Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Steve3007
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:I agree, although I didn't realise we were doing that. I thought Sculptor1 and I were using the words to carry the same meaning. Clearly, I was mistaken.
Yeah, it did look to me as though your were using those two words to carry the same meaning. That was my concern. I've noticed in the past that it seems quite common to see belief as synonymous with faith and then to see faith pejoratively as some kind of "I'm a sheep blindly following the herd" thing. The result is, for example a poster who used to be on here and who called himself, at different times, "creation" and "evolution", who professed not to believe anything. Presumably because of this usage of the word "belief".

For my part, if I say "I believe it's going to rain today" I'm just saying that on the balance of probabilities I think it's going to rain today. I wouldn't see that as particularly closely related to "I have faith that it's going to rain today".

I guess I should probably be talking to the OP. In the first line of that it says:
JackDaydream wrote:In referring to belief I am speaking of the ideas which a person chooses to adopt on a personal level, including values and specific views.
It's vague, but it sets up the word "belief" to be used in a strange and non-standard way from the start. It looks like Jack is trying to equate belief with some vaguely defined combination of confirmation bias, emotional state, prejudices and faith, for the purpose of contrasting it with knowledge.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Steve3007

The point which I was trying to make is the difference between what knowledge is available and how it is drawn upon as an aspect of personal conviction. In particular, I am aware that I often use the phrase, 'I believe' and this was based on advice which I was given at some point in education to take ownership of one's ideas. However, there may be a growing trend to not say I believe. This may be done to make an argument appear less subjective. But, in doing so, it may lead to ideas being presented as facts. There may also be some tendencies within philosophy to present ideas in such a way as if they are established facts. This may be on the basis of empirical knowledge and research, but sometimes it may blur the presentation of ideas if they are not backed up clearly. Also, the subjective nature of interpretation of ideas may be glossed over and ignored,
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote:I agree, although I didn't realise we were doing that. I thought Sculptor1 and I were using the words to carry the same meaning. Clearly, I was mistaken.
Steve3007 wrote: October 13th, 2021, 7:54 am Yeah, it did look to me as though you were using those two words to carry the same meaning. That was my concern. I've noticed in the past that it seems quite common to see belief as synonymous with faith, and then to see faith pejoratively as some kind of "I'm a sheep blindly following the herd" thing. The result is, for example, a poster who used to be on here and who called himself, at different times, "creation" and "evolution", who professed not to believe anything. Presumably because of this usage of the word "belief".

For my part, if I say "I believe it's going to rain today" I'm just saying that on the balance of probabilities I think it's going to rain today. I wouldn't see that as particularly closely related to "I have faith that it's going to rain today".
Yes, I see what you're getting at, and I agree. I think the problem stems, though, from "knowledge" rather than "belief" and "faith". I think "knowledge" is used, maybe by analytic philosophers more than the rest of us (?), to mean certain knowledge. And the problem arises because almost no 'knowledge' is certain or - excuse the "O" word, please - objective. This leaves belief to cover almost all 'knowledge', which distorts the intended meanings of all of these words.

For myself, I stick to 'belief' for most purposes, as it most accurately expresses what I'm trying to say. I reserve 'knowledge' for "Objective Reality exists", and for those 'truths' that are defined to be true, whereby they are trivially-certain. So I don't use 'knowledge' much at all. 😉 And as for 'faith', it is very roughly synonymous with 'belief', but there are differences too.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:26 pm [To Steve3007] However, there may be a growing trend to not say I believe. This may be done to make an argument appear less subjective. But, in doing so, it may lead to ideas being presented as facts.
Yes, such misrepresentation is quite common. People use it, I think, to give greater authority to what they're saying, as you say (in slightly different words). But it is deception, nothing more.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Pattern-chaser

I remember being on an academic course a few years ago and being told that in writing the essays for it the word 'I' should not be used at all, and a possible alternative was to refer to oneself as 'the author'. This seemed to be in line with the neutrality of 'evidence-based practice'. Of course, it can be seen as problematic academically if a person is simply writing personal 'opinions', but, on the other hand, the possibility of neutrality is questionable. It could be asked whether it is possible to approach any area of thought or life without some basic values, So, I would question the authenticity of the authority of writing which tries to make the author's voice practically invisible.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:01 am
Sculptor1 wrote:Faith and belief are an ever present problem.
Pattern-chaser wrote:Faith and belief are ever-present, but not necessarily problematic. Faith and belief are what we use to overcome uncertainty, and uncertainty is pretty much universal.
Sculptor1 wrote:No they are always problematic. Faith is the death of reason and belief is a poor substitute for knowledge.
Pattern-chaser wrote:As to the latter: yes!!! But dealing with uncertainty is part of embracing it. And, in the absence of certainty, and certain knowledge, we must use what we have: faith and belief.
In my view, the two different concepts of faith and belief shouldn't be conflated together like this.
They are two sides of the same coin.
The words can be used almost interchangably and there is not much benefit to be found drawing distinctions between them.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 13th, 2021, 7:16 am
Sculptor1 wrote:Faith and belief are an ever present problem.
Pattern-chaser wrote:Faith and belief are ever-present, but not necessarily problematic. Faith and belief are what we use to overcome uncertainty, and uncertainty is pretty much universal.
Sculptor1 wrote:No they are always problematic. Faith is the death of reason and belief is a poor substitute for knowledge.
Pattern-chaser wrote:As to the latter: yes!!! But dealing with uncertainty is part of embracing it. And, in the absence of certainty, and certain knowledge, we must use what we have: faith and belief.
Steve3007 wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:01 am In my view, the two different concepts of faith and belief shouldn't be conflated together like this.
I agree, although I didn't realise we were doing that. I thought Sculptor1 and I were using the words to carry the same meaning. Clearly, I was mistaken. 😊
I think we can agree on that at least.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Steve3007 »

