The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

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JackDaydream
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by JackDaydream »

3017Metaphysician wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 2:18 pm
JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2022, 6:19 pm The main basis for this question is based on the writings of the psychology and philosophy of Ken Wilber. His initial theory of individual cognitive development was derived on the ideas of stages, described by Freud, Piaget and Kohlberg in psychology. He also looks at the emphasis on higher states of awareness in some systems of spiritual thought, including Christianity and Buddhism. I am aware that some people may see putting these two aspects together as unhelpful.

However, in his later writings he sees the emphasis on hierarchies of awareness as problematic philosophically. It may involve values about the superiority of the higher states of awareness in evolution. This leads to the underlying issue about whether development of consciousness in evolution and in individual awareness is also about increase, progression or ascent.

Jung's model of the human mind and consciousness involved integration of the lower and higher aspects of the self. Of course, this is bound up with a belief in the unconscious as a source of potential consciousness.

I don't wish to make this topic too obscure or theoretical at this stage. Initially, I am asking whether you this aspect of consciousness as important philosophically. I have put it into the section on metaphysics and epistemology because it is primarily about models of consciousness, but I am aware that it is both connected to spiritual models and those of science in thinking about the nature of conscious awareness in evolution. Is human consciousness the ultimate expression of it or not? Does the idea of 'levels' of consciousness make sense? It may come down to the question: what is consciousness?
Hey Jack!

Lots of great responses here to this wonderful thread. I read through some but not all. A couple examples that quckly come to mind in bullet-point fashion:

'Levels' of awareness:

1. The physicist who discovers a new mathematical formula that captures time travel/relativity, black hole information/entropy, the laws of gravity, ad nauseum. (This more or less assumes mathematics itself is not completely a human invention, i.e., that it's 'out there' waiting to be discovered. .)
2. The musician who becomes aware of the 'chorus' part of a piece in order to express the feeling of tension and release and completes the composition.
3. The baby who develops their own levels of conscious awareness through memory and experience.
4. The adult who was made aware of a different way of Being.

I'd like to briefly parse the last one. One can easily reflect on their past and come away with revelations of: 'gee, why did I do that 20 years ago, I would have done that differently now'. This also assumes that the blank canvas of consciousness gets filled with information that seems useful in a mostly good or virtuous way (assuming the behavior is so-called 'better' now). In this case, we almost have an Aristotelian 'paradigm' of, with knowledge (and less ignorance) comes a higher level of awareness (good or bad)... " The high-minded man must care more for the truth than for what people think".

The evolution piece though is interesting. The questions for the extreme Darwinian, has ethics evolved? Has the feeling and desire for love, and the needs for connection and/or relationships with others evolved? Has the intrinsic human need for meaning, purpose and happiness evolved? If so, in what ways (?)

Mind you, that is not to be confused with having insatiable needs and/or living an ordinary life of striving (after one need is satisfied, another one takes its place-Maslow).

Just some quick thoughts...great thread!
Thanks for your reply and sorry it's taken me a couple of days, which was because I got caught up in thinking about another thread topic. I am glad that you like this topic and the slant of it is more of about the development of consciousness than others, and also the experience of consciousness.

One aspect which I wonder about is the parallel between the collective and individual aspects of consciousness. Of course, each person's development has unique features but it may be that the individual recapitulates processes which have been developed in the evolution of humanity. The idea of the individual as a blank state of consciousness, which is held by John Locke and Steven Pinker, is open to dispute, although it is unclear how the child's consciousness develops because it is so bound up with the development of language.

It is so easy to look back at things said and done in the past and query why? I even do that about my own responses in the last year or two. It may not be about major changes in consciousness necessarily but about how a particular situation looked while locked into though rather than merely a big change in one's consciousness. If anything, I feel that I have not changed that much in consciousness through life even though I have made lots of mistakes. Despite questioning so much my basic narrative identity seems consistent since childhood. I can remember my thinking processes back as far as starting school and a some memories before and feel that the essential 'I' has not changed. Perhaps, it will happen yet, with some grand enlightenment! I don't know if you feel that your consciousness has changed that much, or as you would like it to.

