Does Causality Come First?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
GE Morton
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: October 11th, 2021, 9:20 pm
That's my point, too. Unless we limit the meaning lf "cause" there are infinite causes for every event, and every event has infinite consequences. Flipping the switch (which Morton says is last of the necessary and sufficient conditions) doesn't work unless the filaments in the light bulb work and the electrical ciruits work.
That's true, but the light is not ON when only those conditions are satisfied. And that is the event of which we're asking for the cause.
In addition, it is not the last condition: that might by the heating of the filaments, or the rush of electrons into the bulb, or any of the many (almost infinite) things triggered by flipping the switch. We say that flipping the switch "causes" the light to come on because it is both the conscious act of a person, and a handle even we non-electicians can manipulate.
When I said earlier, "Flipping the switch is the last of the necessary and sufficient conditions for activating the light to be satisfied, and hence its cause," I should have added "as that term is normally used." You're right, of course, that any alleged cause is but part of an endless chain of causes. You also make a good point in noting that the events we point to as causes are often those involving some human action.
GE Morton
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: October 12th, 2021, 10:13 am
I wonder, however, if "randomness" and "probability" are simply convenient fictions. A card player -- after the deck has been fairly shuffled -- reasons that there is a 1/52 chance that he will be dealt the Ace of Spades as his first card. From HIS perspective, this is reasonable -- it is the best he can do. However, one need not be omniscient to know that there is either a 0% chance or a 100% chance that the top card in the deck is the Ace of Spades. One need only see the other side of the first card.
No, there is not a 0% or 100% chance that the card will be the ace of spades. It will either be the ace or not, but those are not "chances." A "chance," or probability, of an event is the ratio of observed outcomes to the total total number of observations (per the frequency theory), or of a given outcome to the number of possible outcomes (possible outcomes theory). "Chance" is not defined for a single event; it is only defined for an event that is a member of a larger class of events.
So seeming randomness and probability function may be (as they are for the card player) convenient fictions which, given the current state of knowledge, are the best we can do.
The "best we can do" being to find the deterministic causes for all events, because, for us, that is in what genuine explanation consists. Hence all the various "interpretations" of QM, and the Hidden Variable theories Steve cited.
Steve3007
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by Steve3007 »

GE Morton wrote:The "best we can do" being to find the deterministic causes for all events, because, for us, that is in what genuine explanation consists. Hence all the various "interpretations" of QM, and the Hidden Variable theories Steve cited.
So, in your view, if a physical theory states that some events don't have entirely deterministic causes, but have probabilistic elements to them, would you regard that as not a genuine explanation? i.e. Would you be unsatisfied with interpretations of QM that rule out hidden variables and propose that the apparent randomness is (overused word) fundamental?

I think one of the interesting properties of physical theories that have probability and statistics built into them is just how close they can come to being deterministic on a macro scale. Not just QM but classical thermodynamics. The second law of thermodynamics was famously described as the most rock solid and certain in all of physics, yet it's built on probability and statistics.
PoeticUniverse
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Steve3007 wrote: October 12th, 2021, 1:48 pm interpretations of QM that rule out hidden variables and propose that the apparent randomness is (overused word) fundamental?
The QM wave function proceeds deterministically but its 'collapse' due to an interaction gives a probabilistic but unitary percentage in that the cases would add up to 100%, which is at least a statistical consistency.

Various proposals:

1. At the bedrock of Realty, per Anton Zeillinger's 3-sigma result, all has to be random there, which seems philosophically true that it should be random because the causeless bedrock would have no input.

2. The wave function goes along deterministically and the interaction result is a probability because the whole universe can't be taken into account as to its inputs.

3. A 'particle' is spread out as a field quantum and so there is a built-in fog of probability as to where it is to be found.
GE Morton
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by GE Morton »

Steve3007 wrote: October 12th, 2021, 1:48 pm
So, in your view, if a physical theory states that some events don't have entirely deterministic causes, but have probabilistic elements to them, would you regard that as not a genuine explanation? i.e. Would you be unsatisfied with interpretations of QM that rule out hidden variables and propose that the apparent randomness is (overused word) fundamental?
Any chain of events will have "probabilistic elements," i.e., could be described or predicted probabilistically, i.e., we could truthfully say, "The probability that the sun will rise tomorrow is 99.999 . . .%." But we wouldn't count that as an explanation for why the sun rises.

