Is consciousness an illusion?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:00 am My objection to “black” holes is that they simply don’t exist.

Why do you define them as “black” holes when they are just holes?
They were termed "black hole" at some stage and it was catchy enough to stick. They are called "black" because the gravitational pull of the central object pulls in space at faster than light speed, which means photons cannot escape, which is why the space around the object is black. However, the the disc of material drawn by a black hole can be extremely luminous due to the high speeds of orbit.

How can you claim that black holes do not exist when images have been captured of M87 and Sagittarius A*? Do you think the Moon landing was CGI (before CGI) too? The existence of black holes has long been established by gravitational effects on other objects. The images were roughly as expected based on prior computer modelling.

It seems you are trying to equate belief in black holes with belief in God, as if each is equally unlikely or proved. Yet no images of God have been taken ... though pantheists, panentheists and Spinozans would say that every image every take is God, but that doesn't count. There is thus zero equivalence between accepting the existence of black holes and belief in a deity that thinks like, and is shaped like, Homo sapiens.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Consul »

Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:00 am My objection to “black” holes is that they simply don’t exist.
Why do you define them as “black” holes when they are just holes?
Black holes are literally neither black nor holes, but they do exist as physical objects. They are black in the sense of being invisible or not being directly visible.

For comparison: There are insects called antlions, which are neither ants nor lions. Nonetheless, antlions do exist. There is a traditional meat dish in Southern Germany called Leberkäse, the literal translation of which is "liver-cheese"; but it is made neither of liver nor of cheese. Nonetheless, Leberkäse does exist. That's the funniness of language!
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Consul »

Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:11 am …Yet no images of God have been taken…
Not true! Here's one:

Image
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Jacob10
Posts: 267
Joined: June 3rd, 2022, 1:46 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Jacob10 »

Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:13 am
Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:00 am My objection to “black” holes is that they simply don’t exist.
Why do you define them as “black” holes when they are just holes?
Black holes are literally neither black nor holes, but they do exist as physical objects. They are black in the sense of being invisible or not being directly visible.

For comparison: There are insects called antlions, which are neither ants nor lions. Nonetheless, antlions do exist. There is a traditional meat dish in Southern Germany called Leberkäse, the literal translation of which is "liver-cheese"; but it is made neither of liver nor of cheese. Nonetheless, Leberkäse does exist. That's the funniness of language!
Holes are just holes with separated Darkness and Light within them.Don’t get holes mixed up with darkness and light.
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Consul »

Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:11 amHow can you claim that black holes do not exist when images have been captured of M87 and Sagittarius A*? Do you think the Moon landing was CGI (before CGI) too? The existence of black holes has long been established by gravitational effects on other objects. The images were roughly as expected based on prior computer modelling.
Right, the existence of black holes is beyond any reasonable scientific doubt.

"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Sy Borg »

Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:19 am
Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:11 am …Yet no images of God have been taken…
Not true! Here's one:

Image
An older white male simian. You can't get more Godlike than that!
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:22 am
Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:13 am
Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:00 am My objection to “black” holes is that they simply don’t exist.
Why do you define them as “black” holes when they are just holes?
Black holes are literally neither black nor holes, but they do exist as physical objects. They are black in the sense of being invisible or not being directly visible.

For comparison: There are insects called antlions, which are neither ants nor lions. Nonetheless, antlions do exist. There is a traditional meat dish in Southern Germany called Leberkäse, the literal translation of which is "liver-cheese"; but it is made neither of liver nor of cheese. Nonetheless, Leberkäse does exist. That's the funniness of language!
Holes are just holes with separated Darkness and Light within them.Don’t get holes mixed up with darkness and light.
It's not a hole so much as a gravity well. We live within a gravity well ourselves, but a far smaller one.

You might prefer neuron stars, the gravitational field around them is slower than light speed, so they and their accretion discs are visible. If you fell into a neutron star, your shredded atoms would hit the surface at a third the speed of light. If you fell into black hole, your shredded atoms would disappear into the blackness.

Why would you doubt physics?
Jacob10
Posts: 267
Joined: June 3rd, 2022, 1:46 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Jacob10 »

Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:30 am
Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:22 am
Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:13 am
Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:00 am My objection to “black” holes is that they simply don’t exist.
Why do you define them as “black” holes when they are just holes?
Black holes are literally neither black nor holes, but they do exist as physical objects. They are black in the sense of being invisible or not being directly visible.

For comparison: There are insects called antlions, which are neither ants nor lions. Nonetheless, antlions do exist. There is a traditional meat dish in Southern Germany called Leberkäse, the literal translation of which is "liver-cheese"; but it is made neither of liver nor of cheese. Nonetheless, Leberkäse does exist. That's the funniness of language!
Holes are just holes with separated Darkness and Light within them.Don’t get holes mixed up with darkness and light.
It's not a hole so much as a gravity well. We live within a gravity well ourselves, but a far smaller one.

You might prefer neuron stars, the gravitational field around them is slower than light speed, so they and their accretion discs are visible. If you fell into a neutron star, your shredded atoms would hit the surface at a third the speed of light. If you fell into black hole, your shredded atoms would disappear into the blackness.

