The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by stevie »

Steve3007 wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 10:32 am
stevie wrote:Hmh, not sure if I get this right....
Sorry to ask a cryptic question. It's just that there used to be a poster on here who went by the name "creation" and then later re-appeared under the name "evolution". It wasn't those names that I was thinking about, when asking you the question. It was the fact that he regularly declared himself not to believe anything. I think in his case this was because he had some funny ideas about what it means to believe something. I think he conflated it with religious faith, or similar. Anyway, your comment reminded me of that. But you're clearly not him, so don't worry about it.
Since "belief" is not publically observable but is exclusively privately accessible it isn't a surprise that there is no knowledge about belief as such but there can be only knowledge about verbal expressions dealing with "belief" which however may differ depending on the conventional knowledge the speaker/writer follows.
If someone expresses something verbally this verbal expression does not display whether the subject using it
- claims/asserts what is expressed because she/he believes the expression to be or represent truth
- intends to lie about what she/he believes to be her/his "real" view
- uses the expression playfully
- uses the expression as a proposal
- uses the expression indifferent about whether it is true or false
- uses the expression without any notion of true/truth/false/falsehood/reality/illusion.
In this context there might also be a difference between thoughts appearing spontaneously and effortlessly and being expressed and thoughts generated through some effort and being expressed. The latter are often connected with more or less conscious intentionality (intended goal like in the context of assertions/claims, logical reasonings) while the former just kind of happen due to acquired thinking habits (conditioned). The latter may become the former through conditioning/continued practice losing their intentionality. The latter are more likely connected with beliefs while the former can be but not necessarily are free from beliefs.

So this is just how things appear to me but may be helpful to get some notion of how I am conditioned to think about "belief".
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Belindi »

Gee wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 3:19 pm So there were two scientists talking together in a lab. One scientist stated, " I am about to test "hypothesis A about X in Y" to see if it "can be supported by experimental evidence". If this works, I will be able to send the results to a science journal. I am so pleased.

The second scientist stated; no, you can't. Your whole experiment is based on logic and a metaphysical position of causal reality, which has nothing to do with science and does not even validate metaphysical positions in philosophy. What were you thinking?

===============================

So the prosecuting attorney told the Judge that the defendant willfully and with intent did murder the victim and should go to prison for life.

The defense attorney told the Judge that his client came home and found a child horribly murdered and caught the man (victim) in the process of hacking the defendant's wife into pieces. He said the defendant went crazy and admits murdering the victim (murderer). Because the defendant was trying to protect his family and home, this was self defense and that should be considered when passing judgement.

The Judge stated: We all know that there is no evidence that a "self" actually exists or is real -- that is simply a belief. I can not let the defendant go because of a belief. Hang him.

Stevie, what are you thinking?

Gee
But the prosecuting attorney , despite that he did not explain 'self' ,did say
"wilfully" which implies that he regarded the defendant as a self.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

stevie wrote: November 1st, 2021, 12:06 pm I am not involved in believing things.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 1st, 2021, 2:49 pm Given the dearth of certainty in our real world, that seems unlikely. As we know so little, we are reduced to belief or nothing.
stevie wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 12:27 am That's a belief of yours.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 9:19 am I don't know about you, but I know only one thing: that Objective Reality exists, and that I am all or part of it. All else is belief, IMO. So while it's true for you to say that my words express a belief of mine, it isn't really a response to what I wrote, is it? 😉
stevie wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 1:54 am Even though you are using the word "we" you have merely expressed what appears to you and I have expressed what appears to me upon seeing your words which has been my response. So?
So? So what?



You said this:
stevie wrote: November 1st, 2021, 12:06 pm I am not involved in believing things.
...and I commented that you have no choice but to indulge in belief, as there is so little certainty around in our real world. You have not responded to this so far. Over to you...
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Steve3007 »

stevie wrote:If someone expresses something verbally this verbal expression does not display whether the subject using it
- claims/asserts what is expressed because she/he believes the expression to be or represent truth
- intends to lie about what she/he believes to be her/his "real" view
- uses the expression playfully
- uses the expression as a proposal
- uses the expression indifferent about whether it is true or false
- uses the expression without any notion of true/truth/false/falsehood/reality/illusion.
For the vast majority of people who have many years of experience of interacting with other humans (a.k.a. adults) it generally does display that.
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by stevie »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 7:31 am You said this:
stevie wrote: November 1st, 2021, 12:06 pm I am not involved in believing things.
...and I commented that you have no choice but to indulge in belief, as there is so little certainty around in our real world. You have not responded to this so far. Over to you...
Well, I said "I am not involved in believing things." and you said "you have no choice but to indulge in belief ...". So?
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by stevie »

Steve3007 wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 7:37 am
stevie wrote:If someone expresses something verbally this verbal expression does not display whether the subject using it
- claims/asserts what is expressed because she/he believes the expression to be or represent truth
- intends to lie about what she/he believes to be her/his "real" view
- uses the expression playfully
- uses the expression as a proposal
- uses the expression indifferent about whether it is true or false
- uses the expression without any notion of true/truth/false/falsehood/reality/illusion.
For the vast majority of people who have many years of experience of interacting with other humans (a.k.a. adults) it generally does display that.
That's funny, right? People impute attributes to mere words and believe that the words display what they impute to them.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Steve3007 »

stevie wrote:That's funny, right? People impute attributes to mere words and believe that the words display what they impute to them.
What do you mean by "attributes" and "display"? Do you mean people think that words are intended to say something?

