm its brain-dependence.Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 4:38 pm And, as stated earlier, there will be equivalent processes happening, eg. ion channels rather than a nervous system. What do ion channels feel like to a human? Same answer as "What does Brownian motion feel like to a human?". Nothing at all. Minuscule and trivial processes to a human are the main game for very small organisms.
There is certainly nothing another organism's experiences are like for me, since I cannot feel any experiences I don't have myself.
Our ancient ancestors were naively prone to projections of mentality/experientiality onto all kinds of animate and inanimate things, but scientific explanations of the activities and capacities of nonanimal organisms are possible without any appeal to P-consciousness.
-
- Posts: 2540
- Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm
Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?
That version of nondualism is popular, but it's just wishful thinking. Consciousness can't illuminate the human mind/body, because everything is consciousness including the human mind/body. Something can't be outside of itself to illuminate itself.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑July 30th, 2021, 10:26 amConsciousness illuminates. It does not interact. It illuminates a body’s intellect and mind which are informed by organs of perception. Once the body dies there is nothing to interpret, no world to sense. Conciousness remains.Consul wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:49 pmWhere there is consciousness, there must be something having it, something conscious. For consciousness is not a substance, and there is no possible world full of experiencings but without any experiencers (subjects of experience). The subjectivity of experience consists in its being there for a subject that is not itself an experience, since it is nonsensical to say that experiences experience other experiences or themselves. Being experienced by a nonexperience is part of the essence of an experience.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑July 29th, 2021, 12:28 pmAdvaita, non-dualism, asserts the only thing that exists is consciousness, everything else is unreal.
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023