How Are Emotions Made?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by JackDaydream »

@ Terrapin Station
As I said in the post above this, I read the book really quickly. So, I will read it again a bit more slowly and think about your query and provide a more detailed post on Monday, hopefully...
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by Gee »

JackDaydream wrote: November 6th, 2021, 4:30 pm @ Terrapin Station
As I said in the post above this, I read the book really quickly. So, I will read it again a bit more slowly and think about your query and provide a more detailed post on Monday, hopefully...
Jack,

Thank you so much for finding and reading this book, then presenting it to the forum. Like some of the others, I found your initial post a little confusing, but then I have studied emotion for decades and know what a confusing and difficult subject it is. It can be studied from so many different perspectives because it touches on so many other topics.

I decided to get more information, so I looked on-line and found the following, which is just a short six-minute clip -- but there are a few others that are more than one hour posted along side. Between the clips, there is a lot of information there, which really needs study rather than just viewing them. So far, I have seen a great deal that agrees with my studies on emotion, but I want to learn more before commenting.

I could not figure out how to put the video in this post, so if you just type the name of the book into your browser, the videos will come up.

Gee
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by Gee »

Terrapin Station wrote: November 6th, 2021, 4:05 pm
JackDaydream wrote: November 5th, 2021, 1:49 pm I am writing this thread based on a book which I have been reading, 'How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain,' by Lisa Feldman Barrett(2017). She challenges the classical view of emotions, which is that 'they are the artifacts of evolution, having been advantageous for survival, and are now a fixed component of our biological nature'. She suggests that they are not mere reflexes or experienced in a way which is identical universally.
First, the last sentence there doesn't seem to go with the sentence prior to it.

I'm curious, first off, what the basis is for saying that the "classical view of emotions" is that they are "experienced in a way which is identical universally"? What are some examples of entrenched claims, claims that we could take to well-represent a classical/traditional view, that amount to that?
This didn't make sense to me either, so I looked up the videos. I have long believed that emotion is physical, as that is the only explanation for the way it reacts with our bodies, and that 'thought' may or may not be physical. Most people see emotion as a by-product of thought -- it is not. It is also not a "fixed component of our biological nature".

If I am understanding Barrett correctly, she states that emotion is not a product of thought, it is a reaction to the physical body or outside influences, and it is not a fixed reaction. She gives the example of an ache in the gut, which might be caused by fear, or it might be caused by hunger, or it might be caused by a feeling of betrayal or distrust. In short there is not a list of these specific emotions that work with these specific situations or chemistry causing 'fixed' reactions that compose survival instincts. In truth if it were that simple, psychiatry would be able to cure mental illnesses.

Another point, she made many, is that there is not a specific number of emotions, although we seem to accept that there are a limited number. You can find them listed in Wiki and other sources, but the truth is that there is a continuum of emotions that are barely definable. Pattern-chaser noted that in his post and provided a link that supports this idea. We say the word, emotions, like it is plural, but in reality, I suspect that emotion is fluid, and not discreet information.

Thought is discreet information. For a long time, I wondered how something that is discreet could cause something that is fluid. Maybe it can't. Barrett seems to think that this may be reversed.

She also talks about reactions that are not 'identically universal', like a person who is afraid might gasp in fear, blanch, giggle, smile, or frown. Recognizing their emotion is not always easy, and I suspect that there are people, who are in prison because they had physical/emotional reactions that were not understood.

Gee
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

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chewybrian wrote: November 6th, 2021, 9:47 am I would say emotions are a reaction to the outside world, but not in a direct way. Rather, they are a reaction to our perception of the outside world, which is at least partly formed by opinon. When I see the Bengals or the Buckeyes lose, I am sad or angry or disappointed. But, when I see the Giants or the Yankees lose, I don't care. My emotional reaction, if I have one, is tied up with my preconception of what outcome is good or bad. If I want to play golf, I might be mad that it is raining. If I am trying to grow a few acres of corn, then perhaps the rain makes me happy.
Men are disturbed, not by things, but by the principles and notions which they form concerning things., Epictetus
I think we have control over the principles and notions that we form about things. We can fight the flow of events of the world outside our minds, wishing to control what we do not control, and we will inevitably suffer. Or, we can restrict our expectations (and thus our emotional reactions) to those things within our control, and live a mostly tranquil life as a result.