Sculptor1 wrote:They [faith and belief] are two sides of the same coin.
The words can be used almost interchangably and there is not much benefit to be found drawing distinctions between them.
Only with one very specific usage of the word "belief". I hardly ever hear that word used like that.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

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JackDaydream wrote:The point which I was trying to make is the difference between what knowledge is available and how it is drawn upon as an aspect of personal conviction. In particular, I am aware that I often use the phrase, 'I believe' and this was based on advice which I was given at some point in education to take ownership of one's ideas. However, there may be a growing trend to not say I believe. This may be done to make an argument appear less subjective. But, in doing so, it may lead to ideas being presented as facts. There may also be some tendencies within philosophy to present ideas in such a way as if they are established facts. This may be on the basis of empirical knowledge and research, but sometimes it may blur the presentation of ideas if they are not backed up clearly. Also, the subjective nature of interpretation of ideas may be glossed over and ignored,
Interesting. I don't think I've ever been given that advice. I (and, I think, most other English speaking people that I know) would use the word "believe" to simply say what they think to probably be the case about something.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: October 14th, 2021, 11:45 am I would question the authenticity of the authority of writing which tries to make the author's voice practically invisible.
Yes, use of passive voice is now recognised to obscure some aspects of meaning. It is sometimes used to avoid admitting responsibility for one's actions. "The subject was killed" sounds much better for me than "I killed the subject"! 😉
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by LuckyR »

Steve3007 wrote: October 15th, 2021, 6:24 am
JackDaydream wrote:The point which I was trying to make is the difference between what knowledge is available and how it is drawn upon as an aspect of personal conviction. In particular, I am aware that I often use the phrase, 'I believe' and this was based on advice which I was given at some point in education to take ownership of one's ideas. However, there may be a growing trend to not say I believe. This may be done to make an argument appear less subjective. But, in doing so, it may lead to ideas being presented as facts. There may also be some tendencies within philosophy to present ideas in such a way as if they are established facts. This may be on the basis of empirical knowledge and research, but sometimes it may blur the presentation of ideas if they are not backed up clearly. Also, the subjective nature of interpretation of ideas may be glossed over and ignored,
Interesting. I don't think I've ever been given that advice. I (and, I think, most other English speaking people that I know) would use the word "believe" to simply say what they think to probably be the case about something.
Very true, that is the most common casual usage of believe. In cases of future events (where the situation is currently unknowable) it is the correct formal usage as well. OTOH in the realm of knowable (yet currently unknown to the speaker) information a better word would be "guess".
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by JackDaydream »

@LuckyR

I would be happy to use the term 'guess' personally because I am not in favour of definitives personally. But, I have found that, in general, people prefer very definite answers and, often I find that people get extremely annoyed with me as they see it as 'sitting on the fence'. In particular, I don't wish to be put into a box of theist, atheist or even agnosticism, because I find all the labels a bit too restrictive, with no room to maneuvering.. I prefer honesty about my own wavering and, sometimes, it may be that the individuals who argue for specific positions so strongly do so, to hide from their own uncertainty. This applies in many areas beyond religious issues, including political beliefs.
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: October 15th, 2021, 6:16 am
Sculptor1 wrote:They [faith and belief] are two sides of the same coin.
The words can be used almost interchangably and there is not much benefit to be found drawing distinctions between them.
Only with one very specific usage of the word "belief". I hardly ever hear that word used like that.
Which usage is that?
Steve3007
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Steve3007 »

Sculptor1 wrote:Which usage is that?
As a rough and ready rule, I'd say it's the usage in which the word "believe/belief" tends to be followed by the word "in". For example: "I believe in Father Christmas; I believe in peace on Earth" (ELP). Or, of course, "I believe in God" (Cliff Richard?). But, in my experience at least, that usage is the exception. Just the other day, for example, I looked at the sky and said "Do you know, I believe it's going to rain". I wasn't proclaiming my faith in the rain gods there. Or when Victor Meldrew says "I don't believe it!" he's not declaring his atheism. Or when that Harry Enfield character says "Now I don't believe you wanted to that". That's not a declaration of lack of faith either.

I'm sure I could find examples from real people too! :D
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Re: Belief and Knowledge: How Can They Be Distinguished and Balanced?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: October 16th, 2021, 7:49 am
Sculptor1 wrote:Which usage is that?
As a rough and ready rule, I'd say it's the usage in which the word "believe/belief" tends to be followed by the word "in". For example: "I believe in Father Christmas; I believe in peace on Earth" (ELP). Or, of course, "I believe in God" (Cliff Richard?). But, in my experience at least, that usage is the exception. Just the other day, for example, I looked at the sky and said "Do you know, I believe it's going to rain". I wasn't proclaiming my faith in the rain gods there. Or when Victor Meldrew says "I don't believe it!" he's not declaring his atheism. Or when that Harry Enfield character says "Now I don't believe you wanted to that". That's not a declaration of lack of faith either.

I'm sure I could find examples from real people too! :D
I disagree entirely. I would never say I beleive it's going to rain. I might say, as most people do; I think its gonna rain.
These theatrical examples are just that, theatrical. Few people use that term in place of think in normal parlance.

SInce there is a serious ambiguity in the word beleive I never use it myself.
Last edited by Sculptor1 on October 16th, 2021, 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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