Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Tegularius
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Tegularius »

Belindi wrote: October 10th, 2021, 7:03 am Discussion of change from life to death is on topic because when we understand what sort of 'experience' is appropriate to a cadaver the better we understand experience appropriate to a live man.

John Keats exprssedessed that point in "Ode To A Nightingale".
Darkling I listen; and, for many a time
I have been half in love with easeful Death,
Call'd him soft names in many a mused rhyme,
To take into the air my quiet breath;
Now more than ever seems it rich to die,
To cease upon the midnight with no pain,
While thou art pouring forth thy soul abroad
In such an ecstasy!
Still wouldst thou sing, and I have ears in vain—
To thy high requiem become a sod.

The Aristotelian soul i.e. what moderns call "life" has been a popular concept for centuries due to the christianising of Aristotelian philosophy. There is another concept of 'soul' as that which we experience as more secret and undefinable than our personas.

William Blake expressed this concept of soul :
Ah Sun-flower! weary of time,
Who countest the steps of the Sun:
Seeking after that sweet golden clime
Where the travellers journey is done.

Where the Youth pined away with desire,
And the pale Virgin shrouded in snow:
Arise from their graves and aspire,
Where my Sun-flower wishes to go.
The most obvious interpretation of what is aspired to is happy life after death. Blake is not obvious and people's "sunflowers" are better understood as that inbuilt capacity, that soul, of men to seek for what is better than the suffering intrinsic to human experience.

So ,no, consciousness cannot exist without any brain at all, if you take consciousness to be what a medic such as an anaesthesiologist, considers to be consciousness.
Swinburne also made an excellent verse of it...
From too much love of living,
From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives for ever;
That dead men rise up never;
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Then star nor sun shall waken,
Nor any change of light:
Nor sound of waters shaken,
Nor any sound or sight:
Nor wintry leaves nor vernal,
Nor days nor things diurnal;
Only the sleep eternal
In an eternal night.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Tegularius wrote: October 10th, 2021, 12:53 am There is nothing which soul can explain or express that brain physiology cannot...
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 10th, 2021, 6:33 am That's a very strong statement, whose correctness seems to depend on a number of unjustifiable assumptions. 🤔
Tegularius wrote: October 10th, 2021, 6:45 am I'm willing to listen to any assumptions you find unjustifiable; but right now I'm going to bed since it's 3:45 a.m. where I am. The brain requires sleep!
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 10th, 2021, 7:22 am Sleep well! 😴

"Any" assumptions? Here are just a few:
  • That the soul can be usefully and meaningfully defined.
  • That souls exist.
  • That humans have souls.
  • That souls are created or sustained by the brain.
  • That a brain is necessary for the continued existence of a soul.
  • That a soul could (not) be sustained otherwise than by a brain.
[I imagine there are many more such examples.]

And that last point brings us around to the topic here, or close to it: "Can souls exist without any brain at all?"
Tegularius wrote: October 10th, 2021, 5:34 pm Don't quite know how to reply in spite of feeling wide awake! Are the "assumptions" listed those you believe I made? On the surface they appear to be your objections to the improbability of there being a soul....or maybe I'm just dense today.
I believe my list is of assumptions necessary for your original statement to be founded and justified. I could be wrong, though. Believe it or not, I have been wrong in the past. [Yes, I know; it's a difficult concept for me to imagine too. 🙂]
Pattern-chaser

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Belindi
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Belindi »

It depends what is meant by consciousness. Nobody can experience another's qualia, despite some lovers' wishful thinking, e.g. Cathy in Wuthering Heights. The slime mould is intelliget i.e it memorises and learns from experience and it has no central nervous system. Plants also learn form experience and have no central nervous systems ;only roots.
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Consul
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Consul »

Belindi wrote: October 11th, 2021, 12:58 pm It depends what is meant by consciousness. Nobody can experience another's qualia, despite some lovers' wishful thinking, e.g. Cathy in Wuthering Heights. The slime mould is intelliget i.e it memorises and learns from experience and it has no central nervous system. Plants also learn form experience and have no central nervous systems ;only roots.
Intelligent behavior doesn't entail (phenomenal) consciousness. There is no subjective experience involved in the learning of slime moulds.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Belindi
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Belindi »

