Do we really choose anything?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Thomyum2
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by Thomyum2 »

RJG wrote: January 14th, 2022, 9:37 pm Thom, If you answered the main question in the OP, and then answered the follow up questions, then (hopefully) you will see the infinite regress, and the resulting logical impossibility of choosing.

If you can't understand or see the logical impossibility, then you can't. No biggie. Take care friend.
No I can't see the logical impossibility, but judging from the other responses on the forum, I'm in good company.

To start with, I think you have a four term fallacy in your argument because you're using the word 'choose' to refer to two different things. Which is compounded by the fact that you aren't able to explain how to distinguish between the two - 'choosing' and 'really choosing' - in any substantive way. One is supposedly an illusion and the other is 'real', but according to your assertion, the 'real' one doesn't even exist, so I'm not even clear what you mean by a 'real' choice in the first place. And your answer to my question is to refer me back to the logic. It seems to me that you're not proving anything logically, you're just playing a word game with the semantics of the word 'choose' that is nothing more than an assertion that people should be calling it by a different name, but then claiming that you've made a proof that there is no free will.

We could play that game with just about anything. For example:

Do we see the nerves that we use for seeing?

1. If no, then do we really see anything?
2. If yes, then do we see the nerves that we use in seeing the nerves that we use in seeing?

etc., etc.

*************
ANSWER: No, seeing anything is logically impossible.

If vision is the ability to see, then vision is logically impossible.

QED

Now if I say to you: "If you can't understand or see the logical impossibility, then you can't" (and no, I can't either), then we have nowhere to go, do we?

You take care too friend, enjoy your weekend. :)
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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RJG
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

Thom, Lucky, Rhys, Stevie, Pattern, Jack, and Chewy:

Hey all, no offense, but to me, it seems that most, if not all of you, are running away from the basic topic question in the OP so as to avoid admitting to an ugly truth. How about we face the topic question head on?

*Do you consciously choose the thoughts that you use in choosing? -- Yes or No?

If we don't consciously choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then obviously, our choice was "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose.

And if we equate free-will with conscious control, then it is very obvious that we lack free-will. If you can't psychologically accept the ugly truth that this question exposes, then I expect that you will respond back to me with your favorite ad hominem attack....and the silly games of life go on.

************
*Note: I added the word "consciously" above to the original question to help prevent the "slippery" (avoidance type) answers typically given by those that can't psychologically accept an ugly truth.
stevie
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 16th, 2022, 7:50 am Thom, Lucky, Rhys, Stevie, Pattern, Jack, and Chewy:

Hey all, no offense, but to me, it seems that most, if not all of you, are running away from the basic topic question in the OP so as to avoid admitting to an ugly truth. How about we face the topic question head on?

*Do you consciously choose the thoughts that you use in choosing? -- Yes or No?

If we don't consciously choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then obviously, our choice was "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose.

And if we equate free-will with conscious control, then it is very obvious that we lack free-will. If you can't psychologically accept the ugly truth that this question exposes, then I expect that you will respond back to me with your favorite ad hominem attack....and the silly games of life go on.

************
*Note: I added the word "consciously" above to the original question to help prevent the "slippery" (avoidance type) answers typically given by those that can't psychologically accept an ugly truth.
For the time being you have chosen to see it that way (to think about it that way) but you might also choose to think differently about it and maybe in the future you will.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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RJG
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:If we don't consciously choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then obviously, our choice was "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose.
stevie wrote:For the time being you have chosen to see it that way (to think about it that way) but you might also choose to think differently about it and maybe in the future you will.
You seem to have forgotten. None of us can really "choose" anything. "Choosing" (aka conscious control; free-will) is just another one of the fairy-tales that we humans have been indoctrinated to foolishly believe.

We may not like hearing this truth, but truth is truth. The sooner we can accept this, the sooner that we can then see reality for what it truly is.

...or we can just stay in denial, living our fairy-tale lives. ...ignorance can be blissful after all.
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LuckyR
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: January 17th, 2022, 10:30 am
RJG wrote:If we don't consciously choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then obviously, our choice was "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose.
stevie wrote:For the time being you have chosen to see it that way (to think about it that way) but you might also choose to think differently about it and maybe in the future you will.
You seem to have forgotten. None of us can really "choose" anything. "Choosing" (aka conscious control; free-will) is just another one of the fairy-tales that we humans have been indoctrinated to foolishly believe.

