Infinity defines itself

[PaulEBenjamin]

Proposal and (please read on for my explanation) Conclusion, per se:
The generally agree upon definitions of the concept of true infinity appear to be able to justify infinity by using its own existence to prove itself.

Explanation:
I realize that traditional philosophical practices almost as a rule state that a thing cannot be used to prove itself. I'm talking standard proofs using arguments and conclusions, etc.

However, infinity by its very definition(s) is literally that anything that can exist does (and does not, simultaneously) because even those things that cannot exist must be able to, given infinity. That is, truly believing in infinity means...literally anything is possible (and impossible, simultaneously). Infinity, remember, does not encompass merely physical things, but also our thoughts, ideas, heaven, "we're all in some alien's necklace", etc., and literally no end to physical or spiritual "space". Infinity is EVERYTHING. FOREVER. (sorry for the yelling )

This seems to not only allow infinity to prove itself (something that philosophy argues cannot happen) and also cement that proof in the fact that by philosophy literally stating it cannot happen, it must be able to happen.

I suppose I go so far as to argue that you have to realize that even Infinity being able to prove itself (if true) also proves that that is completely impossible. And...I'm OK with that.

Thoughts?

[SteveKlinko]

Proposal and (please read on for my explanation) Conclusion, per se:
The generally agree upon definitions of the concept of true infinity appear to be able to justify infinity by using its own existence to prove itself.

Explanation:
I realize that traditional philosophical practices almost as a rule state that a thing cannot be used to prove itself. I'm talking standard proofs using arguments and conclusions, etc.

However, infinity by its very definition(s) is literally that anything that can exist does (and does not, simultaneously) because even those things that cannot exist must be able to, given infinity. That is, truly believing in infinity means...literally anything is possible (and impossible, simultaneously). Infinity, remember, does not encompass merely physical things, but also our thoughts, ideas, heaven, "we're all in some alien's necklace", etc., and literally no end to physical or spiritual "space". Infinity is EVERYTHING. FOREVER. (sorry for the yelling )

This seems to not only allow infinity to prove itself (something that philosophy argues cannot happen) and also cement that proof in the fact that by philosophy literally stating it cannot happen, it must be able to happen.

I suppose I go so far as to argue that you have to realize that even Infinity being able to prove itself (if true) also proves that that is completely impossible. And...I'm OK with that.

Thoughts?

See https://theintermind.com/HowToConceptua ... Number.asp for some thoughts on Infinity and Zero.

I think your premise that "Things That Cannot Exist" will be able to exist given an Infinite amount of time is just not true. If I keep adding Zero to itself the sum will always be Zero. A non Zero sum of Zeros cannot exist and will not exist no matter how many times you add another Zero. In the limit we can write the equation:

Infinity x Zero = Zero

Which results in the realization that: Zero is more powerful than Infinity.

[PaulEBenjamin]

I think your premise that "Things That Cannot Exist" will be able to exist given an Infinite amount of time is just not true. If I keep adding Zero to itself the sum will always be Zero. A non Zero sum of Zeros cannot exist and will not exist no matter how many times you add another Zero. In the limit we can write the equation:

Infinity x Zero = Zero

Which results in the realization that: Zero is more powerful than Infinity.

I appreciate the reply!

Please though keep in mind that a mathematical proof like that assumes humans know everything there is to know about using math to prove things like this. "Infinity" truly encompasses all knowledge, including that which we are not yet aware. Therefore, Zero is indeed more "powerful" than infinity, and yet, also, could be (is) not.

[SteveKlinko]

I think your premise that "Things That Cannot Exist" will be able to exist given an Infinite amount of time is just not true. If I keep adding Zero to itself the sum will always be Zero. A non Zero sum of Zeros cannot exist and will not exist no matter how many times you add another Zero. In the limit we can write the equation:

Infinity x Zero = Zero

Which results in the realization that: Zero is more powerful than Infinity.

I appreciate the reply!

Please though keep in mind that a mathematical proof like that assumes humans know everything there is to know about using math to prove things like this. "Infinity" truly encompasses all knowledge, including that which we are not yet aware. Therefore, Zero is indeed more "powerful" than infinity, and yet, also, could be (is) not.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero. This can never not be true. It seems like a basic property of Zero. I'll also throw in that I don't think there are or can be Infinite things of any kind, including Infinite Time. You cannot even have infinite points on a line. As soon as you would have Infinite points, then the distance between the points would have to be Zero and all the points on the line would collapse onto a single point. Infinite points on a line are actually an absurdity that cannot exist. All other concepts of the number of points approaching Infinity and the distance being differentially small never produce an actual Infinity of points on a line. This only approaches Infinity.