Consul wrote: October 11th, 2021, 1:46 pm
Belindi wrote: October 11th, 2021, 12:58 pm It depends what is meant by consciousness. Nobody can experience another's qualia, despite some lovers' wishful thinking, e.g. Cathy in Wuthering Heights. The slime mould is intelliget i.e it memorises and learns from experience and it has no central nervous system. Plants also learn form experience and have no central nervous systems ;only roots.
Intelligent behavior doesn't entail (phenomenal) consciousness. There is no subjective experience involved in the learning of slime moulds.
You and I believe so, but we can never know so.
Tegularius
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 11th, 2021, 11:42 am
Tegularius wrote: October 10th, 2021, 12:53 am There is nothing which soul can explain or express that brain physiology cannot...
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 10th, 2021, 6:33 am That's a very strong statement, whose correctness seems to depend on a number of unjustifiable assumptions. 🤔
Tegularius wrote: October 10th, 2021, 6:45 am I'm willing to listen to any assumptions you find unjustifiable; but right now I'm going to bed since it's 3:45 a.m. where I am. The brain requires sleep!
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 10th, 2021, 7:22 am Sleep well! 😴

"Any" assumptions? Here are just a few:
  • That the soul can be usefully and meaningfully defined.
  • That souls exist.
  • That humans have souls.
  • That souls are created or sustained by the brain.
  • That a brain is necessary for the continued existence of a soul.
  • That a soul could (not) be sustained otherwise than by a brain.
[I imagine there are many more such examples.]

And that last point brings us around to the topic here, or close to it: "Can souls exist without any brain at all?"
Tegularius wrote: October 10th, 2021, 5:34 pm Don't quite know how to reply in spite of feeling wide awake! Are the "assumptions" listed those you believe I made? On the surface they appear to be your objections to the improbability of there being a soul....or maybe I'm just dense today.
I believe my list is of assumptions necessary for your original statement to be founded and justified. I could be wrong, though. Believe it or not, I have been wrong in the past. [Yes, I know; it's a difficult concept for me to imagine too. 🙂]
Some are and some aren't. For me soul remains purely conceptual which has almost no probability or purpose to it except as determined by the concept itself as variously interpreted having no real center. If such a concept were never imagined, would it really change anything existentially between the coming-in and the going out? If it dies with the body, why would it even be acknowledged being at one with it?
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
SteveKlinko
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Scott wrote: July 15th, 2021, 11:56 am Sometimes there will be news headlines about someone living with "no brain" but actually the person has 10% of a brain left or such, so in those cases the news headline is using hyperbole, if not being outright dishonest. This topic is not for discussing whether someone can be conscious with a very small and/or severely damaged brain. Rather, this topic is for discussing whether a person/creature can be conscious without any brain at all.

Please do not answer with a simple yes or no, but instead make sure to provide evidence and argument to backup your answer.
From The Inter Mind website:

Artificial Intelligence is primarily implemented by a class of computer programs that can accomplish tasks that mimic Human Intelligence. Examples are things like Speech Recognition, Facial Recognition, and Self Driving Cars. With the improved computers and algorithms that we have today these kinds of computer capabilities have become increasingly more useful. But the Hype over all this is astounding. Marketing departments are trying to imply that these kinds of capabilities mean that there is an actual Conscious entity involved in the Speech Recognition, Facial Recognition, and Self Driving Car. But these are all just computer programs performing a specific task. These would have to be classified as Non-Conscious Artificial Intelligence. If Consciousness can be added to Machines then full Conscious Artificial Intelligence will be achieved.

According to the Inter Mind Model (IMM) the Speech Recognition, Facial Recognition, and Self Driving Car capabilities would reside in the Machine Physical Mind (PM) which is the computer Hardware and Software. The Machine PM serves the same purpose as our Human PM. But it seems that there is no capability for a Conscious Mind (CM) to have any Volitional effect on the Machine PM like occurs with a Human PM. The Machine PM is just mindlessly executing computer programs.

There is speculation that the Human CM might interact Volitionally with the Human PM using Quantum Mechanical effects. The Wikipedia page for Quantum Consciousness says: The Quantum Mind or Quantum Consciousness group of hypotheses propose that Classical Mechanics cannot explain Consciousness. It posits that Quantum Mechanical phenomena, such as Quantum Entanglement and Superposition, may play an important part in the Brain's function and could form the basis of an explanation of consciousness.

So we might speculate that a CM could also interact Volitionally with a Machine PM using Quantum Mechanical effects. But current technology does not allow for this in computer designs. The special connections are just not designed into the hardware at this time. We basically are not sure how to do this yet. But we have to start somewhere and the Machine Consciousness Experiment is an attempt to make such a Quantum Mechanical connection from a CM to a Machine PM.

The Quantum Mechanical connection between the CM and the PM must be a two way street. Volition allows a CM to affect a PM in order to do things in Physical Space (PSp). So in this case the connection is from the CM to the PM. A CM also needs to perceive what's going on in a PM, and therefore in PSp, so this connection must be from the PM to the CM.

