Is original thought possible?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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glamorc
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Is original thought possible?

Post by glamorc »

Can I have an original thought or is it all just a product of my conscious and subconscious learning? Who is to say that what is learnt by one is different or same from another even though they were studying the same thing? Do I understand the world in the same way others do?

Free will and original thought seem to be slowly fading due to the connection of the whole world through the internet. We can share, debate and persuade so easily that aren't we all just becoming of the same mind? Maybe so, but on the other hand each human has their own experience and comes to their own conclusions upon them.
Some people are stubborn in their ways, not open minded enough to be swayed by the opinions of others. Is that good? Do the stubborn people of today keep the world in a non conforming society? We also have to take in humans intrinsic want of connection and validation.

Some may say greatness comes from solitude and that may be true. Is it really from suffering that the mind produces original thought? I would like it if this wasn’t true but it sure seems to be.

Is it good or better that society stays with differing thoughts? Or should we all agree on a dogma?
I see that difference brings upon growth of the human mind, be it bad or good.

In a scientific mind, epigenetics leads us to believe that fear and even likes are genetic. Which tells me that, yeah, original thoughts aren't possible. There may be different versions of the same thought but never a new one.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by Sy Borg »

If you were lost as an infant and raised by an animal pack, what original ideas would you have? What aspects that you think of as "you" would be present with the influence of human culture?
stevie
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by stevie »

glamorc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:48 pm Can I have an original thought or is it all just a product of my conscious and subconscious learning?
Might depend on what one would subsume under "thought". Different aspects of "thought" might be: its verbal expression (which isn't necessarily the thought as such), its accompanying imaginations, its accompanying affects, its mental clarity and sharpness ... there might be other additional aspects and taking "thought" to be a compound of all these the appearance of an "original thought" is likely to happen.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

glamorc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:48 pm Can I have an original thought...?
I think this depends on what you mean by "original". You can subdivide thoughts and ideas, and if some of them are old, but one or two are new, is the overall thought/idea "new"? Isn't a single unique juxtaposition of ideas 'new'? And if an idea has been considered before, but you don't know, is the idea new because it's new to you?

On the other hand, after many generations of humans have lived and died, do you really expect to have an original idea, one that no-one has ever thought before? It's possible, of course, but after so long, how likely is it? And is it in any way a failing if you fail to come up with anything genuinely unique?

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Pattern-chaser

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3017Metaphysician
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

glamorc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:48 pm Can I have an original thought or is it all just a product of my conscious and subconscious learning? Who is to say that what is learnt by one is different or same from another even though they were studying the same thing? Do I understand the world in the same way others do?

Free will and original thought seem to be slowly fading due to the connection of the whole world through the internet. We can share, debate and persuade so easily that aren't we all just becoming of the same mind? Maybe so, but on the other hand each human has their own experience and comes to their own conclusions upon them.
Some people are stubborn in their ways, not open minded enough to be swayed by the opinions of others. Is that good? Do the stubborn people of today keep the world in a non conforming society? We also have to take in humans intrinsic want of connection and validation.

Some may say greatness comes from solitude and that may be true. Is it really from suffering that the mind produces original thought? I would like it if this wasn’t true but it sure seems to be.

Is it good or better that society stays with differing thoughts? Or should we all agree on a dogma?
I see that difference brings upon growth of the human mind, be it bad or good.

In a scientific mind, epigenetics leads us to believe that fear and even likes are genetic. Which tells me that, yeah, original thoughts aren't possible. There may be different versions of the same thought but never a new one.
What a fabulous question!

You said:

Can I have an original thought or is it all just a product of my conscious and subconscious learning? Who is to say that what is learnt by one is different or same from another even though they were studying the same thing? Do I understand the world in the same way others do?


Three quick thoughts:

1. The deconstructionist 'thought process' would posit that the same person who reads a text from say in their 20's, may interpret that same text differently when in their 40's or beyond. It seems as though not only does one's epistemic capacity evolve/changes over a period of time (our perspective about things change based upon experiences that we have ( i.e., politics, religion, interpersonal relationships, philosophy, hobbies, love, etc.) the metaphysical paradox of change is real ("Change is the only constant in life”- Heraclitus.).