[TryingMyBest]

I think your premise that "Things That Cannot Exist" will be able to exist given an Infinite amount of time is just not true. If I keep adding Zero to itself the sum will always be Zero. A non Zero sum of Zeros cannot exist and will not exist no matter how many times you add another Zero. In the limit we can write the equation:

Infinity x Zero = Zero

Which results in the realization that: Zero is more powerful than Infinity.

I appreciate the reply!

Please though keep in mind that a mathematical proof like that assumes humans know everything there is to know about using math to prove things like this. "Infinity" truly encompasses all knowledge, including that which we are not yet aware. Therefore, Zero is indeed more "powerful" than infinity, and yet, also, could be (is) not.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero. This can never not be true. It seems like a basic property of Zero. I'll also throw in that I don't think there are or can be Infinite things of any kind, including Infinite Time. You cannot even have infinite points on a line. As soon as you would have Infinite points, then the distance between the points would have to be Zero and all the points on the line would collapse onto a single point. Infinite points on a line are actually an absurdity that cannot exist. All other concepts of the number of points approaching Infinity and the distance being differentially small never produce an actual Infinity of points on a line. This only approaches Infinity.

I propose that 1 divided by infinity equals zero; and that being true, infinity x ( 1 / infinity) = 1 must also be true [using algebraic substitution].
This seems to me to refute that “there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero”.
Also, what if infinity does not exist, like if the universe was finite or something?
I like this creative topic.

[SteveKlinko]

I think your premise that "Things That Cannot Exist" will be able to exist given an Infinite amount of time is just not true. If I keep adding Zero to itself the sum will always be Zero. A non Zero sum of Zeros cannot exist and will not exist no matter how many times you add another Zero. In the limit we can write the equation:

Infinity x Zero = Zero

Which results in the realization that: Zero is more powerful than Infinity.

I appreciate the reply!

Please though keep in mind that a mathematical proof like that assumes humans know everything there is to know about using math to prove things like this. "Infinity" truly encompasses all knowledge, including that which we are not yet aware. Therefore, Zero is indeed more "powerful" than infinity, and yet, also, could be (is) not.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero. This can never not be true. It seems like a basic property of Zero. I'll also throw in that I don't think there are or can be Infinite things of any kind, including Infinite Time. You cannot even have infinite points on a line. As soon as you would have Infinite points, then the distance between the points would have to be Zero and all the points on the line would collapse onto a single point. Infinite points on a line are actually an absurdity that cannot exist. All other concepts of the number of points approaching Infinity and the distance being differentially small never produce an actual Infinity of points on a line. This only approaches Infinity.

I propose that 1 divided by infinity equals zero; and that being true, infinity x ( 1 / infinity) = 1 must also be true [using algebraic substitution].
This seems to me to refute that “there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero”.
Also, what if infinity does not exist, like if the universe was finite or something?
I like this creative topic.

You are just stating a different problem of what does Infinity / Infinity equal. You are wrong in assuming it is 1. You cannot just divide Infinity by Itself and expect it to work like regular algebra. Your very definition of the problem shows that Infinity / Infinity = Zero. Because the problem is really Infinity * (I / Infinity) = Infinity * Zero = Zero. Infinity is a threshold where regular Mathematics and Algebra breaks down. Scientists know that if an equation contains Singularities then something is wrong with the equation. This is true for many equations in Science.
You might like this: https://theintermind.com/HowToConceptua ... Number.asp

[PaulEBenjamin]

Infinity is a threshold where regular Mathematics and Algebra breaks down.

This does not surprise me. And the fact you know this makes me curious why you are using Mathematics to try to prove/disprove my thoughts on Infinity. Trust me, I am grateful for your perspective. Genuinely wondering if there is anything else we can try besides basic math theory on this. Good stuff!

[TryingMyBest]

I appreciate the reply!