Cognition, behavior and emotions are all related and feed off each other. You might not say that we have full and direct control over our emotions. Yet, we have a serious form of indirect control through our power to form opinions. This power is effective enough if we bother to engage it fully, which perhaps most of us do not.
Great thoughts, I agree. Emotions are interesting in that we all have an intimate understanding of what our personal emotions mean (to ourselves). Yet we have no idea what appear to be the identical emotions mean to someone else, even though we assume we do (by extrapolating our own experience).
"As usual... it depends."
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Sy Borg
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: November 5th, 2021, 1:49 pm I am writing this thread based on a book which I have been reading, 'How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain,' by Lisa Feldman Barrett(2017). She challenges the classical view of emotions, which is that 'they are the artifacts of evolution, having been advantageous for survival, and are now a fixed component of our biological nature'. She suggests that they are not mere reflexes or experienced in a way which is identical universally. She points out that this was the way many thinkers, ranging from Plato, Aristotle, Freud and Darwin, considered the working of emotions.

Based on the findings of neuroscience, Feldman Barrett argues that emotions are more complex and have greater variations, including cultural aspects. They are constructed in the brain in relation to concepts, and,
'Every moment that you are alive, your brain uses concepts to stimulate the outside world. Without concepts, you are experientially blind...With concepts, your brain stimulates so invisibly and automatically that vision, hearing and your other senses seem like reflexes rather than constructions'.
She also maintains that this difference in how human nature is understood and it also has important implications for how the individual may gain personal attention to their own emotional life.

What do people think about this theory of emotions or which philosophy of emotions enables a more accurate and helpful understanding?
I see emotions as being akin to subroutines. Each sets of a chain of reactions in the body - heartbeat, hormones, blood flow, digestion, brain chemicals, waste removal and so on. Each emotions brings a range of responses. For instance, the stress reaction elicits "fight or flight".

Reality basically consists of things being attracted or repelled from each other at various rates. Broadly, some of the "big" emotions so this on an animal scale. So, for example, love tends to bring entities together while fear tends to increase their separation.
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Gee
I am so glad that someone else has read Barrett's book and I definitely need to study it more and I am planning to do so today. I probably should have done that before creating the post but was excited by it and, I had been wishing for a discussion on emotions on the site since I joined. So, I used Barrett's ideas as a starting point.

I have always been interested in emotions because they are central to human existence and experience. I also notice how they colour perception so much. I do find that it is as if colours are sharper if I am cheerful and duller if I am feeling sad and unhappy. My own background is in mental health care, so I am familiar with emotions being seen in a clinical way and, especially how the term depression can be seen as an all encompassing one for states of sadness and often patients are asked to rate their mood out of 10. Sometimes, I find myself ranking my own mood in such a way. Also, I am aware that emotions are impacted by chemicals, especially antidepressants and these are being so commonly prescribed by doctors almost routinely. However, there are so many variables which affect the emotions. When considering the philosophy of consciousness I find myself wondering about their central aspect to human experiences and, wondering what are emotions?
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sy Borg
Your idea of emotions as chain reactions is important because it does seem that it is a whole series of events, and chemicals come into play, such as in the fight and flight reactions. On a basic physical level, even caffeine comes into play and I notice a lift in mood and excitement due to it, but, sometimes, an increase in anxiety and worry.

In some ways, human beings may share some of the primal emotions with animals and it is likely that animals experience loss and sadness. Of course, it is hard to know what animals feel exactly because we can only observe their behaviour. However, thinking plays such a role in the emotional life of human beings, such as memories of the past and goals for the future.
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

JackDaydream wrote: November 5th, 2021, 1:49 pm I am writing this thread based on a book which I have been reading, 'How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain,' by Lisa Feldman Barrett(2017). She challenges the classical view of emotions, which is that 'they are the artifacts of evolution, having been advantageous for survival, and are now a fixed component of our biological nature'. She suggests that they are not mere reflexes or experienced in a way which is identical universally. She points out that this was the way many thinkers, ranging from Plato, Aristotle, Freud and Darwin, considered the working of emotions.

Based on the findings of neuroscience, Feldman Barrett argues that emotions are more complex and have greater variations, including cultural aspects. They are constructed in the brain in relation to concepts, and,
'Every moment that you are alive, your brain uses concepts to stimulate the outside world. Without concepts, you are experientially blind...With concepts, your brain stimulates so invisibly and automatically that vision, hearing and your other senses seem like reflexes rather than constructions'.
She also maintains that this difference in how human nature is understood and it also has important implications for how the individual may gain personal attention to their own emotional life.

What do people think about this theory of emotions or which philosophy of emotions enables a more accurate and helpful understanding?
I am not surprised because every time there is a new insight in the way the mind-body complex functions it only affirms what Indian Vedanta, particularly the Advaita or Non-duality school of thought, has asserted. The amazement is only in why did it take so long.
'Every moment that you are alive, your brain uses concepts to stimulate the outside world.
What does the this quote mean? Where do these concepts come from and how does it "stimulate" the outside world? This echoes exactly what Advaita says as well, which is that each of us create our own world, created by the mind and awareness, our consciousness in other words..
"The Serpent did not lie."
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by JackDaydream »

@AmericanKestrel
I have been reading Barrett's book today and plan to put in a couple of entries about her ideas tomorrow but she does think that concepts are gained during socialization. However, she does think that each of us constructs our own world and it is interesting that this echoes Advaita.
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: November 7th, 2021, 6:17 am @Sy Borg
Your idea of emotions as chain reactions is important because it does seem that it is a whole series of events, and chemicals come into play, such as in the fight and flight reactions. On a basic physical level, even caffeine comes into play and I notice a lift in mood and excitement due to it, but, sometimes, an increase in anxiety and worry.