Maslow's ideas on conscious awareness are relevant. As far as I am aware the processes of meeting the various aspects of the hierarchy weave in and out of life. In some ways it felt easier to reach for the higher ones during childhood and adolescence when all the basic physical needs, and some social ones, were met whereas in adulthood having to find the basic ones, such as accommodation and money to survive distract from the ones of self actualization. However, that is not to say that creativity is not important like in childhood. The difficulties of the lower needs can be linked to the search for awareness though, in being incorporated in the quest for creative expression and in practicing some kinds of meditation. I don't always find it easy to meditate and a lot of people seem to find this, but I do find meditation and the associated quest for awareness more helpful in difficult times. This may be related to what some writers have spoken of as 'the dark night of the soul' being an important step in greater conscious awareness.
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

JackDaydream wrote: June 6th, 2022, 6:56 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 2:18 pm
JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2022, 6:19 pm The main basis for this question is based on the writings of the psychology and philosophy of Ken Wilber. His initial theory of individual cognitive development was derived on the ideas of stages, described by Freud, Piaget and Kohlberg in psychology. He also looks at the emphasis on higher states of awareness in some systems of spiritual thought, including Christianity and Buddhism. I am aware that some people may see putting these two aspects together as unhelpful.

However, in his later writings he sees the emphasis on hierarchies of awareness as problematic philosophically. It may involve values about the superiority of the higher states of awareness in evolution. This leads to the underlying issue about whether development of consciousness in evolution and in individual awareness is also about increase, progression or ascent.

Jung's model of the human mind and consciousness involved integration of the lower and higher aspects of the self. Of course, this is bound up with a belief in the unconscious as a source of potential consciousness.

I don't wish to make this topic too obscure or theoretical at this stage. Initially, I am asking whether you this aspect of consciousness as important philosophically. I have put it into the section on metaphysics and epistemology because it is primarily about models of consciousness, but I am aware that it is both connected to spiritual models and those of science in thinking about the nature of conscious awareness in evolution. Is human consciousness the ultimate expression of it or not? Does the idea of 'levels' of consciousness make sense? It may come down to the question: what is consciousness?
Hey Jack!

Lots of great responses here to this wonderful thread. I read through some but not all. A couple examples that quckly come to mind in bullet-point fashion:

'Levels' of awareness:

1. The physicist who discovers a new mathematical formula that captures time travel/relativity, black hole information/entropy, the laws of gravity, ad nauseum. (This more or less assumes mathematics itself is not completely a human invention, i.e., that it's 'out there' waiting to be discovered. .)
2. The musician who becomes aware of the 'chorus' part of a piece in order to express the feeling of tension and release and completes the composition.
3. The baby who develops their own levels of conscious awareness through memory and experience.
4. The adult who was made aware of a different way of Being.

I'd like to briefly parse the last one. One can easily reflect on their past and come away with revelations of: 'gee, why did I do that 20 years ago, I would have done that differently now'. This also assumes that the blank canvas of consciousness gets filled with information that seems useful in a mostly good or virtuous way (assuming the behavior is so-called 'better' now). In this case, we almost have an Aristotelian 'paradigm' of, with knowledge (and less ignorance) comes a higher level of awareness (good or bad)... " The high-minded man must care more for the truth than for what people think".

The evolution piece though is interesting. The questions for the extreme Darwinian, has ethics evolved? Has the feeling and desire for love, and the needs for connection and/or relationships with others evolved? Has the intrinsic human need for meaning, purpose and happiness evolved? If so, in what ways (?)

Mind you, that is not to be confused with having insatiable needs and/or living an ordinary life of striving (after one need is satisfied, another one takes its place-Maslow).

Just some quick thoughts...great thread!
Thanks for your reply and sorry it's taken me a couple of days, which was because I got caught up in thinking about another thread topic. I am glad that you like this topic and the slant of it is more of about the development of consciousness than others, and also the experience of consciousness.

One aspect which I wonder about is the parallel between the collective and individual aspects of consciousness. Of course, each person's development has unique features but it may be that the individual recapitulates processes which have been developed in the evolution of humanity. The idea of the individual as a blank state of consciousness, which is held by John Locke and Steven Pinker, is open to dispute, although it is unclear how the child's consciousness develops because it is so bound up with the development of language.

It is so easy to look back at things said and done in the past and query why? I even do that about my own responses in the last year or two. It may not be about major changes in consciousness necessarily but about how a particular situation looked while locked into though rather than merely a big change in one's consciousness. If anything, I feel that I have not changed that much in consciousness through life even though I have made lots of mistakes. Despite questioning so much my basic narrative identity seems consistent since childhood. I can remember my thinking processes back as far as starting school and a some memories before and feel that the essential 'I' has not changed. Perhaps, it will happen yet, with some grand enlightenment! I don't know if you feel that your consciousness has changed that much, or as you would like it to.