2.Cognitively, I think one might want to consider the differences of true novelty v. the illusion of same. If when one is born, their database of experience/information is limited, then as one gains knowledge we add to that information. If the information contains knowledge about the world and ourselves in it (when do we become self-aware), but that in itself does not appear to be a truly novel thing (it would be truly novel in a subjective sense). Of course, when faced with the analogous concepts about determinism and indeterminism in nature, we can obviously conclude both are at work here. For example, it is true we are predisposed to act in certain ways, yet we are free to make random decisions that are not planned or anticipated (people have happenstance/accidents). In any case (free will is a big metaphysical discussion), there is an existential/epistemic paradox that won't allow for resolution.

3. With respect to understanding the world the way others do, yet another paradox rears its head. Objective truths (mathematics) are understood 'universally' as all people typically understand math in the same way. However, it can be argued that there is no such true novelty associated with same. For example, similar a priori truths are only true based upon knowledge without experience and its truth does not change, yet the same a priori knowledge teaches us about the world of change (the mathematical laws of the universe) and is only apperceived through the process of cognitive change (thinking). When discovering/uncovering new laws of the cosmos, it's as if there is an independent of existence there that occurs during revelation... .

4. The phenomenon of music is also paradoxical. Music being a universal language (a universal truth for all) effects people in different ways. It's as if we have this independent phenomena that exists (the physics associated with music itself/sound waves) and is perceived the same, yet differently, based upon the listeners perspective (cognitive awareness). Then, we have the creation of writing music itself, which implies true novelty and revelation that seems to come out of nowhere (like math/theoretical physics). That sense of one's own 'stream of consciousness' (I think term was coined by William James), can be argued both noumenal and phenomenal (Kant), not to mention novel.

Anyway, just thinking aloud there on some of the other possibilities to the questions...
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

glamorc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:48 pm Can I have an original thought or is it all just a product of my conscious and subconscious learning? Who is to say that what is learnt by one is different or same from another even though they were studying the same thing? Do I understand the world in the same way others do?

Free will and original thought seem to be slowly fading due to the connection of the whole world through the internet. We can share, debate and persuade so easily that aren't we all just becoming of the same mind? Maybe so, but on the other hand each human has their own experience and comes to their own conclusions upon them.
Some people are stubborn in their ways, not open minded enough to be swayed by the opinions of others. Is that good? Do the stubborn people of today keep the world in a non conforming society? We also have to take in humans intrinsic want of connection and validation.

Some may say greatness comes from solitude and that may be true. Is it really from suffering that the mind produces original thought? I would like it if this wasn’t true but it sure seems to be.

Is it good or better that society stays with differing thoughts? Or should we all agree on a dogma?
I see that difference brings upon growth of the human mind, be it bad or good.

In a scientific mind, epigenetics leads us to believe that fear and even likes are genetic. Which tells me that, yeah, original thoughts aren't possible. There may be different versions of the same thought but never a new one.
You also may enjoy this quote from William James/Maslow (can't remember who) that may also have some impact on epistemology.... :

What you are not you cannot perceive to understand; it cannot communicate itself to you.

“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by AverageBozo »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 28th, 2021, 6:21 am
glamorc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:48 pm Can I have an original thought...?
I think this depends on what you mean by "original". You can subdivide thoughts and ideas, and if some of them are old, but one or two are new, is the overall thought/idea "new"? Isn't a single unique juxtaposition of ideas 'new'? And if an idea has been considered before, but you don't know, is the idea new because it's new to you?

On the other hand, after many generations of humans have lived and died, do you really expect to have an original idea, one that no-one has ever thought before? It's possible, of course, but after so long, how likely is it? And is it in any way a failing if you fail to come up with anything genuinely unique?

🤔🤔🤔
I subscribe wholeheartedly to your thoughts here, PC. I would further muse that inventors might be capable of original thinking. Depending on whether thoughts about those not-yet-invented creations may be considered new, there’s another possibility for original thought.
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by PoeticUniverse »

glamorc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:48 pm Can I have an original thought or is it all just a product of my conscious and subconscious learning?
One's thoughts are indeed just the products of learning and experience; they don't arise of something outside of this as being truly novel as one's own as from some kind of self-cause; they are owned by the Cosmos as all that went into you; however, one can still figure great things out with the fixed will of the moment or in the future when the fixed will has enlarged its range and depth.
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by Sculptor1 »

All thought is orignal.
Its apparent similarity to the thoughts of others is an illusion.