I think subscribers to the Copenhagen interpretation would be delighted to discover a coherent, defensible, empirically confirmable deterministic explanation of quantum phenomena. But they don't think there is one; some phenomena, such as when and why a particular radium atom fissions, just may have no cause, a possibility we can't rule out on logical grounds. But we're "wired" (according to Kant) to keep looking for one.
PoeticUniverse
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by PoeticUniverse »

GE Morton wrote: October 12th, 2021, 8:17 pm such as when and why a particular radium atom fissions
Yet, in between the Geiger counter clicks, would there be a why and when it doesn't fission? The click and no click states are different and so…? This is a difference in something.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote:I don't know, but it seems a reasonable hypothesis to consider in greater depth...
Steve3007 wrote: October 12th, 2021, 11:13 am Yes, well, when you mentioned probability functions I thought maybe you were talking about the probability density function in QM.
I intended to describe something similar to the QM function; "similar" in the most general terms. I hadn't considered the extension you offered, but it seemed to make a sort of sense to me when you did. Food for thought.... 👍
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Steve3007
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by Steve3007 »

PoeticUniverse wrote:Yet, in between the Geiger counter clicks, would there be a why and when it doesn't fission? The click and no click states are different and so…? This is a difference in something.
The Geiger counter clicks happen as a result of the Geiger counter detecting a particle. Say an alpha particle, for example. The QM reason why the alpha particle gets emitted is essentially quantum tunneling. i.e. The uncertainty principle describes the fact that there is a fundamental uncertainty in the position and velocity of the particles that make up atomic nuclei, including alpha particles. That means that even if there is a "potential barrier" (essentially a force) holding the alpha particle in, there is a finite probability that it will appear on the other side of that barrier and escape. That is very metaphorically referred to as "tunneling" through the barrier. So the reason why it's impossible to predict the length of time between specific clicks of the Geiger counter in the uncertainty principle and its application in quantum tunneling.

But what you can predict is the average length of time between clicks of the Geiger counter. The more clicks you measure, the more accurately you can calculate what the average time between them will be. That's just one example of where uncertain, probabilistic behaviour can, when measured statistically (i.e. averages of large numbers), get arbitrarily close to being deterministic.

So it would be a mistake to think that a universe based on individually uncertain and probabilistic events cannot come arbitrarily close to being deterministic.
Belindi
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by Belindi »

GEMorton , October 9 quoted:
Hume argued that there is no necessary connection between events we deem causes and those we deem their effects. All we can observe with regard to "A causes B" is that A precedes B and is "constantly conjoined" with B. But there is no contradiction in affirming B and denying A. He argues that the "necessary connection" is supplied by our own minds, an inductive inference we are psychologically impelled to make, and not one forced upon us by anything discernible in reality.
Constant correlations are observed, and necessary connections are supplied by our own minds. However not only necessary connections but also selections of preceding or circumstantial events are supplied by our own minds. We choose what phenomena we are to observe as material to correlate. The phrase 'proximal cause' normally refers to short time lapses or minimal spaces between phenomena, and the extra predictive value we tend to add to short time lapses and minimal spaces is itself supplied by our own minds.

Entanglement of particles at a distance is not spooky, as that particular phenomenon demonstrates that the special value we attach to proximal causes is supplied by our own minds. Just a thought.
GE Morton
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by GE Morton »

Belindi wrote: October 16th, 2021, 11:24 am GEMorton , October 9 quoted:
Hume argued that there is no necessary connection between events we deem causes and those we deem their effects. All we can observe with regard to "A causes B" is that A precedes B and is "constantly conjoined" with B. But there is no contradiction in affirming B and denying A. He argues that the "necessary connection" is supplied by our own minds, an inductive inference we are psychologically impelled to make, and not one forced upon us by anything discernible in reality.
Constant correlations are observed, and necessary connections are supplied by our own minds. However not only necessary connections but also selections of preceding or circumstantial events are supplied by our own minds. We choose what phenomena we are to observe as material to correlate. The phrase 'proximal cause' normally refers to short time lapses or minimal spaces between phenomena, and the extra predictive value we tend to add to short time lapses and minimal spaces is itself supplied by our own minds.

Entanglement of particles at a distance is not spooky, as that particular phenomenon demonstrates that the special value we attach to proximal causes is supplied by our own minds. Just a thought.
Good points!
PoeticUniverse
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Re: Does Causality Come First?

Post by PoeticUniverse »

Steve3007 wrote: October 8th, 2021, 10:01 am Does anybody have any other views
Causality seems to be as ubiquitous as change is constant. The speed of light is foremost the speed of causality.
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