Maslow's ideas on conscious awareness are relevant. As far as I am aware the processes of meeting the various aspects of the hierarchy weave in and out of life. In some ways it felt easier to reach for the higher ones during childhood and adolescence when all the basic physical needs, and some social ones, were met whereas in adulthood having to find the basic ones, such as accommodation and money to survive distract from the ones of self actualization. However, that is not to say that creativity is not important like in childhood. The difficulties of the lower needs can be linked to the search for awareness though, in being incorporated in the quest for creative expression and in practicing some kinds of meditation. I don't always find it easy to meditate and a lot of people seem to find this, but I do find meditation and the associated quest for awareness more helpful in difficult times. This may be related to what some writers have spoken of as 'the dark night of the soul' being an important step in greater conscious awareness.
Jack!

Aside from the phenomena of the conscious mind discovering something completely novel by revelation (the creative scientist, artist, physicist, doctor, etc.), and thereby reaching higher levels of awareness about a thing, I do find it fascinating that with time and experience one can completely change their view about the same thing. Albeit some core things don't change, there are many that do.

And these things don't have any Darwinian survival value, they relate to quality of life (Qualia) kinds of things (inventions, medical science, music appreciation, etc.). In a similar way of quality-of-life stuff, consider in one's youth their perspective on relationships may be such that they are aggressive toward their peers or professional relations, yet when they become more seasoned in their craft, their perspective may change (one's own management style, philosophical and interpersonal views, and so on). And so one question there would be 'why did I perceive that thing that particular way when now I have the opposite view'(?). Or, say the phenomena of love is such that a person at one time was not concerned with those kinds of interpersonal things, then suddenly they change and become concerned more with those kinds of feelings... .

Those kinds of things seem to be relative to levels of awareness from a existential or humanistic point of view... .
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by The Beast »

It is a Kantonian burden to live up to a personal code based on Universal intuitive principles. There is complexity in the way the principles are received by the methods which in turn relay in “qualitative and quantitative variables” I see a division to demonstrate the collective as an effort to separate the utilitarian from this which is Universal. Hence the term moral realism. It is in Jung own words we might find the concept of the collective and separate this concept from that which is “too broadly a term and therefore too vague and nebulous” What is more, Jung discount suggestive ideas in his excursions of Kant’s philosophy to assert the empiricism of an existence of a psyche outside consciousness. It was Loyola’s description Jung paraphrased in:
“Recognized that man’s consciousness was created to the end that it may:
Recognized its descent from a higher unity.
Pay due and careful regard to this source.
Execute its commands intelligently and responsibly; and thereby afford the psyche as a whole the optimum degree of life and development.”
The separation of consciousness to just an element of the psyche implies a conscious recognition of any input from the limbic system. Inputs that are recognized by consciousness are psychic contents as well to those that are not. At a personal level, the feeling of rejection in a child may not have the corresponding conscious content since there is no knowledge and no dialectic construction. So, the feeling is felt by a method but, the incipient consciousness did not recognize it. This recognition is the basis of the understanding.
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by JackDaydream »

3017Metaphysician wrote: June 6th, 2022, 8:12 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 6th, 2022, 6:56 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 2:18 pm
JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2022, 6:19 pm The main basis for this question is based on the writings of the psychology and philosophy of Ken Wilber. His initial theory of individual cognitive development was derived on the ideas of stages, described by Freud, Piaget and Kohlberg in psychology. He also looks at the emphasis on higher states of awareness in some systems of spiritual thought, including Christianity and Buddhism. I am aware that some people may see putting these two aspects together as unhelpful.

However, in his later writings he sees the emphasis on hierarchies of awareness as problematic philosophically. It may involve values about the superiority of the higher states of awareness in evolution. This leads to the underlying issue about whether development of consciousness in evolution and in individual awareness is also about increase, progression or ascent.

Jung's model of the human mind and consciousness involved integration of the lower and higher aspects of the self. Of course, this is bound up with a belief in the unconscious as a source of potential consciousness.

I don't wish to make this topic too obscure or theoretical at this stage. Initially, I am asking whether you this aspect of consciousness as important philosophically. I have put it into the section on metaphysics and epistemology because it is primarily about models of consciousness, but I am aware that it is both connected to spiritual models and those of science in thinking about the nature of conscious awareness in evolution. Is human consciousness the ultimate expression of it or not? Does the idea of 'levels' of consciousness make sense? It may come down to the question: what is consciousness?
Hey Jack!

Lots of great responses here to this wonderful thread. I read through some but not all. A couple examples that quckly come to mind in bullet-point fashion:

'Levels' of awareness:

1. The physicist who discovers a new mathematical formula that captures time travel/relativity, black hole information/entropy, the laws of gravity, ad nauseum. (This more or less assumes mathematics itself is not completely a human invention, i.e., that it's 'out there' waiting to be discovered. .)
2. The musician who becomes aware of the 'chorus' part of a piece in order to express the feeling of tension and release and completes the composition.
3. The baby who develops their own levels of conscious awareness through memory and experience.
4. The adult who was made aware of a different way of Being.

