The Reality of Existence

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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stevie wrote: September 16th, 2021, 7:27 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: September 16th, 2021, 9:28 am What does it mean for something to exist. Any and all comments welcome.
I don't need a video to answer this question. For something to exist all that is needed is a subject that is intent on existence.
Stevie!

Thanks for your contribution!

Couple of questions:

1. Are you referring to some kind of subjective truth associated with existence?
2. Do you think that the concept of 'intent' (as you suggest) is a metaphysical quality/feature of conscious existence?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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chewybrian wrote: September 16th, 2021, 3:37 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: September 16th, 2021, 12:16 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: September 16th, 2021, 11:12 am I have a thing about videos on computers, so I'll wait to see who comments, and what they say. But I, too, am a big fan of metaphysics and metaphysical questions.
PC1

Thanks. Albeit I'm not big fan of Dennett (for obvious reasons), oddly enough, I happen to agree with him in the (entire) interview (he discusses dualism, the role pf philosophy in general, etc..)… .
I am curious what your obvious reasons are. It felt like a chore to watch after you said he was in there, as I don't care for him, either. But, I have a suspicion we might have different reasons. I thought it was noteworthy that he said, as usual (if a little more kindly than usual) that dualism is a dead end. Then, toward the end, they pretty well said that consciousness was the one remaining puzzle for science (as if!).

If you buy that science has pretty well solved or is about to solve every question but "what is consciousness?", then why wouldn't you be drawn straight to dualism? Why is it not fair to think that if consciousness was material, that we would have discovered some clues as to what kind of thing or event it was? It seems like we have lots of correlations, but no direct access to consciousness itself (other than me to mine and, presumably, you to yours).

I'm talking the long way around to admitting that I still consider myself a dualist, and I am shocked that such a large percentage of would-be or actual philosophers don't fall in line with Descartes (not about God, but just about the mind being something different than everything else). It behaves differently, and (perhaps, according to what they seemed to say in the video) it is the final frontier, or even the only thing or event that science never has and never will understand and explain. Why would something so up close and personal to all of us be so elusive to describe and understand unless it was different from everything else that we understand? Why would it play by a completely different set of rules unless it was a completely different animal?

Can you erase the distinction between mind and matter with anything other than determinism? Determism seems to be a way of saying that the mind must be like everything else because everything else is like everything else. That doesn't sound like much of a case to me.
CB!

To get to your other questions, no, I agree with the last interview where consciousness remained a mystery vis a vis science.

I agree, if consciousness was completely physical, then physics (science) would have already had the theories in place, just like there are other physical theories about existence (BB, initial conditions, entropy, laws of conservation, laws of gravity, etc. etc.). Of course, the irony is that the existence of gravity itself including the laws that describe it are metaphysical...

To me, dualism is a logical consequence of the perceived reality of conscious existence.

I'm not following your last point about determinism... ?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Reality of Existence

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

ExistenceofSelf wrote: September 16th, 2021, 2:16 pm ****(This is a Social Engineer's Perspective)****

You said; "What does it mean for something to exist."

(I will take that as more of a question. This is about the question and not the video. The concept of to exist or existence is a complex topic. I will simplify the information in perspective.)


**** Introduction ****

Being forced to exist is a burden we all share, not because we exist, but due to the understanding that we exist. This understanding stands on a perspective measurement of ourselves in proportion to each other and everything else. This is to give perspective of ourselves to reason with a concept we invented for ourselves.


**** What Is Existence? ****

The objective concept of existence is, inevitable constructs of sufficient/insufficient and insufficient/sufficient mathematical quantitative translations that manifest into a subjective experience through perspective observation.

The subjective concept of existence is, experience in translation within and of an individual's perspective self.

Existence manifests subjectively/objectively through observational measurement of movement, to formulate internal and external environmental perspective experience. Existence manifests objectively/subjectively through inevitable mathematics regardless of observation or perspective experience. Objective existence only facilitates the subjectivity of perspective experience.


**** What Does It Mean To Exist? ****

That answer is determined on how an individual defines their perspective self as experiencing in-proportion to the individual's external environment for reasoning of themselves. However, there is still a core perspective to ground on when "measuring."

There are cognitive abstraction of layers that can be measured as constructs of consciousness. Artificial Intelligence is being constructed using layers to eventually equate into perspective consciousness for example. Consciousness is simply a series of realizations that organize into an individual realizing themselves in experience and observation. The complexity that builds from this only adds to the perspective of being more "conscious." Detract, and the complexity becomes more automated or less "conscious."