In some ways, human beings may share some of the primal emotions with animals and it is likely that animals experience loss and sadness. Of course, it is hard to know what animals feel exactly because we can only observe their behaviour. However, thinking plays such a role in the emotional life of human beings, such as memories of the past and goals for the future.
Yes, humans and other species share many emotions, both primal and complex. Loss, sadness and anger only scratch the surface of other animals' emotional lives - humour, jealousy, disgust, frustration, excitement, surprise, loneliness. Not long ago I read claims by scientists that dogs did not experienced jealousy, and such a claim would be anthropomorphism, which just showed that he has no idea how to read canine behaviour. Many smart birds too have rich emotional lives.

The difference is that humans can more clearly perceive the flow of time than other animals, allowing us to more clearly recall the past and project much further into the future. While trauma can have lifelong effects on all manner of animals, humans can ruminate on the mental injury. That allows them to both learn from past mistakes and emotionally torment themselves with them.

The hot and cold drink experiment (on humans) was an eye-opener for me, which you probably studied long before I read about it: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/sto ... d=96041598. If holding a warm cup of coffee or cold drink is enough to change how one feels about another person, the mind boggles at how many other ways our emotions might be influenced without our knowledge.

So those who eschew cool analysis to ride their emotions are essentially like leaves blowing on a breeze, following impulses that can be driven by something as trivial as a hot drink. That's great if one enjoys chaos, and certainly some people leverage the mayhem that their unfettered emotions bring, eg. artists, criminals. I was in that mental space myself for some years and I'm glad to be out. Of all the philosophical schools, I find stoicism the most grounding.

Like anything, emotionalism can be used or abused, so to speak.
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

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QUOTE>
"Contemporary philosophers differ widely on how they understand the nature of emotion. There is no consensus on what emotions are, nor any agreement on how to individuate emotions and distinguish them from other affective states such as moods, sentiments, and feelings. Even the idea that emotions form a distinct class, or natural kind, is suspect. To complicate things, there is no methodological agreement on how to address these issues. It is therefore not surprising to find there is no uniform position on the relation between consciousness and emotion in contemporary philosophy of emotion. Paradoxically, many philosophical discussions of emotion ignore consciousness entirely while others consider it their daily bread."

("Emotions, Philosophical Perspectives." In The Oxford Companion to Consciousness, edited by Tim Bayne, Axel Cleeremans, and Patrick Wilken, 259-262. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. p. 259)
<QUOTE

Well…

A very important point: When I think of emotions, I think of emotional experiences, subjective feelings or moods; but when psychologists or neurophysiologists think of emotions, they often think of something else that is not part of the stream of subjective experience or the field of phenomenal consciousness. Given their usage, phrases such as "unexperienced emotions", "unfelt emotions", and "nonconscious emotions" aren't contradictions in terms—which I think they should be!
We may speak instead of a larger psychophysiological emotion-complex, of which emotions = emotional experiences are one part among other emotion-related yet nonemotional parts.

QUOTE>
"Emotions are usually characterized by (a) physiological features: physiological arousal, physiological and physiognomic expression, automatic appraisal, neural processing in limbic circuits of the brain; (b) phenomenal features: a subjective qualitative feel; (c) cognitive features: cognitive antecedents and successors, (d) an intentional object; (e) behavioral features: certain (inter-)action tendencies."
(p. 6)

"Tokens of emotions can be characterized by a large set of different characteristic properties:
1. automatic appraisal that is tuned to: quick onset, brief duration, and typically
unbidden occurrence
2. distinctive physiognomic and physiological reactions
3. distinctive cognitions: thoughts, memories, images
4. distinctive subjective experience
5. interpersonal/interactive orientation
6. characteristic behavioral and motivational features
The list of properties includes the initially discussed aspects of the emotional experience: cognitive content and the distinct subjective feeling experience of emotion."
(p. 9)

(Zinck, Alexandra, and Albert Newen. "Classifying Emotion: A Developmental Account." Synthese 161/1 (2008): 1–25.)
<QUOTE
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

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@Sy Borg
It is hard to know how far 'unfettered emotions' should go. I remember being on a therapy course and how in some groups some people became tearful or shouted at each other angrily to ventilate 'emotion'. I was not even sure how genuine it was even as it seemed like acting. But, that is a role of emotion too as children probably cry to get the attention needed. Emotion can be part of communication of need and of persuasion. It is hard to know to what extent it can be curbed because if taken to the extreme people would be almost like robots. Perhaps, the most important thing is that people have some outlets for expressing of emotion through the arts, sports or talking to others. It may be that too much or too little display of emotion is impoverishing and may have a destabilising effect on wellbeing.
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by JackDaydream »

I have been reading Lisa Feldman Barrett's book more slowly and carefully, and I will try to spell out some ideas more carefully in response to @Terrapin Station and
@Sculptor1' s responses previously.