Another way of looking at it is this.
Ask yourself was there a time when there were no human thoughts.
Now there is such a thing as human thought therefore all thoughts, even ones that appear similar to others had to be thought first by someone. QED original thought is possible.
In fact the very existence of thought means that it would be impossible to consider the idea that no thought is original.
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by JackDaydream »

@glamorc
Each person at a given moment may have a thought which original for him or herself, but that doesn't mean that no one has ever thought a similar thought, as they may be aspects and recurring patterns relating to the human condition. When anyone has the most strangest thoughts, or so it may appear, it hard to know if others have ever had such ideas before. In that sense, an original thought may be seen personally, and there is not a need to copyright it. Perhaps it can be appreciate it for what it is, as a perception and way of seeing, and possibly as an insight, or new way of looking at things, in its uniqueness and quality.

As human beings have been existence for so long it may be hard to come up with truly new ideas, but the mental states may be unique, in giving birth to new ideas individually, and certain aspects of differentiation of certain ideas, and even new philosophy movements.Who knows what may come next, in shuffling and rearranging concepts and ideas from the past , and the creation of new variations, and how do we limit or remain open to further possibilities?
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LuckyR
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 28th, 2021, 6:21 am
glamorc wrote: October 27th, 2021, 11:48 pm Can I have an original thought...?
I think this depends on what you mean by "original". You can subdivide thoughts and ideas, and if some of them are old, but one or two are new, is the overall thought/idea "new"? Isn't a single unique juxtaposition of ideas 'new'? And if an idea has been considered before, but you don't know, is the idea new because it's new to you?

On the other hand, after many generations of humans have lived and died, do you really expect to have an original idea, one that no-one has ever thought before? It's possible, of course, but after so long, how likely is it? And is it in any way a failing if you fail to come up with anything genuinely unique?

🤔🤔🤔
Yeah, pretty much I think we have original ideas all day long. There have been about 108 billion people in the history of the planet. Currently the average life span is about 70 years but for most of history it was below 35 years. There are about 1.1 billion seconds in 35 years. So that is about 1.2 x 10 to the 20th person seconds in the history of the planet. Discounting sleeping and say the first three years of life, that would make a smaller number. But lets say you can have a thought in half a second, that would even it out to about 1 x 10 to the 20th thoughts in the history of humans if folks had another thought every half second through all waking hours starting age 4. Obviously it could be a considerably smaller number if thoughts are complex and more time consuming.

Well considering there are 10 to the 40th possible legal chess moves (32 pieces on 64 squares) and that all possible thought has an almost infinitely higher variable count than a chess board, it seems odd that anyone's thought would be identical to a prior thought on planet Earth.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by Terrapin Station »

As a nominalist, unoriginal thought isn't possible.
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by Steve3007 »

As I think LuckyR was trying to illustrate, the nature of combinations and permutations means that if we consider the question of original thought simply in terms of the number of possible brain states, then clearly original thought is easily possible, and will be for as long as the universe exists. If, for fun, we were to consider it specifically in terms of the language in which we can express our thoughts, then the number of possible sentences is similarly quasi-infinite. As the comedian/actor/writer Stephen Fry once pointed out in a comedy sketch, he can confidently speak this sentence:

"Hold the newsreader's nose squarely, waiter, or friendly milk will countermand my trousers."

safe in the knowledge that nobody has previously said those words in that order.
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by Belindi »

Sculptor1 wrote: October 28th, 2021, 3:42 pm All thought is orignal.
Its apparent similarity to the thoughts of others is an illusion.

Another way of looking at it is this.
Ask yourself was there a time when there were no human thoughts.
Now there is such a thing as human thought therefore all thoughts, even ones that appear similar to others had to be thought first by someone. QED original thought is possible.
In fact the very existence of thought means that it would be impossible to consider the idea that no thought is original.
That is to confuse original and unique. In an earlier post Sy Borg illustrated the influence on thought and practice of culture by referring to feral child. The origin of particular thoughts and practices is in culture, except perhaps for solitary species.

Otherwise,I agree that subjective uniqueness is what frees mankind to create 'original' work.
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Re: Is original thought possible?

Post by Steve3007 »

Terrapin Station wrote:As a nominalist, unoriginal thought isn't possible.
Presumably because (as you've discussed in various topics previously) a nominalist views the notion of identical-ness as not real; as an abstract concept. No two real things can be literally identical. Therefore no two thoughts (thoughts being activities that a real thing does) can be identical.
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