Please though keep in mind that a mathematical proof like that assumes humans know everything there is to know about using math to prove things like this. "Infinity" truly encompasses all knowledge, including that which we are not yet aware. Therefore, Zero is indeed more "powerful" than infinity, and yet, also, could be (is) not.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero. This can never not be true. It seems like a basic property of Zero. I'll also throw in that I don't think there are or can be Infinite things of any kind, including Infinite Time. You cannot even have infinite points on a line. As soon as you would have Infinite points, then the distance between the points would have to be Zero and all the points on the line would collapse onto a single point. Infinite points on a line are actually an absurdity that cannot exist. All other concepts of the number of points approaching Infinity and the distance being differentially small never produce an actual Infinity of points on a line. This only approaches Infinity.

I propose that 1 divided by infinity equals zero; and that being true, infinity x ( 1 / infinity) = 1 must also be true [using algebraic substitution].
This seems to me to refute that “there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero”.
Also, what if infinity does not exist, like if the universe was finite or something?
I like this creative topic.

You are just stating a different problem of what does Infinity / Infinity equal. You are wrong in assuming it is 1. You cannot just divide Infinity by Itself and expect it to work like regular algebra. Your very definition of the problem shows that Infinity / Infinity = Zero. Because the problem is really Infinity * (I / Infinity) = Infinity * Zero = Zero. Infinity is a threshold where regular Mathematics and Algebra breaks down. Scientists know that if an equation contains Singularities then something is wrong with the equation. This is true for many equations in Science.
You might like this: https://theintermind.com/HowToConceptua ... Number.asp

Singularities were not covered in the link, care to elaborate? If I “can’t use regular algebra” then why can you?
I disagree that I am wrong. I still think that “1/infinity” CANNOT be reduced to absolute Zero value because that claim removes real information from the sentence. (An atom is not “no atom” regardless whether the Universe is infinite; the answer is > 0 and can’t ever actually reach Zero.) That is also to propose that “7/infinity” equals “7/infinity” only; which carries more information that calling it all just zero. I argue that you shouldn’t reduce it as it loses part of what it is, in essence, it’s not identical so it can’t be called equal.
Are you saying that 7/infinity is equal to (and not less than) 8/infinity? It seems clear that for any large positive number “N”, “7 / N < 8 / N” is True. Prove you’re right, because if you are simply defining Zero as “anything divided by infinity”, you are missing the point of the essence of absence, which is what absolute Zero represents. Your method uses infinity as an information eraser, yet values it less when it’s above the dividing line? - that seems insincere. SOMETHING divided by EVERYTHING is more than nothing divided by everything, right?
How is this statement provably False: “((5 x infinity) / (1 x infinity)) > ((1 x infinity) / (5 x infinity))”? It is clearly true and your process removes that information/knowledge so is just an approximation of truth, not the real absolute truth.
For any large number N, “N/N=1”. 1/infinity is not exactly zero, because it’s more than 0/infinity. So I am stuck on that point.

[TryingMyBest]

Summarized:

“Infinity > (infinity/infinity) > Zero”.

[SteveKlinko]

Infinity is a threshold where regular Mathematics and Algebra breaks down.

This does not surprise me. And the fact you know this makes me curious why you are using Mathematics to try to prove/disprove my thoughts on Infinity. Trust me, I am grateful for your perspective. Genuinely wondering if there is anything else we can try besides basic math theory on this. Good stuff!

I use mathematics because Infinity is a Huge problem in mathematics (pun intended). Since Mathematics breaks down with Infinities, I think this is a clue that, any other chain of Logic with regard to anything, will also break down. We have to realize that there can be no such thing as an Infinite anything.

[SteveKlinko]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero. This can never not be true. It seems like a basic property of Zero. I'll also throw in that I don't think there are or can be Infinite things of any kind, including Infinite Time. You cannot even have infinite points on a line. As soon as you would have Infinite points, then the distance between the points would have to be Zero and all the points on the line would collapse onto a single point. Infinite points on a line are actually an absurdity that cannot exist. All other concepts of the number of points approaching Infinity and the distance being differentially small never produce an actual Infinity of points on a line. This only approaches Infinity.

I propose that 1 divided by infinity equals zero; and that being true, infinity x ( 1 / infinity) = 1 must also be true [using algebraic substitution].
This seems to me to refute that “there is no ambiguity about Infinity x Zero = Zero”.
Also, what if infinity does not exist, like if the universe was finite or something?
I like this creative topic.