We may not like hearing this truth, but truth is truth. The sooner we can accept this, the sooner that we can then see reality for what it truly is.

...or we can just stay in denial, living our fairy-tale lives. ...ignorance can be blissful after all.
Well, you are correct about the effect of ignorance on soothing the ego.
"As usual... it depends."
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RJG
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

LuckyR wrote:Well, you are correct about the effect of ignorance on soothing the ego.
Lucky, I love your ad hominemistic wit. ...if your logic was as good as your wit, you would be my hero.
stevie
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 17th, 2022, 10:30 am
RJG wrote:If we don't consciously choose the thoughts that we use in choosing, then obviously, our choice was "given" to us by the thoughts that we didn't choose.
stevie wrote:For the time being you have chosen to see it that way (to think about it that way) but you might also choose to think differently about it and maybe in the future you will.
You seem to have forgotten. None of us can really "choose" anything. "Choosing" (aka conscious control; free-will) is just another one of the fairy-tales that we humans have been indoctrinated to foolishly believe.

We may not like hearing this truth, but truth is truth. The sooner we can accept this, the sooner that we can then see reality for what it truly is.

...or we can just stay in denial, living our fairy-tale lives. ...ignorance can be blissful after all.
This is the way you choose to think about it. I for my part can choose, too, how to think about it and I certainly do not share your view although I do not believe in absolutely free will.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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RJG
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

stevie wrote:I for my part can choose, too, how to think about it…
...from what (pre-chosen) thoughts are you doing this choosing with???

-- if thoughts are needed to choose, then we could never (in our lifetime) choose a single thought.

-- if a reason yields a choice, then we could never choose the reason (without an infinite regression).

-- if A>B, then we could never get B>A.
stevie
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:14 am
stevie wrote:I for my part can choose, too, how to think about it…
...from what (pre-chosen) thoughts are you doing this choosing with???
As you yourself have probably done I've engaged in studying the thoughts uttered by others. Some appeared more persuasive than others which made me choose the direction for further investigation.
It is very unlikely that our history of learning/studying is the same which is the reason why we both at present come to different conclusions.

See, we both have been born without the ability to think conceptually. We both had to learn conceptual thinking by means of contacting our native culture, parents, and social environment and depending on our embodied human cognitive apparatus. But once the ability to think conceptually had been acquired and developed further then - based on appropriate awareness - one may gain more and more control as to one's thinking through insights into the dependencies/conditionings of it.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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RJG
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

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RJG wrote:...from what (pre-chosen) thoughts are you doing this choosing with???
stevie wrote:As you yourself have probably done I've engaged in studying the thoughts uttered by others. Some appeared more persuasive than others which made me choose the direction for further investigation.
So then, if the persuasive thoughts from others caused the thoughts in you, that made your choice, - then which thoughts did 'you' actually choose???

***********
Note: If you are trying to say that you chose persuasive thought A versus persuasive thought B, then again, from what pre-chosen (non-"given") thoughts did 'you' do this choosing with?

-- Continually kicking the can backwards in hopes of finding a non-"given", self-authored thought is futile (logically impossible; infinite regress).

If ALL our thoughts are "given" to us, then we don't have any "free" thoughts to choose with, meaning that free-will is a myth (and also logically impossible).

stevie wrote:It is very unlikely that our history of learning/studying is the same which is the reason why we both at present come to different conclusions.
The 'content' of our thoughts (our different learnings) has absolutely nothing to do with the logical impossibility of choosing our thoughts.
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AmericanKestrel
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Sculptor1 wrote: January 13th, 2022, 10:00 am Yes we do, but you have to know who is the "we" and where is it that the volition and desires that lead to choices are made.

