Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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The Beast
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by The Beast »

What is there if anything?
This Viking ancient mtDNA comes from the Kilimanjaro area. A volcano. Before any spoken words “the people” had connections to the Earth. The dance of the Python of some other dances as imitation of Mother Earth’s totem animals. The serpent is not a unique totem. Some cultures imitate the dances of birds when they mate. Something awakes within. A feeling. Archaic rituals. Hope; Faith. I might consider them feelings as cave paintings. Consciousness feels the coldness of snow and it reveals the innate knowledge: cold. Other feelings might be there in waiting to be discover. Why the snake? It might feel the rumblings of the Earth even before they happen. We might recall words or dreams in the richness of what is given and then forget… to remember them again in the full spectrum of the words. Yet if not words we have paintings.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

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The Beast wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:52 am In 2017 the remains of a least one Viking grave from the town of Birka were DNA sequenced. The grave of a then thought warrior king was found to be a warrior Viking woman and the mtDNA T2b.
Ancient tracing (100000 plus years) of mtDNA T2b is to and below Tanzania’s lake Victoria. Anthropologists from Oslo had gone to the Kalahari dessert in Botswana to investigate the Tsodelo hills paintings. There in a cave, a rock made to be the head of an enormous serpent had shown indications of elaborate regional shamanic rituals. It is that T2b migrated north as the great Python serpent of the Nile crossing over to the Minoan culture. The great serpent of war carried its rituals to Pythia were the Omplalo IMO now is the head of the Python. As the cult of Poseidon of ancient mariners, anthropological evidence of Saxon origin depicted figurines of dolphin and horse which IMO seems to be those of Delphyne and Typhon. To see evil in the serpent of paradise on the tree of life is then understood in the POV as peaceful Aramaic tribes dealt with the God Serpent of War.
Can you cite any of this? Or is it a complete fantasy?
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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by Sculptor1 »

JackDaydream wrote: January 9th, 2022, 11:10 am

The discovery you speak of in the Viking cave is interesting from my point of view and I did even create a thread on shamanism in the section on the philosophy of religion recently. I do believe that it is likely that there is a lot more to the origins of religion and language than many believe.

Part of this distortion may be due to the way in which mainstream religions have involved depicting the history of religion with the way in which the authorities of the religions wished people to understand religion. In Western Christianity, the shamanic, pagan and Gnostic ideas may have been suppressed in what writing is available and even translations can alter the meaning. My understanding is that the anthropologist, Chris Knight, was trying to suggest that there is a lot more to the idea of the snake than the mainstream idea of evil and 'the fall'. Smbolism has been cast and framed in accordance with the chosen language and mythic interpretation chosen by religious authorities.

"Shamanism" is a dustbin category, or a host of many different practices, from disparate and distinct cultures. When we say Christianity or Islam we know that these religions had a distinct starting point and ideological religion and that there are some key aspects that they share, more especially in the case of Islam. CHristianty is far more disparate.
But there is no "Shamanism" as a distinct set of evolved practices in the same way and even if you chose to call Viking belief "shamanic" there would be nothing to link it to Southern Africa as "The Beast" seems to imply.
I'm not sure what he is trying to imply and I see his post lacks the necessary citations to validate it.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by Sculptor1 »

The Beast wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:52 am In 2017 the remains of a least one Viking grave from the town of Birka were DNA sequenced. The grave of a then thought warrior king was found to be a warrior Viking woman and the mtDNA T2b.
Ancient tracing (100000 plus years) of mtDNA T2b is to and below Tanzania’s lake Victoria. Anthropologists from Oslo had gone to the Kalahari dessert in Botswana to investigate the Tsodelo hills paintings. There in a cave, a rock made to be the head of an enormous serpent had shown indications of elaborate regional shamanic rituals. It is that T2b migrated north as the great Python serpent of the Nile crossing over to the Minoan culture. The great serpent of war carried its rituals to Pythia were the Omplalo IMO now is the head of the Python. As the cult of Poseidon of ancient mariners, anthropological evidence of Saxon origin depicted figurines of dolphin and horse which IMO seems to be those of Delphyne and Typhon. To see evil in the serpent of paradise on the tree of life is then understood in the POV as peaceful Aramaic tribes dealt with the God Serpent of War.
Can you please cite these claims?

Can you say what you think the significance of them are!
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JackDaydream
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by JackDaydream »

@The Beast

My understanding is that a lot of symbolism is related to fertility rites and Chris Knight saw the significance of the snake as connected to women's menstruation. He saw the snake as being about female power, as being able to give birth, in relation to dance rituals amongst the Aborigines.He spoke of how this power was suppressed in the development of patriarchal religion

Drawings and paintings may have been one of the earliest form of human expression. There were cave paintings and symbols in the structure of the alphabet, as well as religious symbols. The development of poetry can also be seen as being about painting with words and there were the formation of oracles.

Also in thinking about the evolution of culture and language it cannot be ignored how even though people often think of linear progress it does seem that there was such sophisticated understanding in Ancient Greece and Egypt. Writing has changed so much with science and the art forms of today but that doesn't mean that people should necessarily dismiss the writings of the distant past, including the writings of the ancient Greece and texts such as 'The Tao de Ching' for the wisdom which they contain.