Regarding the classical view of emotions, she suggests, one assumptions is that 'our faces hold the key to assessing emotions objectively and accurately'. She goes on to say that in this picture, 'you shouldn't need concepts to perceive emotions, because emotions are supposed to have universal fingerprints that everyone around the world can recognize from birth.'

She also points to the way in which many classical thinkers, including Darwin, thought that each emotion has an 'essence', which is essentialism. The underlying perspective is 'that certain categories- sadness and fear, dogs and cats ...each have a true reality or nature.

In addition, this is connected to a view of human nature in which 'behaviour is governed by internal forces beyond your control: you are buffeted by the world and respond emotionally on impulse, like an erupting volcano or a boiling point.' She adds that, 'sometimes your emotion essences and cognitive essences vie for control of your behaviour, and other times the two sets of essences work together to make you wise. '

The critique of this viewpoint is based on the idea of
interoception. However, I will write this in a separate post because I wish for the ideas to be readable, rather than to create a blob of ideas in one post.
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

Post by Steve3007 »

JackDaydream wrote:I am writing this thread based on a book which I have been reading, 'How Emotions Are Made: The Secret Life of the Brain,' by Lisa Feldman Barrett(2017). She challenges the classical view of emotions, which is that 'they are the artifacts of evolution, having been advantageous for survival, and are now a fixed component of our biological nature'. She suggests that they are not mere reflexes or experienced in a way which is identical universally.
I have been reading Lisa Feldman Barrett's book more slowly and carefully, and I will try to spell out some ideas more carefully in response to @Terrapin Station and
@Sculptor1' s responses previously.

Regarding the classical view of emotions, she suggests, one assumptions is that 'our faces hold the key to assessing emotions objectively and accurately'. She goes on to say that in this picture, 'you shouldn't need concepts to perceive emotions, because emotions are supposed to have universal fingerprints that everyone around the world can recognize from birth.'
So, it seems she's not saying that this "classical view" of emotions is that they are "mere reflexes or experienced in a way which is identical universally". From your description, it sounds like she's claiming that the classical view is that emotions, having evolved as something that is advantageous for our species' survival, tend to be similar the world over. Just like other evolved features of our species tend to be similar the world over. Having two arms and two legs, for example.

That "classical view" seems pretty reasonable to me. It seems reasonable to suppose that humans the world over share a lot of similar emotional reactions. And it seems reasonable to suppose that the displaying of emotions using facial expressions is also a global human trait. I'm sure we're all familiar with the idea that we humans use our facial expressions like this. (It's one of the things that make communication in forums like this so unnatural, and the reason why the extremely blunt instrument of the "emoticon" was invented. :roll: :lol: .)

What would be unreasonable would be to take that idea and run with it to the extreme, by claiming that individual cultural variations make no difference or that emotions are literally identical the world over. Of course they're not. Obviously, despite the fact that humans all tend to share the same sets of emotions, there are cultural differences.
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Re: How Are Emotions Made?

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I am choosing to quote from Barrett's writing directly to avoid any potential misinterpretation. I am also trying to keep it as concise as possible. Her ideas on the process of interoception:
'Simple pleasant and unpleasant feelings come from an ongoing process inside you called interception.
Interoception is your brain's representation is your brain's representation of all sensations from your internal organs and tissues, the hormones in your blood, and your immune system...Interoception is in fact one of the core ingredients of emotion, just as flour and water are core ingredients of bread, but these feelings that come from interoception are much simpler than full-blown emotional experiences like joy and sadness.

The underlying argument is that through the process a person is an 'architect' of experiences. Barrett states,
'Usually, you experience interoception only in general terms: those simple feelings of pleasure, displeasure, arousal or calmness...Sometimes, however, you experience intense moments of intense interoceptive sensations as emotions. This is a key element of the theory of constructed emotion. In every waking moment, your brain gives your sensations meaning.'

I won"t go on any further in quoting and allow for anyone who is interested in discussing these ideas. Also, even though I have focused on this specific theory, I have opened it with a view to any other ideas, so feel free to discuss the idea of how emotions are made in whatever way seems worth exploring.
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