To exist and existence are subjectively parallel symmetries that in concept are objectively the same and are made different by perspective.

To exist refers to social influence from the concept of "life." Existence is an extension of internal reflection that derives from the concept, to exist. A good example is the concept; "I am therefor I think, and I think therefor I am." Those two in reference are the same, however, different in experience in what an individual has to think of first.

To exist is in reference to I am, and existence is in reference to I think. I am then I think, or, I think then I am.


**** The Reality And Illusion Of Existence ****

When the math comes full circle to itself, it will either rip apart or come together. Zero or 100% is the inevitable conclusion of calculation. If all information comes together, then the information will neutralize itself into 100% quantitative resolve. In theory this is the nothing of something and information can continue building into dimension. If all information crashes in on itself or rips apart, then the information goes back to nothing and has to start all over again.

Illusion and Reality are in equal spectrum to each other. Reality can be illusion and illusion can be reality. In theory, it was our illusion that started our reality, and our reality that affirms our illusion. The cycle of this is what keeps an individual in existence or existing.


**** Conclusion ****

The concept of existence or to exist truly does not matter. The calculation is not necessary for mathematics to occur and build upon itself. Existential perspective information is only needed for complex information to help resolve insufficient prompts and calculations of circumstance and experience. An individual realizing themselves as existing is simply a symptom of natural occurrence, not by influential design for specification.

To measure yourself is to measure existence. To measure your existence is to measure self.

When an individual has established their perspective purpose and reasoning for themselves, then they will get a proportionate meaning of perspective measurement for existence and the existence of themselves.

Respectfully,
Lloyd R Shisler (Social Engineer)
Hello Lloyd!

Thanks for your contribution. Here are my thoughts/questions (please note they are not rhetorical):

1. In the (your) introduction, are you saying that existence, and the actual thought of existing or existence, are two different things?

2. What is the actual "concept" that we use to "invent" what I interpret (you as saying) as, self-awareness?

3. Are you in-fact saying that our mathematical concepts (objective truth's) only give us an approximation of (the reality of) existence?

4. Are you saying that objective truth's are subordinate to subjective truth's?

5. Is your notion of "detract" mean that if one were to take away their self-awareness and intellect, then emergent instinct would preclude the need wonder what , when, how, & the why's of existence? I asl that because of your consequent use of "automated".

6. Are you saying existence precedes thinking about existence, or the other way around? If you are think about the Existential ethos of existence preceeds essence, you obviously would have to demonstrate that human value systems are not intrinsic to the species.

7. Is reality illusionary much like the notion or experience of Time itself? Or are they two different things-in-themselves?

8. Could 'reconciling that illusion' be done when a ToE is discovered? And if so, how would consciousness, in theory, be explained?

9. The "conclusion" does seem to support a kind of SK notion that 'all is subjectivity' and/or provides for an existential ethos. If so (don't really have a problem with that/ala Berkley's Metaphysics and SK's philosophy), how do we reconcile objective truth's (mathematics) that so effectively describe the world (i.e., laws of gravity, engineering calculations when building/creating objects, etc.)?

One Existential conclusion that I would'nt take exception to would be:

On the existential view, to understand what a human being is, it is not enough to know all the truths that natural science—including the science of psychology—could tell us. The dualist who holds that human beings are composed of independent substances—“mind” and “body”—is no better off in this regard than is the physicalist who holds that human existence can be adequately explained in terms of the fundamental physical constituents of the universe. Existentialism does not deny the validity of the basic categories of physics, biology, psychology, and the other sciences (categories such as matter, causality, force, function, organism, development, motivation, and so on). It claims only that human beings cannot be fully understood in terms of them. Nor can such an understanding be gained by supplementing our scientific picture with a moral one. Categories of moral theory such as intention, blame, responsibility, character, duty, virtue, and the like do capture important aspects of the human condition, but neither moral thinking (governed by the norms of the good and the right) nor scientific thinking (governed by the norm of truth) suffices.



Would you take exception to things like; intention, blame, responsibility, character, duty, virtue and even the will itself, are real but exist in a metaphysically abstract realm of consciousness/self-awareness?