It may be that the metaphorical understanding in those writings of the earliest or ancients may be of a different kind to those within twentieth first century science or those expressed within the arts and popular culture, but that doesn't mean that it is inferior. I am not suggesting that you think such ways of seeing are inferior but I have come across many people who do tend to think that modern or postmodernism, and scientific thinking are the ultimate way of thinking. At this point in time, with so much information and texts springing from the cultures and languages from the past and throughout the world we are in the fortunate position to see an overview of the whole panorama of the expression of human consciousness.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sculptor1

This is the thread on words rather than shamanism, but it does seem that both are connected in terms of rites and origins of culture. It is hard to know to what extent shamanism existed historically. My own reading is based upon cultures such as the Native Americans. But, I do see the figure of the shaman more as an archetype for understanding journeying into altered states of consciousness.

One aspect which I do believe may be true is that figures like Moses and other figureheads within the evolution of religion and culture entered into certain states of consciousness. These states of mind may have inspired their communication in oral expression or in writing. But, I guess that there is also the inspiration of the muses or the creative processes, such as those entered into by musicians and writers, which often involve words. There are also some peak experiences, spoken of by mystics as the ineffable. But, it does seem that here the task of the mystic and the philosopher are differentiated, because the philosopher seeks to find words with which to describe and explain, even where this is difficult.
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The Beast
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by The Beast »

Sculptor1 wrote: January 9th, 2022, 12:12 pm
The Beast wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:52 am In 2017 the remains of a least one Viking grave from the town of Birka were DNA sequenced. The grave of a then thought warrior king was found to be a warrior Viking woman and the mtDNA T2b.
Ancient tracing (100000 plus years) of mtDNA T2b is to and below Tanzania’s lake Victoria. Anthropologists from Oslo had gone to the Kalahari dessert in Botswana to investigate the Tsodelo hills paintings. There in a cave, a rock made to be the head of an enormous serpent had shown indications of elaborate regional shamanic rituals. It is that T2b migrated north as the great Python serpent of the Nile crossing over to the Minoan culture. The great serpent of war carried its rituals to Pythia were the Omplalo IMO now is the head of the Python. As the cult of Poseidon of ancient mariners, anthropological evidence of Saxon origin depicted figurines of dolphin and horse which IMO seems to be those of Delphyne and Typhon. To see evil in the serpent of paradise on the tree of life is then understood in the POV as peaceful Aramaic tribes dealt with the God Serpent of War.
Can you please cite these claims?

Can you say what you think the significance of them are!
What exactly? I say IMO in interpreting the data. Not sure if you want the sources of the data.
For example: “ In 2017 the remains of a least one Viking grave from the town of Birka were DNA sequenced. The grave of a then thought warrior king was found to be a warrior Viking woman and the mtDNA T2b”. Is there a question about the authenticity of this? I would like to know myself.
Anyway it is omphalos and not Omplalo typo.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by Sculptor1 »

The Beast wrote: January 9th, 2022, 4:34 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: January 9th, 2022, 12:12 pm
The Beast wrote: January 9th, 2022, 8:52 am In 2017 the remains of a least one Viking grave from the town of Birka were DNA sequenced. The grave of a then thought warrior king was found to be a warrior Viking woman and the mtDNA T2b.
Ancient tracing (100000 plus years) of mtDNA T2b is to and below Tanzania’s lake Victoria. Anthropologists from Oslo had gone to the Kalahari dessert in Botswana to investigate the Tsodelo hills paintings. There in a cave, a rock made to be the head of an enormous serpent had shown indications of elaborate regional shamanic rituals. It is that T2b migrated north as the great Python serpent of the Nile crossing over to the Minoan culture. The great serpent of war carried its rituals to Pythia were the Omplalo IMO now is the head of the Python. As the cult of Poseidon of ancient mariners, anthropological evidence of Saxon origin depicted figurines of dolphin and horse which IMO seems to be those of Delphyne and Typhon. To see evil in the serpent of paradise on the tree of life is then understood in the POV as peaceful Aramaic tribes dealt with the God Serpent of War.
Can you please cite these claims?

Can you say what you think the significance of them are!
What exactly? I say IMO in interpreting the data. Not sure if you want the sources of the data.
For example: “ In 2017 the remains of a least one Viking grave from the town of Birka were DNA sequenced. The grave of a then thought warrior king was found to be a warrior Viking woman and the mtDNA T2b”. Is there a question about the authenticity of this? I would like to know myself.
Anyway it is omphalos and not Omplalo typo.
Please cite these claims.
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The Beast
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by The Beast »

Here is something.
An article appeared in Forbes Sep 8, 2017.
Source. American Journal of physical Anthropology vol 164. Issue 4 page 853-860.
What are your concerns? The stretch of the zoomorphism?
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JackDaydream
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by JackDaydream »

@The Beast

I was interested in the finding of the Viking woman, but would it be in relation to the origins and culture. Is it that you believe there is a certain gap in our understanding of civilisation. I am saying that because while Darwin's theory of evolution makes sense there still seems to something missing. I am not talking about the 'missing link' in the conventional sense, but more something missing in terms of how language came into being because it is human language which makes humanity so different from the animal kingdom. I believe that there is a fair amount of lost knowledge about some of the earliest civilisations...
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The Beast
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by The Beast »

I found your point on the symbolism of snakes interesting. In essence I was crossing into what Roger Penrose described as a platonic reality. It might be in the scope of your inquiry if language is considered an abstract element.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Where Do Words Come From and What is the Link Between Language and Consciousness?

Post by JackDaydream »

@The Beast

The connection here may be where do the ideas come from which are expressed in words? Use of words and the development of language is important, but it could be asked what is the source from which language and ideas come in the first place? Plato had his idea of the Forms, but it could be asked do ideas or the descriptions embodied in ideas come first? This is a question which involves both philosophy and anthropology, and possibly cognitive psychology.
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