For Humans, Neurons contain structures called Microtubules that operate based on Quantum Mechanical principles. If a CM (through an IM) is able to sense the state of a Human PM by sensing the state of the Microtubules then the CM might have the ability to sense all Neurons in the Human PM at the same time. For Vision the CM might be able to sense the state of the Visual Cortex areas in order to Experience what the Visual areas are currently Seeing. The CM would Experience it's own Personal Conscious Light (CL).

Maybe these Microtubules could be influenced by Quantum Fluctuations in Space-Time. So if a CM could cause a Quantum Fluctuation near a Microtubule then the CM might be able to influence the Brain in a large way if enough Microtubules are affected. This is very hypothetical but it is a logical avenue to explore.

For Machines, there are no Neurons but there are Transistors which operate on Quantum Mechanical principles. What if a CM (through an IM) could sense the state of the Transistors in an electronic circuit? A TFT Display Monitor has a Transistor at each pixel location. Maybe a CM can sense the state of all these Transistors in order to See what is currently displayed on the monitor. This is similar to how the CM senses the Visual Cortex in Humans. The Machine might then Experience it's own Personal CL similar to the Human Experience.

This situation could also work for camera chips and CMs. It may be the case that millions or billions of CMs have been experiencing what's going on in the world through Transistors for many years already. But these CMs have not had any way to affect anything in PSp because we have not designed the Volitional interfaces yet. Manufacturers are not making Androids (Robots with Consciousness) yet, just mindless Robots. But fully Conscious Androids are conceptually possible and could be a reality some day.

Since a transistor operates at the Quantum level of Physics to some extent, then maybe it could be influenced by Quantum Fluctuations in Space-Time. So if a CM can cause a Quantum Fluctuation near the device then the CM might be able to influence a circuit that is connected to the device and this circuit through amplification might be able to affect the behavior of a Machine. This would be a Volitional Interface.

The problem with Artificial Intelligence today is that Scientists are working on the Computer Processing side of things while denying that a Conscious Visual Experience, for example, would greatly improve the operation of their Machines with respect to Visual Processing. Consider that billions of years of evolutionary development produced the Conscious Visual Experience in the life forms on this planet so why do we want to deprive our Machines from using this kind of Data?
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The Beast
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by The Beast »

There is an association of the soul and the feeling of being alive
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Sculptor1
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Sculptor1 »

The Beast wrote: December 24th, 2021, 1:23 pm There is an association of the soul and the feeling of being alive
That's just a tautology of abstractions.
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The Beast
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by The Beast »

The word soul has excitement built into it. We could call it the shaking or the raising of emotion. This which exist is eternal. There is an original eternal substance; it has emanations. The emanations may be in the form of desires. However, with my desires I call the emanations evolving and the substance eternal. If a soul then, the feeling of being might be part of a whole. In addition, the emanations evolved into what we know of existence. In the soul is where we find the manifestation of freewill. Mine is to label human with soul a tautology. Somehow if we substitute the feeling of being alive with human then we have human and soul. Surprisingly. However, as above, the feeling of being alive is only part of it and so it is only partly true. In this way association is much more accurate.
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by SteveKlinko »

The Beast wrote: December 25th, 2021, 2:58 pm The word soul has excitement built into it. We could call it the shaking or the raising of emotion. This which exist is eternal. There is an original eternal substance; it has emanations. The emanations may be in the form of desires. However, with my desires I call the emanations evolving and the substance eternal. If a soul then, the feeling of being might be part of a whole. In addition, the emanations evolved into what we know of existence. In the soul is where we find the manifestation of freewill. Mine is to label human with soul a tautology. Somehow if we substitute the feeling of being alive with human then we have human and soul. Surprisingly. However, as above, the feeling of being alive is only part of it and so it is only partly true. In this way association is much more accurate.
I agree, if what you are saying is that there is an Association between Body and Soul. I would only differ by not calling it the Soul, which has way too much Religious baggage. I prefer to say there is a Conscious Mind separate from the Physical Mind (Brain), and the PM is Connected to the CM. All I have realized about the CM is simply that it is where our Conscious Experiences happen. So, I think your Association is my Connection.
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by psyreporter »

The following study may be of interest and it would challenge the reasoning in the OP of it being unjust to argue that 'a tiny bit of a brain' can be considered as 'no brain'. The study is published in Nature, one of the most prestigious scientific journals.