You are just stating a different problem of what does Infinity / Infinity equal. You are wrong in assuming it is 1. You cannot just divide Infinity by Itself and expect it to work like regular algebra. Your very definition of the problem shows that Infinity / Infinity = Zero. Because the problem is really Infinity * (I / Infinity) = Infinity * Zero = Zero. Infinity is a threshold where regular Mathematics and Algebra breaks down. Scientists know that if an equation contains Singularities then something is wrong with the equation. This is true for many equations in Science.
You might like this: https://theintermind.com/HowToConceptua ... Number.asp

Singularities were not covered in the link, care to elaborate? If I “can’t use regular algebra” then why can you?
I disagree that I am wrong. I still think that “1/infinity” CANNOT be reduced to absolute Zero value because that claim removes real information from the sentence. (An atom is not “no atom” regardless whether the Universe is infinite; the answer is > 0 and can’t ever actually reach Zero.) That is also to propose that “7/infinity” equals “7/infinity” only; which carries more information that calling it all just zero. I argue that you shouldn’t reduce it as it loses part of what it is, in essence, it’s not identical so it can’t be called equal.
Are you saying that 7/infinity is equal to (and not less than) 8/infinity? It seems clear that for any large positive number “N”, “7 / N < 8 / N” is True. Prove you’re right, because if you are simply defining Zero as “anything divided by infinity”, you are missing the point of the essence of absence, which is what absolute Zero represents. Your method uses infinity as an information eraser, yet values it less when it’s above the dividing line? - that seems insincere. SOMETHING divided by EVERYTHING is more than nothing divided by everything, right?
How is this statement provably False: “((5 x infinity) / (1 x infinity)) > ((1 x infinity) / (5 x infinity))”? It is clearly true and your process removes that information/knowledge so is just an approximation of truth, not the real absolute truth.
For any large number N, “N/N=1”. 1/infinity is not exactly zero, because it’s more than 0/infinity. So I am stuck on that point.

Singularities are another name for the Mathematical situation where a function goes to Infinity.

Truth is that: 1/Infinity = 7/Infinity = (Avogadro's Number)/Infinity = Zero. That is the power of Infinity. Infinity is a is not Nice to Algebra and Calculus. I think most people are too used to thinking of Infinity in terms of Limit processes approaching Infinity. But you must take the Limit process to the ultimate Limit of actually being Infinity. You should hypothesize about what does it really mean for a Limit process to BE Infinite. Being Infinite is something completely different than approaching Infinity. The net effect of this is that dx is always > Zero and 1/dx is always < Infinity.

1/Infinity = Zero. Only 1 / (something approaching Infinity) > Zero. Infinity is a Threshold that changes everything you know about the reality of Infinities.

((5 x infinity) / (1 x infinity)) > ((1 x infinity) / (5 x infinity)) is FALSE because:

5/Infinity = Zero and 1/Infinity = Zero so you are saying that:
Zero/Zero > Zero/Zero which is undefined.

But you can say Zero/Zero = (1/Infinity) * Zero = Zero

The key is to start with 1/Infinity = Zero and 1/Zero = Infinity.
These are the only two certainties when dealing with actual Infinities and Zeros.

Infinity is a Mathematical deal breaker and requires special treatment.
Mathematicians hate Infinities.
Infinities are the hidden Gremlins of Mathematics.

[SteveKlinko]

In the above I should have said:
Zero/Zero = (1/Infinity) * (1/Zero) = Zero * Infinity = Zero

[PaulEBenjamin]

Infinity is a threshold where regular Mathematics and Algebra breaks down.

This does not surprise me. And the fact you know this makes me curious why you are using Mathematics to try to prove/disprove my thoughts on Infinity. Trust me, I am grateful for your perspective. Genuinely wondering if there is anything else we can try besides basic math theory on this. Good stuff!

I use mathematics because Infinity is a Huge problem in mathematics (pun intended). Since Mathematics breaks down with Infinities, I think this is a clue that, any other chain of Logic with regard to anything, will also break down. We have to realize that there can be no such thing as an Infinite anything.

However, stating "there can be no such thing" is an 'absolute truth' type of statement. Therefore: it is never false. Therefore:
1. Set Infinity to "something that absolutely cannot be".
2. Therefore, it is never possible for Infinity to be.
3. Therefore, Infinity can only exist where things are not possible.

Next, enter into this a truth some people believe, which is: Time is not real from the perspective of a single thing that is measurable, but instead is a representation of the happening of events as a figure (e.g. "10 minutes ago") that shows how their happenings relate to one another in a observable sequential order.