Like Peter O'Tool said We can do what we wish but we cannot wish what we wish.
Schoppenhaer : We do as we will, but we cannot will as we will.
If what we choose is conditioned by our desires, which are conditioned by our experiences and tendencies, how much of volition is there in the choice?
Peter is right. What we wish is conditioned.
"The Serpent did not lie."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by Sculptor1 »

AmericanKestrel wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:29 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: January 13th, 2022, 10:00 am Yes we do, but you have to know who is the "we" and where is it that the volition and desires that lead to choices are made.

Like Peter O'Tool said We can do what we wish but we cannot wish what we wish.
Schoppenhaer : We do as we will, but we cannot will as we will.
If what we choose is conditioned by our desires, which are conditioned by our experiences and tendencies, how much of volition is there in the choice?
Peter is right. What we wish is conditioned.
That is what I said.
We can chose what we want, but what we want comes from a deeper place over which we have no control. We are constantly gorwing and changing, and what is volition is the outward expression of our passion and need.
stevie
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

RJG wrote: January 18th, 2022, 4:56 pm
RJG wrote:...from what (pre-chosen) thoughts are you doing this choosing with???
stevie wrote:As you yourself have probably done I've engaged in studying the thoughts uttered by others. Some appeared more persuasive than others which made me choose the direction for further investigation.
So then, if the persuasive thoughts from others caused the thoughts in you, that made your choice, - then which thoughts did 'you' actually choose???

***********
Note: If you are trying to say that you chose persuasive thought A versus persuasive thought B, then again, from what pre-chosen (non-"given") thoughts did 'you' do this choosing with?

-- Continually kicking the can backwards in hopes of finding a non-"given", self-authored thought is futile (logically impossible; infinite regress).

If ALL our thoughts are "given" to us, then we don't have any "free" thoughts to choose with, meaning that free-will is a myth (and also logically impossible).

stevie wrote:It is very unlikely that our history of learning/studying is the same which is the reason why we both at present come to different conclusions.
The 'content' of our thoughts (our different learnings) has absolutely nothing to do with the logical impossibility of choosing our thoughts.
But you are constantly applying a strawman because I've never asserted that "choosing" would apply in the context of thinking. Above I have clearly stated that "choosing" is possible only if the item choosen already exists. And I have categorized thoughts as 1. those popping up due to earlier self-conditioing and 2. those contructed intentionally with effort.
Now what is choosen in the context of 1 is the way of self-conditioning (because one prefers author A over author B when studying literature) and what is choosen in the context of 2 is the goal that is the basis for intentional effortful thinking.
However one might not be aware of these dependencies as it seems to be the case with you.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
stevie
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by stevie »

Now you may perhaps obsess again about this
stevie wrote: January 21st, 2022, 4:16 am
RJG wrote: January 18th, 2022, 4:56 pm ...
...
Now what is chosen in the context of 1 is the way of self-conditioning (because one prefers author A over author B when studying literature) and what is chosen in the context of 2 is the goal that is the basis for intentional effortful thinking.
However one might not be aware of these dependencies as it seems to be the case with you.
because I've used the word "chosen". But here is where comes in what I've written above:
stevie wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:37 am ...
See, we both have been born without the ability to think conceptually. We both had to learn conceptual thinking by means of contacting our native culture, parents, and social environment and depending on our embodied human cognitive apparatus. ...
See?

Birth -> native culture, parents, and social environment & individual embodied human cognitive apparatus -> individual preferences -> prefering author A over author B or 'finding A more persuasive than B' + choosing goals ...


So as a consquence there are no thoughts at all that are "given" but one's thinking and cognition originates dependent on these factors that oneself may partially influence due to relatively free will.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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RJG
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Re: Do we really choose anything?

Post by RJG »

stevie wrote:And I have categorized thoughts as 1. those popping up due to earlier self-conditioing and 2. those contructed intentionally with effort.
1. Yes, thoughts "pop into our head" without our conscious permission.
2. No, we cannot logically consciously or intentionally construct our own thoughts. If you don't believe me, then just ask yourself -- from which "non-constructed" thoughts will I do this construction with?"

If you did not construct (or choose/select) the thoughts that are used to construct your new thoughts, then you constructed nothing. Your (pre-constructed) thoughts are doing the construction!

It is logically impossible to be conscious of a 'content-less' thought. All our thoughts already come pre-scripted; and pre-constructed.
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