(2019) Life without a brain: Neuroradiological and behavioral evidence of neuroplasticity necessary to sustain brain function in the face of severe hydrocephalus
A two-year old rat, R222, survived a life-time of extreme hydrocephaly affecting the size and organization of its brain. Much of the cortex was severely thinned and replaced by cerebrospinal fluid, yet R222 had normal motor function, could hear, see, smell, and respond to tactile stimulation. R222 showed normal spatial memory as compared to age-matched controls.

In an era where brain imaging is common place around the world, more and more cases of extreme alterations in brain morphology appear in the literature and popular press. Usually caused by early hydrocephalus, large regions of the brain can be reduced and malformed. Historically, there have been numerous medical reports of severe hydrocephalus with debilitating cognitive and motor problems and shortened life spans. However, in some rare cases, the affected individuals can be highly intelligent with no obvious physical abnormalities or sensory motor deficits.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53042-3

tiny bit of a brain:
100%: ####################
5%: #

On what basis would it be valid to argue that '5% of a brain' is to be considered 'a brain'? Or: why would one intend to do so?

Is 5% of a car still 'a car'?

Can you drive with 5% of a car or would one be obligated to consider to be driving 'without a car' when one would be driving with 5% of a car?
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by LuckyR »

psyreporter wrote: December 31st, 2021, 4:19 am The following study may be of interest and it would challenge the reasoning in the OP of it being unjust to argue that 'a tiny bit of a brain' can be considered as 'no brain'. The study is published in Nature, one of the most prestigious scientific journals.

(2019) Life without a brain: Neuroradiological and behavioral evidence of neuroplasticity necessary to sustain brain function in the face of severe hydrocephalus
A two-year old rat, R222, survived a life-time of extreme hydrocephaly affecting the size and organization of its brain. Much of the cortex was severely thinned and replaced by cerebrospinal fluid, yet R222 had normal motor function, could hear, see, smell, and respond to tactile stimulation. R222 showed normal spatial memory as compared to age-matched controls.

In an era where brain imaging is common place around the world, more and more cases of extreme alterations in brain morphology appear in the literature and popular press. Usually caused by early hydrocephalus, large regions of the brain can be reduced and malformed. Historically, there have been numerous medical reports of severe hydrocephalus with debilitating cognitive and motor problems and shortened life spans. However, in some rare cases, the affected individuals can be highly intelligent with no obvious physical abnormalities or sensory motor deficits.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-53042-3

tiny bit of a brain:
100%: ####################
5%: #

On what basis would it be valid to argue that '5% of a brain' is to be considered 'a brain'? Or: why would one intend to do so?

Is 5% of a car still 'a car'?

Can you drive with 5% of a car or would one be obligated to consider to be driving 'without a car' when one would be driving with 5% of a car?
Did you even read the article? The rat had 93% of the cortical volume of a normal rat.

"At first glance, one assumes there is a significant loss of cortical volume based on the tissue representing the cortical mantle in the hindbrain of R222. However, the total cortical volume of R222 is only 7% less than age matched controls (see Fig. 1)."

So yes, driving 93% of a car is driving a car.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by psyreporter »

LuckyR wrote: January 1st, 2022, 4:26 am Did you even read the article? The rat had 93% of the cortical volume of a normal rat.

"At first glance, one assumes there is a significant loss of cortical volume based on the tissue representing the cortical mantle in the hindbrain of R222. However, the total cortical volume of R222 is only 7% less than age matched controls (see Fig. 1)."

So yes, driving 93% of a car is driving a car.
Are you certain that the rat had 97% of a brain?

Title of paper: Life without a brain: ...

The paper's introduction compares the case with that of humans that managed to live a normal life with merely 5-10% brain tissue. It doesn't mention a percentage of brain tissue that is missing but instead mentions that 'much of the cortex is missing'.

I didn't read much further, since I am not a specialist that could examine validity of a study. I merely intended to discuss the validity of the idea that it is 'dishonest' to publish such a study with the mention 'no brain' or 'without a brain' in the subject.

If you are correct, in that case I would agree that it could be considered a misleading title.
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Belindi
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Re: Can consciousness exist without any brain at all?

Post by Belindi »

Consul wrote:
It should be clear that in the context of this thread "experience" is used in the psychological sense only: mental, inner, subjective experience. In this sense dead bodies or cadavers experience nothing. They undergo decay, but there is nothing it is like for a dead body to decay.
We probably all agree to the above.

The nature of "mental, inner, subjective experience" is that it is experience of something: it's impossible to experience nothing , so that while we experience dying , and we experience both the dying and the death of a finger or an arm, we don't experience brain death.We do however experience our brain's dying e.g. Alzheimer's disease which causes much anxiety to the patient who suffers from it. But we never experience a dead brain like we might experience a dead finger or a dead arm.
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