Why would you doubt physics?
What is gravity? Do you know? Define it?
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Consul »

Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:22 amHoles are just holes with separated Darkness and Light within them.Don’t get holes mixed up with darkness and light.
If black holes were literally holes, they would be holes in spacetime; but if "black holes are regions of spacetime from which nothing, not even light, can escape," (see link below!) then they are not holes in, but parts of spacetime (with exotic physical properties).

See: Singularities and Black Holes
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 6036
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Consul »

Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:26 amAn older white male simian. You can't get more Godlike than that!
Thus speaks the sinner! Do you expect God to be a young black lezzie? :wink:
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Jacob10
Posts: 267
Joined: June 3rd, 2022, 1:46 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Jacob10 »

Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:51 am
Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:22 amHoles are just holes with separated Darkness and Light within them.Don’t get holes mixed up with darkness and light.
If black holes were literally holes, they would be holes in spacetime; but if "black holes are regions of spacetime from which nothing, not even light, can escape," (see link below!) then they are not holes in, but parts of spacetime (with exotic physical properties).

See: Singularities and Black Holes
They are just holes and matter enters and exits many many of these holes so all matter did not come from a single hole (point) and will not exit via a single hole (point) either.

Observations confirm this.

Let’s see if someone knows what gravity actually is other than it possibly being an illusionary force dreamt up in the mind of an individual and backed up with flowery massaged mathematical equations.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Belindi »

Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:26 am
Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:19 am
Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:11 am …Yet no images of God have been taken…
Not true! Here's one:

Image
An older white male simian. You can't get more Godlike than that!
If the people's deity is a handsome older white male that is because the older white aristocrat is the people's ruler and they accept that sort of rule.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:34 am
Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:30 am
Jacob10 wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:22 am
Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:13 am

Black holes are literally neither black nor holes, but they do exist as physical objects. They are black in the sense of being invisible or not being directly visible.

For comparison: There are insects called antlions, which are neither ants nor lions. Nonetheless, antlions do exist. There is a traditional meat dish in Southern Germany called Leberkäse, the literal translation of which is "liver-cheese"; but it is made neither of liver nor of cheese. Nonetheless, Leberkäse does exist. That's the funniness of language!
Holes are just holes with separated Darkness and Light within them.Don’t get holes mixed up with darkness and light.
It's not a hole so much as a gravity well. We live within a gravity well ourselves, but a far smaller one.

You might prefer neuron stars, the gravitational field around them is slower than light speed, so they and their accretion discs are visible. If you fell into a neutron star, your shredded atoms would hit the surface at a third the speed of light. If you fell into black hole, your shredded atoms would disappear into the blackness.

Why would you doubt physics?
What is gravity? Do you know? Define it?
https://www.space.com/classical-gravity.html

Essentially, it is the warping of extremely thin stuff aka spacetime by much more dense stuff aka mass.

Why would you doubt gravity? What alternative can you offer?

Those "flowery" equations of Newton and Einstein allowed humans to build a craft that could land on Comet 67P, which is only a few kilometres long while being around half a billion kilometres away and travels through space at 135,000 kilometres per hour. Not flowery, but efficacious.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Sy Borg »

Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 4:00 am
Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:26 amAn older white male simian. You can't get more Godlike than that!
Thus speaks the sinner! Do you expect God to be a young black lezzie? :wink:
Still a simian, Consul. As I keep saying, why would God have a simian morphology unless its ancestors had evolved in trees? How does a deity that creates universes evolve from arboreal species? If I was a theist, I'd be plumping for the formless spirit of unconditional love version rather than the angry old white bloke.

I have heard from theists that this formless God is still masculine because it penetrates matter. So we are all being penetrated at every moment, and without consent, I should add. And even if The Penetrator does not exist, we still find ourselves routinely penetrated by neutrinos, and maybe dark matter as well. No matter what, we are all ultimately fornicated, so to speak.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Is consciousness an illusion?

Post by Belindi »

Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 5:32 am
Consul wrote: June 12th, 2022, 4:00 am
Sy Borg wrote: June 12th, 2022, 3:26 amAn older white male simian. You can't get more Godlike than that!
Thus speaks the sinner! Do you expect God to be a young black lezzie? :wink:
Still a simian, Consul. As I keep saying, why would God have a simian morphology unless its ancestors had evolved in trees? How does a deity that creates universes evolve from arboreal species? If I was a theist, I'd be plumping for the formless spirit of unconditional love version rather than the angry old white bloke.

I have heard from theists that this formless God is still masculine because it penetrates matter. So we are all being penetrated at every moment, and without consent, I should add. And even if The Penetrator does not exist, we still find ourselves routinely penetrated by neutrinos, and maybe dark matter as well. No matter what, we are all ultimately fornicated, so to speak.
The theists' problem of evil is very resistant to attempts to dispel it. Humanists manage the problem of evil by claiming the human creates ethical reality from an ethically neutral natural environment.
Post Reply

Return to “Epistemology and Metaphysics”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021