Thnk you again for your thoughts... !
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 9:48 am if consciousness was completely physical, then physics (science) would have already had the theories in place, just like there are other physical theories about existence (BB, initial conditions, entropy, laws of conservation, laws of gravity, etc. etc.). Of course, the irony is that the existence of gravity itself including the laws that describe it are metaphysical...
Because science hasn't finished already, as you ought to know.
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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PoeticUniverse wrote: September 17th, 2021, 3:33 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 9:48 am if consciousness was completely physical, then physics (science) would have already had the theories in place, just like there are other physical theories about existence (BB, initial conditions, entropy, laws of conservation, laws of gravity, etc. etc.). Of course, the irony is that the existence of gravity itself including the laws that describe it are metaphysical...
Because science hasn't finished already, as you ought to know.
PU!

Is that (science) like your rhetorical poetry?
:P
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Reality of Existence

Post by Terrapin Station »

3017Metaphysician wrote: September 16th, 2021, 9:28 am What does it mean for something to exist.
Why do you continue to think that that is perplexing?
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 3:38 pm rhetorical
Not 'rhetoric' but exact and logical that would be near impossible to undo. Want to try? What's right or wrong about the content of the poem? Would you be able to say?
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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@3017Metaphysican

Apart from the video, which I did not feel to be particularly inspiring, the question does seem to down to words rather than concepts. In particular, I wonder how different if rather than your idea being about the 'reality of existence', the words were reversed to the 'existence of reality'. I am not saying this as a criticism of your question in itself, but, as one of how metaphysical concepts are so bound up with the sentences which we construct.
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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PoeticUniverse wrote: September 17th, 2021, 4:42 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 3:38 pm rhetorical
Not 'rhetoric' but exact and logical that would be near impossible to undo. Want to try? What's right or wrong about the content of the poem? Would you be able to say?
Gosh PU, what's logical about some of your psuedo prose poetry? We all know you purposely commit many logical fallacies when you try to engage in philosophical discourse (using poetry). Most of us (including yourself) don't mind because of the entertainment value, as it's not intended as discourse.

Don't take this the wrong way, but the logical fallacies I see are arguments from ignorance, from authority, and Homunculus type arguments. For instance, support your supposition(s) about metaphysics and science?

Actually, keep it simple and start with your 'metaphysical statement' :D
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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JackDaydream wrote: September 17th, 2021, 5:08 pm @3017Metaphysican

Apart from the video, which I did not feel to be particularly inspiring, the question does seem to down to words rather than concepts. In particular, I wonder how different if rather than your idea being about the 'reality of existence', the words were reversed to the 'existence of reality'. I am not saying this as a criticism of your question in itself, but, as one of how metaphysical concepts are so bound up with the sentences which we construct.
Hello JD!

No worries critique all you like... ! Are you trying to advance a philosophical position? Feel free to put something together that explains your concerns...
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Reality of Existence

Post by PoeticUniverse »

3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 5:21 pm
Don't take this the wrong way, but the logical fallacies I see are arguments from ignorance, from authority, and Homunculus type arguments. For instance, support your supposition(s) about metaphysics and science? [/quote]

You generalized without showing any particulars, so the argument as I laid it out stands as the Answer to Existence. Are you able to undo any of it? 2nd request.

Nor is its contents about poetry. All is plainly stated in regular language so you should have no problems attending to it. Nor is it 'entertainment', nor 'pseudo' or any other of your lame attempts to dismiss it. Those are just dumb human tricks easily seen through. I still say that you can't undo the argument. Don't waste our time about some 'homunculus' that not even mentioned. After you undo it, please replace it with your well-defined argument convincingly covering the same ground as the Answer to Existence.
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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PoeticUniverse wrote: September 17th, 2021, 5:51 pm
3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 5:21 pm
Don't take this the wrong way, but the logical fallacies I see are arguments from ignorance, from authority, and Homunculus type arguments. For instance, support your supposition(s) about metaphysics and science?
You generalized without showing any particulars, so the argument as I laid it out stands as the Answer to Existence. Are you able to undo any of it? 2nd request.

Nor is its contents about poetry. All is plainly stated in regular language so you should have no problems attending to it. Nor is it 'entertainment', nor 'pseudo' or any other of your lame attempts to dismiss it. Those are just dumb human tricks easily seen through. I still say that you can't undo the argument. Don't waste our time about some 'homunculus' that not even mentioned. After you undo it, please replace it with your well-defined argument convincingly covering the same ground as the Answer to Existence.
[/quote]

Hey PU!