I'd like to briefly parse the last one. One can easily reflect on their past and come away with revelations of: 'gee, why did I do that 20 years ago, I would have done that differently now'. This also assumes that the blank canvas of consciousness gets filled with information that seems useful in a mostly good or virtuous way (assuming the behavior is so-called 'better' now). In this case, we almost have an Aristotelian 'paradigm' of, with knowledge (and less ignorance) comes a higher level of awareness (good or bad)... " The high-minded man must care more for the truth than for what people think".

The evolution piece though is interesting. The questions for the extreme Darwinian, has ethics evolved? Has the feeling and desire for love, and the needs for connection and/or relationships with others evolved? Has the intrinsic human need for meaning, purpose and happiness evolved? If so, in what ways (?)

Mind you, that is not to be confused with having insatiable needs and/or living an ordinary life of striving (after one need is satisfied, another one takes its place-Maslow).

Just some quick thoughts...great thread!
Thanks for your reply and sorry it's taken me a couple of days, which was because I got caught up in thinking about another thread topic. I am glad that you like this topic and the slant of it is more of about the development of consciousness than others, and also the experience of consciousness.

One aspect which I wonder about is the parallel between the collective and individual aspects of consciousness. Of course, each person's development has unique features but it may be that the individual recapitulates processes which have been developed in the evolution of humanity. The idea of the individual as a blank state of consciousness, which is held by John Locke and Steven Pinker, is open to dispute, although it is unclear how the child's consciousness develops because it is so bound up with the development of language.

It is so easy to look back at things said and done in the past and query why? I even do that about my own responses in the last year or two. It may not be about major changes in consciousness necessarily but about how a particular situation looked while locked into though rather than merely a big change in one's consciousness. If anything, I feel that I have not changed that much in consciousness through life even though I have made lots of mistakes. Despite questioning so much my basic narrative identity seems consistent since childhood. I can remember my thinking processes back as far as starting school and a some memories before and feel that the essential 'I' has not changed. Perhaps, it will happen yet, with some grand enlightenment! I don't know if you feel that your consciousness has changed that much, or as you would like it to.

Maslow's ideas on conscious awareness are relevant. As far as I am aware the processes of meeting the various aspects of the hierarchy weave in and out of life. In some ways it felt easier to reach for the higher ones during childhood and adolescence when all the basic physical needs, and some social ones, were met whereas in adulthood having to find the basic ones, such as accommodation and money to survive distract from the ones of self actualization. However, that is not to say that creativity is not important like in childhood. The difficulties of the lower needs can be linked to the search for awareness though, in being incorporated in the quest for creative expression and in practicing some kinds of meditation. I don't always find it easy to meditate and a lot of people seem to find this, but I do find meditation and the associated quest for awareness more helpful in difficult times. This may be related to what some writers have spoken of as 'the dark night of the soul' being an important step in greater conscious awareness.
Jack!

Aside from the phenomena of the conscious mind discovering something completely novel by revelation (the creative scientist, artist, physicist, doctor, etc.), and thereby reaching higher levels of awareness about a thing, I do find it fascinating that with time and experience one can completely change their view about the same thing. Albeit some core things don't change, there are many that do.

And these things don't have any Darwinian survival value, they relate to quality of life (Qualia) kinds of things (inventions, medical science, music appreciation, etc.). In a similar way of quality-of-life stuff, consider in one's youth their perspective on relationships may be such that they are aggressive toward their peers or professional relations, yet when they become more seasoned in their craft, their perspective may change (one's own management style, philosophical and interpersonal views, and so on). And so one question there would be 'why did I perceive that thing that particular way when now I have the opposite view'(?). Or, say the phenomena of love is such that a person at one time was not concerned with those kinds of interpersonal things, then suddenly they change and become concerned more with those kinds of feelings... .

Those kinds of things seem to be relative to levels of awareness from a existential or humanistic point of view... .
When I read your reply it led me to think how I went through the rebellious stage after most people. I didn't drink alcohol until I was 25 and began smoking dope just after that. Even now, I am more rebellious than when I was about 16 and it was really after 3 friends had killed themselves that my rebellious stage started.

