External factors are not necessarily a part of our environment. Take subliminal messages. They are artificial and we do not consent to them nor consciously perceive them, and filter them out. While they are ineffective at best, they prevent the choice from being ours.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 7th, 2022, 10:13 amI think there is evidence to show that our subconscious minds can be influenced by external factors, which guide and inform our choosing.IreneJohnson wrote: ↑February 7th, 2022, 12:26 am There is evidence to show that our subconscious minds can be influenced by external factors which limits our choosing.
Our environment, the context of our very existence, is where those "external factors" come from. It would be surprising to find someone making choices without taking their own context into account, wouldn't it? These things don't "limit" our choices; they are the context within which we make those choices, surely?
Do we really choose anything?
- IreneJohnson
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Re: Do we really choose anything?
- LuckyR
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Re: Do we really choose anything?
I think you fundamentally misunderstand the act of choosing. If I tell you to get chocolate ice cream, or if a TV ad promotes chocolate ice cream or if an undetectable subliminal message encourages you to get chocolate ice cream, and you actually choose it, you are still freely making a choice. Just as you would be if despite all three influences, you still chose vanilla. Not freely making a choice would be saying that the state of your brain chemistry and it's electrical state when the idea of having dessert came up, always leads to you saying "chocolate please" (regardless of my, the ad's and the subliminal messaging's input). That would be predetermination.IreneJohnson wrote: ↑February 8th, 2022, 1:21 amExternal factors are not necessarily a part of our environment. Take subliminal messages. They are artificial and we do not consent to them nor consciously perceive them, and filter them out. While they are ineffective at best, they prevent the choice from being ours.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑February 7th, 2022, 10:13 amI think there is evidence to show that our subconscious minds can be influenced by external factors, which guide and inform our choosing.IreneJohnson wrote: ↑February 7th, 2022, 12:26 am There is evidence to show that our subconscious minds can be influenced by external factors which limits our choosing.
Our environment, the context of our very existence, is where those "external factors" come from. It would be surprising to find someone making choices without taking their own context into account, wouldn't it? These things don't "limit" our choices; they are the context within which we make those choices, surely?
Free in this context does not mean free of influences, it means not predetermined.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: Do we really choose anything?
I think our environment consists of "external factors", don't you? If not, then what does our environment comprise?IreneJohnson wrote: ↑February 8th, 2022, 1:21 am External factors are not necessarily a part of our environment.
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2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
2023 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023