So, basically, I ask you take time out of all this. Or rather, temporarily (no pun intended!) see this from the perspective that there is no absolute proof that there is or is not an end (per se) to the happening of events. So if Infinity can only exist where things are not possible, it would have to exist "outside of time" as some people say. Because time is 'real' in one form or another, at least from the perspective that humans observe the happening of events in similar ways to one another as to be able to agree on how to measure said happenings.

I find myself about to put some kind of conclusion on here, and yet feeling my own perspective has shifted a bit while typing this. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to investigate if Infinity and Time can exist simultaneously. Because if they cannot, then would that be a step towards understanding where/how Infinity could exist: Where Time does not.

I've not done much reading into Time in general so I'm muddy there. But thankful for the changing perspective!

[SteveKlinko]

Infinity is a threshold where regular Mathematics and Algebra breaks down.

This does not surprise me. And the fact you know this makes me curious why you are using Mathematics to try to prove/disprove my thoughts on Infinity. Trust me, I am grateful for your perspective. Genuinely wondering if there is anything else we can try besides basic math theory on this. Good stuff!

I use mathematics because Infinity is a Huge problem in mathematics (pun intended). Since Mathematics breaks down with Infinities, I think this is a clue that, any other chain of Logic with regard to anything, will also break down. We have to realize that there can be no such thing as an Infinite anything.

However, stating "there can be no such thing" is an 'absolute truth' type of statement. Therefore: it is never false. Therefore:
1. Set Infinity to "something that absolutely cannot be".
2. Therefore, it is never possible for Infinity to be.
3. Therefore, Infinity can only exist where things are not possible.

Next, enter into this a truth some people believe, which is: Time is not real from the perspective of a single thing that is measurable, but instead is a representation of the happening of events as a figure (e.g. "10 minutes ago") that shows how their happenings relate to one another in a observable sequential order.

So, basically, I ask you take time out of all this. Or rather, temporarily (no pun intended!) see this from the perspective that there is no absolute proof that there is or is not an end (per se) to the happening of events. So if Infinity can only exist where things are not possible, it would have to exist "outside of time" as some people say. Because time is 'real' in one form or another, at least from the perspective that humans observe the happening of events in similar ways to one another as to be able to agree on how to measure said happenings.

I find myself about to put some kind of conclusion on here, and yet feeling my own perspective has shifted a bit while typing this. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to investigate if Infinity and Time can exist simultaneously. Because if they cannot, then would that be a step towards understanding where/how Infinity could exist: Where Time does not.

I've not done much reading into Time in general so I'm muddy there. But thankful for the changing perspective!

I think I would say for number 3: Therefore, Infinity is in the group of things that are not possible. Saying that it "can only exist" in the group of impossible things gives it a sense of being possible.

Time is a tough one. But more and more I have come closer to the conclusion that Time as a separate Phenomenon does not exist. Time is an artifact of the motion and Interaction of Physical Objects. Physical Objects can be Stars and Planets or Atoms and sub atomic Particles. Without a Physical Universe there can be no concept of Time because Time is not real and only exists as the relationship between Physical Objects. So before the Big Bang there was no Time and therefore no Infinite past. There is only always the eternal Now. The upshot of all this is that Time Travel is impossible because the phenomenon of Time does not exist and there is nothing to Travel back or forward in.

[PaulEBenjamin]

Time is a tough one. But more and more I have come closer to the conclusion that Time as a separate Phenomenon does not exist. Time is an artifact of the motion and Interaction of Physical Objects. Physical Objects can be Stars and Planets or Atoms and sub atomic Particles. Without a Physical Universe there can be no concept of Time because Time is not real and only exists as the relationship between Physical Objects. So before the Big Bang there was no Time and therefore no Infinite past. There is only always the eternal Now. The upshot of all this is that Time Travel is impossible because the phenomenon of Time does not exist and there is nothing to Travel back or forward in.

I agree with most of what you say here, and well said it is. Especially the part about Time Travel! Then again, if we revisit Infinity, "time travel" is not possible in the like Hollywood sense, and yet, since "the eternal now" (love that!) is all there is, Infinity would mean it's possible for all "nows" to exist simultaneously, and therefore in every moment, and so you could "travel" per se to any 'now'...if you knew how. Or more like you could simply be in whatever now you want.

This leads to why (outside science) things like deja vu happen.

Anyways, "There is only always the eternal Now." sounds like an argument *FOR* Infinity rather than against! hah. Can you see how I interpret it like that?