Earlier this morning I looked out of the window, turned to a colleague and said "it's sunny today". The colleague took that to indicate that I believe it to be sunny today. (He was correct). What, if anything, would you take those words of mine to indicate?
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by stevie »

Steve3007 wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 10:08 am
stevie wrote:That's funny, right? People impute attributes to mere words and believe that the words display what they impute to them.
What do you mean by "attributes" and "display"? Do you mean people think that words are intended to say something?

Earlier this morning I looked out of the window, turned to a colleague and said "it's sunny today". The colleague took that to indicate that I believe it to be sunny today. (He was correct). What, if anything, would you take those words of mine to indicate?
Depends whether when I look out of the window it appears to me to be sunny or not. And even if it appears sunny to me I don't know whether you believe it to be sunny or whether you are merely expressing what appears to you without believing what appears to you to be true, representing truth, false, representing falsehood, real, representing reality, illusory, representing illusion.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Steve3007 »

It seems to be quite common for people to think this is the kind of stuff you're supposed to think if you're a philosopher.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

stevie wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 9:55 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 7:31 am You said this:
stevie wrote: November 1st, 2021, 12:06 pm I am not involved in believing things.
...and I commented that you have no choice but to indulge in belief, as there is so little certainty around in our real world. You have not responded to this so far. Over to you...
Well, I said "I am not involved in believing things." and you said "you have no choice but to indulge in belief ...". So?
So the things you say carry no significant meaning, it seems. Or no meaning you are prepared to discuss, anyway.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Gee
Posts: 667
Joined: December 28th, 2012, 2:41 am
Location: Michigan, US

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Gee »

Belindi wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 7:06 am
Gee wrote: November 2nd, 2021, 3:19 pm So there were two scientists talking together in a lab. One scientist stated, " I am about to test "hypothesis A about X in Y" to see if it "can be supported by experimental evidence". If this works, I will be able to send the results to a science journal. I am so pleased.

The second scientist stated; no, you can't. Your whole experiment is based on logic and a metaphysical position of causal reality, which has nothing to do with science and does not even validate metaphysical positions in philosophy. What were you thinking?

===============================

So the prosecuting attorney told the Judge that the defendant willfully and with intent did murder the victim and should go to prison for life.

The defense attorney told the Judge that his client came home and found a child horribly murdered and caught the man (victim) in the process of hacking the defendant's wife into pieces. He said the defendant went crazy and admits murdering the victim (murderer). Because the defendant was trying to protect his family and home, this was self defense and that should be considered when passing judgement.

The Judge stated: We all know that there is no evidence that a "self" actually exists or is real -- that is simply a belief. I can not let the defendant go because of a belief. Hang him.

Stevie, what are you thinking?

Gee
But the prosecuting attorney , despite that he did not explain 'self' ,did say
"wilfully" which implies that he regarded the defendant as a self.
Hi Belindi,

I should stop using legal references, as they are not as clear as other ideas might be. So, to explain:

The prosecuting attorney used the words "intent" and "willfully" because he was looking for a first-degree murder conviction. Those concepts would negate most defenses that the defendant might try to use. It has nothing to do with what the prosecutor believes in regard to "self".

The law; however, has long accepted the idea of "self". For thousands of years this has been accepted in judicial issues, from the right to defend yourself, to property rights and possession of property, to familial rights regarding obligations and inheritances. All of these relate to "self".

It is interesting to note that in law self-defense is accepted as a defense if you are attacked, or if your spouse is, or if your children are, and in many cases if your home is, but it does not apply to an attack on your siblings, parents, friends, cousins, or any other relative or friend. It also does not apply to any property other than your home. What I find interesting is that it applies to the exact same things that self-preservation or survival instincts apply to, which are regulated by hormones.

Regardless, the "self" is as elusive as the "soul", as there is no direct evidence for either of them. It makes me laugh when members of the science forum deny the existence of a "soul" but accept the existence of a "self", when neither one of them have any direct evidence. It is cherry picking, plain and simple, based on bias -- which was my point.

Gee
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by stevie »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 12:06 pm
stevie wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 9:55 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 7:31 am You said this:
stevie wrote: November 1st, 2021, 12:06 pm I am not involved in believing things.
...and I commented that you have no choice but to indulge in belief, as there is so little certainty around in our real world. You have not responded to this so far. Over to you...
Well, I said "I am not involved in believing things." and you said "you have no choice but to indulge in belief ...". So?
So the things you say carry no significant meaning, it seems. Or no meaning you are prepared to discuss, anyway.
See, as an illustrative example, if someones says "I am feeling happy" and another contradicts "You are feeling sad because ..." then what do you expect the one who said "I am feeling happy" to respond? The one who contradicts doesn't have access to the exclusively private appearance of the one who says "I am feeling happy" but contradicts nevertheless.
We have the same case when I say "I am not involved in believing things." and you contradict "you have no choice but to indulge in belief ...".
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
stevie
Posts: 762
Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by stevie »

Steve3007 wrote: November 3rd, 2021, 10:34 am It seems to be quite common for people to think this is the kind of stuff you're supposed to think if you're a philosopher.
Maybe but thinking and investigating into this kind of stuff may entail significant advantages.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

stevie wrote: November 4th, 2021, 2:35 am We have the same case when I say "I am not involved in believing things." and you contradict "you have no choice but to indulge in belief ...".
Very well, then. You say that you are not "involved in believing things". I cannot understand how you, or anyone, can function without belief - given the degree of uncertainty in the real world - and I wonder if you would describe how (mental) life is possible without belief?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: The Holographic Model of Reality:Is it Useful?

Post by Steve3007 »

I blame Douglas Adams. I think there's a widespread view that to be a philosopher you have to be like that guy who turns out to be the ruler of the universe at the end of "The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" (I think it was there). The one who says to himself things like "I am having a perception that I may or may not regard as indicating someone knocking at my door, but I can't be sure...".
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021