No need to take it personally or emotionally, but please be reminded that yet another logical fallacy was just committed. At the risk of redundancy, I interpret your reply as a type of ad hoc argument which many of us recognize as a fallacious rhetorical strategy very commonplace. As you may know, it occurs when someone's claim is threatened with counterevidence, so they come up with a rationale to dismiss the counterevidence, hoping to protect their original claim. As mentioned, maybe monder some ideas about how to support your metaphysics claim.

There is certainly no shame in committing such fallacy, only shame in continuing along its path :lol:
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 9:48 am
chewybrian wrote: September 16th, 2021, 3:37 pm Can you erase the distinction between mind and matter with anything other than determinism? Determism seems to be a way of saying that the mind must be like everything else because everything else is like everything else. That doesn't sound like much of a case to me.
CB!
...
I'm not following your last point about determinism... ?
OK, so the way I see determinism is the way Dennet presents it in the video (and consistently in other times I've seen him). He tells us that we had other mysteries in the past, and that science resolved them. We didn't know what the sun was until we did, for example. He thinks that it is inevitable that we will someday understand consciousness in a similar way, and see that it is material. When you boil it down, it amounts to saying that consciousness must be material because everything else eventually turned out to be so. If that assumption suffices for you then so be it.

As I look about the room, though, I understand the nature of all but two things (or at least I believe I could). I can weigh or clock speed and such for my body, for the television or the chair, for the light and sound in the room and all but the two things. When I flip the switch and the light comes on, I truly know that it was not correlation but cause and effect, and I can repeat the effect in another room and show why it happens to prove the case to my own satisfaction and that of most rational people.

The two special things are the experience of me and my dog. We have excuses if we don't fully understand dark matter or black holes, since they are all a gabillion miles away. But, we do understand everything in the room save my awareness and hers. If these things are material, then surely they are here in the room, not off with the dark matter. For me, the fact that this is the one holdout is telling, and it would take more than an assumption for me to ignore the obvious special nature of consciousness. I will assume it is not like all the other things, rather than assuming that we are able to understand everything around us but the nearest and most precious thing. No carrying on to God or anything else for me, but I am just saying that consciousness does not present as being material, so I will assume it is not.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: The Reality of Existence

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3017Metaphysican

I am just contemplating the concept of the reality of existence and wondering about the alternative of the existence of reality, as phrased ideas, The concepts of both reality and existence are used in common language and are central to embodied existence but they are philosophical concepts too. Existence is something which we believe we experience and we probably do not believe that it will last forever, and 'reality' is in many ways a state of perception of the person's state of consciousness. So, both concepts are about agreed aspects of experience which individuals experience generally, but subjectively as living beings.
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Re: The Reality of Existence

Post by PoeticUniverse »

3017Metaphysician wrote: September 17th, 2021, 6:07 pm No need to take it personally or emotionally, but please be reminded that yet another logical fallacy was just committed. At the risk of redundancy, I interpret your reply as a type of ad hoc argument which many of us recognize as a fallacious rhetorical strategy very commonplace. As you may know, it occurs when someone's claim is threatened with counterevidence, so they come up with a rationale to dismiss the counterevidence, hoping to protect their original claim. As mentioned, maybe monder some ideas about how to support your metaphysics claim.

There is certainly no shame in committing such fallacy, only shame in continuing along its path :lol:
No details, just more generalizations about "ad hoc" (need to show), "fallacious" (need to show), "emotional" (show the emotion in the logical treatise), "counter evidence" (show this evidence), "metaphysical claim" (show, for real life physics is used), mentioning "shame" (show what's right or wrong instead of the hint of shaming for being steadfast), "fallacy" (show what it is).

3rd and final request! Three strikes and you are out!

I'm really starting to think that you can't undo it. You generalized twice in a row, as obvious to all readers, not showing any specifics at all.

Want to generalize some more to show the inability to attend to the Answer to Existence? The piece is even divided into chunks so that it is all the more able to be digested.

Cut the blah, blah sideline tangent attempt going into "rationale" and cut to the chase of putting some meat in your reply as to what's right and wrong about the information. Don't let me and others like terrapin station be right about your continued avoidance; so, spit out the details and also cite your correct answer to Existence.

Think deeper before labeling without substantiating again, plus show the counter evidence. Push back without providing the 'why' doesn't cut it, and never will, even thrice in a row.
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