Human Intentions

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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WanderingGaze22
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Human Intentions

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

Since their beginning, mankind has shown to be a species capable of great compassion as well as violence. In the end, the nature of any being can almost be determined by how an individual, man, woman, child or beast will behave if they know that they will face no repercussions for their actions.
This experiment raises of other questions as.As the dominant species, are humans inherently good or bad? Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior? Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?

What would you do if you knew that no one would ever find out what you have done? What do you think other people would do? What would a good person do? As you think about these questions, remember the worst events in history and what was done because of it. For example, WWII's aftermath led to the formation of the United Nations, an assembly of various countries dedicated to aiding humanity and fighting against global conflict.
stevie
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by stevie »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Since their beginning, mankind has shown to be a species capable of great compassion as well as violence. In the end, the nature of any being can almost be determined by how an individual, man, woman, child or beast will behave if they know that they will face no repercussions for their actions.
This experiment raises of other questions as.As the dominant species, are humans inherently good or bad?
"good" and "bad" are relative and don't necessarily have a moral connotation. If you're aiming at morality then what kind of morality are you aiming at? But putting aside my question, regardless of what you're aiming at with "good" and "bad" the "inherently" in "inherently good or bad" cannot be applicable because human behaviour depends on contexts which may imply sometimes "good" and sometimes "bad".
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior?
The key is social control. Even if some refer to religious morality and punishment by a god it boils down to social control through education and censure. On the secular side we have law and prosecution.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?
Sometimes or maybe it may appear that this is often the case but "always" seems to be too categorical.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am What would you do if you knew that no one would ever find out what you have done? What do you think other people would do?
There are many thing all individuals can do without anyone else being able to know about it, so your conditioned question ("if ...") doesn't make sense.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am What would a good person do?
I don't practice thinking in terms of "[morally] good" and "[morally] bad".
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Belindi
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by Belindi »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Since their beginning, mankind has shown to be a species capable of great compassion as well as violence. In the end, the nature of any being can almost be determined by how an individual, man, woman, child or beast will behave if they know that they will face no repercussions for their actions.
This experiment raises of other questions as.As the dominant species, are humans inherently good or bad? Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior? Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?

What would you do if you knew that no one would ever find out what you have done? What do you think other people would do? What would a good person do? As you think about these questions, remember the worst events in history and what was done because of it. For example, WWII's aftermath led to the formation of the United Nations, an assembly of various countries dedicated to aiding humanity and fighting against global conflict.
Besides public philanthropy there are plenty examples of secret compassionate acts; plenty of obscure Schindlers and most of us know some of them. Or sometimes a man intends to be compassionate but lacks the power.

There is a stage in the moral development of the child when he is good for fear of disapproval or punishment. Let's hope all children are given the environment in which they can develop at least to the stage of reason and moral autonomy.

When humans become extinct there will be no recording angel to pass final judgement, as evaluating abstract qualities is solely a human activity. Violence is caused by fear. In the absence of God's recording angel and indeed the absence of God Himself, what we humans have and are shown to have is to aspire to and long for love. Perfect love transcends the relative world and psychologically is like the magnetic north for a migrating bird.
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LuckyR
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by LuckyR »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Since their beginning, mankind has shown to be a species capable of great compassion as well as violence. In the end, the nature of any being can almost be determined by how an individual, man, woman, child or beast will behave if they know that they will face no repercussions for their actions.
This experiment raises of other questions as.As the dominant species, are humans inherently good or bad? Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior? Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?

What would you do if you knew that no one would ever find out what you have done? What do you think other people would do? What would a good person do? As you think about these questions, remember the worst events in history and what was done because of it. For example, WWII's aftermath led to the formation of the United Nations, an assembly of various countries dedicated to aiding humanity and fighting against global conflict.
Humans are notable among animals for an incredibly wide range of behaviors from very selfish to very altruistic.

Various individuals label various points on the continuum as "normal", "good" and "bad". That is therefore completely subjective.

I like the "what would you do if no one was looking" trick to help evaluate behavior.
"As usual... it depends."
WanderingGaze22
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

LuckyR wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:47 pm
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am What would you do if you knew that no one would ever find out what you have done? What do you think other people would do? What would a good person do? As you think about these questions, remember the worst events in history and what was done because of it. For example, WWII's aftermath led to the formation of the United Nations, an assembly of various countries dedicated to aiding humanity and fighting against global conflict.
Humans are notable among animals for an incredibly wide range of behaviors from very selfish to very altruistic.

Various individuals label various points on the continuum as "normal", "good" and "bad". That is therefore completely subjective.

I like the "what would you do if no one was looking" trick to help evaluate behavior.
Appreciate that
WanderingGaze22
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

stevie wrote: November 20th, 2021, 3:35 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am
"good" and "bad" are relative and don't necessarily have a moral connotation. If you're aiming at morality then what kind of morality are you aiming at? But putting aside my question, regardless of what you're aiming at with "good" and "bad" the "inherently" in "inherently good or bad" cannot be applicable because human behaviour depends on contexts which may imply sometimes "good" and sometimes "bad".
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior?
The key is social control. Even if some refer to religious morality and punishment by a god it boils down to social control through education and censure. On the secular side we have law and prosecution.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?
Sometimes or maybe it may appear that this is often the case but "always" seems to be too categorical.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am What would you do if you knew that no one would ever find out what you have done? What do you think other people would do?
There are many thing all individuals can do without anyone else being able to know about it, so your conditioned question ("if ...") doesn't make sense.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am What would a good person do?
I don't practice thinking in terms of "[morally] good" and "[morally] bad".
You make good points, but there is a line between someone who wants to make better decisions and someone who knows a poor choice will make negative impact with no benefit and does so anyway. I mean to say what would anyone do if they had confidence that they were not going to be caught by any witnesses or authorities.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by Pattern-chaser »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Since their beginning, mankind has shown to be a species capable of great compassion as well as violence. In the end, the nature of any being can almost be determined by how an individual, man, woman, child or beast will behave if they know that they will face no repercussions for their actions.
This experiment raises of other questions as. As the dominant species, are humans inherently good or bad? Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior? Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?

<sigh>

Good for/to whom or what? Bad for/to whom or what? Good and bad are barely defined, relative, terms. The sense they convey is limited anyway. But if you consider "good" and "bad" without saying who it's good/bad for/to, you consider an incomplete concept, which is incomprehensible because of its incompleteness.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Nick_A
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by Nick_A »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 21st, 2021, 9:17 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Since their beginning, mankind has shown to be a species capable of great compassion as well as violence. In the end, the nature of any being can almost be determined by how an individual, man, woman, child or beast will behave if they know that they will face no repercussions for their actions.
This experiment raises of other questions as. As the dominant species, are humans inherently good or bad? Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior? Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?

<sigh>

Good for/to whom or what? Bad for/to whom or what? Good and bad are barely defined, relative, terms. The sense they convey is limited anyway. But if you consider "good" and "bad" without saying who it's good/bad for/to, you consider an incomplete concept, which is incomprehensible because of its incompleteness.
How IYO do good and bad intentions relate to the Eastern concept of karma?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/karma
Essential Meaning of karma
1: the force created by a person's actions that is believed in Hinduism and Buddhism to determine what that person's next life will be like

2informal : the force created by a person's actions that some people believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person

She believes that helping people produces good karma.
Who or what is so concerned with intentions? Is it some deity, the universe itself, society, or perhaps a quality of force we are yet to appreciate?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
stevie
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by stevie »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 21st, 2021, 2:50 am
stevie wrote: November 20th, 2021, 3:35 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am
"good" and "bad" are relative and don't necessarily have a moral connotation. If you're aiming at morality then what kind of morality are you aiming at? But putting aside my question, regardless of what you're aiming at with "good" and "bad" the "inherently" in "inherently good or bad" cannot be applicable because human behaviour depends on contexts which may imply sometimes "good" and sometimes "bad".
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior?
The key is social control. Even if some refer to religious morality and punishment by a god it boils down to social control through education and censure. On the secular side we have law and prosecution.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?
Sometimes or maybe it may appear that this is often the case but "always" seems to be too categorical.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am What would you do if you knew that no one would ever find out what you have done? What do you think other people would do?
There are many thing all individuals can do without anyone else being able to know about it, so your conditioned question ("if ...") doesn't make sense.
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am What would a good person do?
I don't practice thinking in terms of "[morally] good" and "[morally] bad".
You make good points, but there is a line between someone who wants to make better decisions and someone who knows a poor choice will make negative impact with no benefit and does so anyway. I mean to say what would anyone do if they had confidence that they were not going to be caught by any witnesses or authorities.
Someone "who wants to make better decisions" may have lost contact to her/-himself because appopriate decisions originate naturally and someone "who knows a poor choice will make negative impact with no benefit and does so anyway" may be a person driven by irrational intellectual motivations. So both persons may be governed by specific but different disorders, yes, so "there is a line between" applies metaphorically.

The consideration "will I be caught by any witnesses or authorities?" can only appear if there is the intention to do something that is socially censured and there is knowledge that it is socially censured and - referring to the two disorders - such an intention can only arise if the naturally originating decision is in conflict with these social norms (absence of disorder 1) but the person is driven by irrational intellectual motivations (presence of disorder 2). So given the absence of disorder 1 but simulaneous presence of disorder 2 the arising of the consideration "will I be caught by any witnesses or authorities?" as such is already evidence that the person in question will act counter the corresponding social norms if there is confidence that she/he will not be caught by any witnesses or authorities.
The fact that the naturally originating decision is in conflict with these social norms renders the cure of such a person very difficult because the conditioning obviously has happened in the context of family, upbringing etc. not in touch with these social norms.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Steve3007
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by Steve3007 »

WanderingGaze22 wrote:Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior?
No. For most people the threat of punishment is not the primary motivator. It's empathy. There are various ways in which empathy can be enhanced or decreased.
As you think about these questions, remember the worst events in history and what was done because of it.
Events like the Holocaust aren't caused primarily by the lack of punishment. I think they're caused by tribalism, compartmentalism, human exceptionalism (the belief that humans are fundamentally different from other animals) and the notion of objectively existing values. Those last two together, it seems, have been particularly effective at easing the way for genocides like the Holocaust and others. The first two, it seems, also play a part in genocides but also more widely in other examples of violence.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Human Intentions

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 21st, 2021, 9:17 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: November 20th, 2021, 2:46 am Since their beginning, mankind has shown to be a species capable of great compassion as well as violence. In the end, the nature of any being can almost be determined by how an individual, man, woman, child or beast will behave if they know that they will face no repercussions for their actions.
This experiment raises of other questions as. As the dominant species, are humans inherently good or bad? Are we only good because of the threat of punishment for bad behavior? Does any kind of power always corrupt the one who possesses it?
Good for/to whom or what? Bad for/to whom or what?
Cooking a friend a big, juicy steak would often be seen as "good". The cow that was slaughtered for the steak would not have shared that view.

Since life forms are all competing with each other, "good" exists in the eye of the beholder.

So, as you suggest, the "no consequences" test does not tell us about "good" or "bad". Rather, it reveals a person's sphere of concern - anywhere from strong selfishness to strong universalism (most don't seem to much worry outside family, friends and, to a much lesser extent, fellow locals and citizens). The "no consequences" test will also test impulse control (a la the Stanford Marshmallow Experiment).
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