However, while some of this may be due to the quirkiness of my life it also relates to the issue whether consciousness is a linear process. I have been thinking about this after reading an article, 'Time and Causality' by Robert Solomon(in 'Nexus: The Alternative News Magazine' June- July 2022). The author argues that time is a an illusion, which is something which you have considered previously, and relates this to consciousness and the nature of causation. He begins with a quote from Einstein, 'There is something essential about the ""now" which is outside the realm of science.' I will try to offer a summary of the argument in the article

Solomon suggests that 'Time does not exist as an objective entity'. He supports this with quantum physics, especially the idea of quantum gravity speaking of the flow of instants suggesting that it appears that the narrative flow of events is a 'causally ordered sequence'.However, he disputes the nature of physical causation, suggesting that
' Physical events which are expected to be causally related always appear to be linked. But they are not. Like time, physical causality does not exist. It is merely an appearance_ a feature of the game we find ourselves playing'.

I am aware that what he is saying is open to dispute. It is based on the premise, 'It stands to reason that if time truly has no objective existence, all the myriad possible alternatives of all physical states that can possibly be experienced by consciousness in physical reality, must already exist- in a timeless, incipient state'. In other words, it is about framing everything from the perspective of eternity. Solomon sees this as being filtered down to human awareness.

I could write more, but I will pause to see what you think. I came across this article and have thought about developing it as a thread in its own right, although I do tend to start rather a lot. What I am thinking about in relation to your post is that the perspective of Solomon challenges the assumption of historical progress and of progression in the human lifecycle. In the instance of history it does seem that there were advanced early civilisations, such as Rome and Egypt. It also appears that some early thinkers, like Plato and Aristotle were more advanced than many people today. With individual lives, I wonder to what extent the older people are always wiser than children. However, I am sure that there may be weaknesses in the argument. So, I am interested to know what you think about linear progression of consciousness.
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JackDaydream
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: June 6th, 2022, 9:35 am It is a Kantonian burden to live up to a personal code based on Universal intuitive principles. There is complexity in the way the principles are received by the methods which in turn relay in “qualitative and quantitative variables” I see a division to demonstrate the collective as an effort to separate the utilitarian from this which is Universal. Hence the term moral realism. It is in Jung own words we might find the concept of the collective and separate this concept from that which is “too broadly a term and therefore too vague and nebulous” What is more, Jung discount suggestive ideas in his excursions of Kant’s philosophy to assert the empiricism of an existence of a psyche outside consciousness. It was Loyola’s description Jung paraphrased in:
“Recognized that man’s consciousness was created to the end that it may:
Recognized its descent from a higher unity.
Pay due and careful regard to this source.
Execute its commands intelligently and responsibly; and thereby afford the psyche as a whole the optimum degree of life and development.”
The separation of consciousness to just an element of the psyche implies a conscious recognition of any input from the limbic system. Inputs that are recognized by consciousness are psychic contents as well to those that are not. At a personal level, the feeling of rejection in a child may not have the corresponding conscious content since there is no knowledge and no dialectic construction. So, the feeling is felt by a method but, the incipient consciousness did not recognize it. This recognition is the basis of the understanding.
Jung did speak of the importance of Kant's metaphysics, especially in relation to the difficulty of knowing the transcendent reality which is beyond the scope of empirical knowledge. He also incorporated the idea of intuitive knowledge and the numinous. This was apparent in his answer in the televised interview with John Freeman. In this, in answer to the question of God he argued, ' I don't believe, I know.'

However, it is interesting to think what Jung would make of the limbic system because he definitely acknowledged the instinctual aspects. It does seem that he saw the Christian tradition's emphasis on perfection as one sided and not in accordance with the psyche's correspondence with wholeness. So, it seems likely that he would have seen emotions connected to the limbic system as relegated to the shadow in a negative and unhelpful way.
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

JackDaydream wrote: June 6th, 2022, 11:56 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: June 6th, 2022, 8:12 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 6th, 2022, 6:56 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: June 3rd, 2022, 2:18 pm

Hey Jack!

Lots of great responses here to this wonderful thread. I read through some but not all. A couple examples that quckly come to mind in bullet-point fashion:

'Levels' of awareness:

1. The physicist who discovers a new mathematical formula that captures time travel/relativity, black hole information/entropy, the laws of gravity, ad nauseum. (This more or less assumes mathematics itself is not completely a human invention, i.e., that it's 'out there' waiting to be discovered. .)
2. The musician who becomes aware of the 'chorus' part of a piece in order to express the feeling of tension and release and completes the composition.
3. The baby who develops their own levels of conscious awareness through memory and experience.
4. The adult who was made aware of a different way of Being.

I'd like to briefly parse the last one. One can easily reflect on their past and come away with revelations of: 'gee, why did I do that 20 years ago, I would have done that differently now'. This also assumes that the blank canvas of consciousness gets filled with information that seems useful in a mostly good or virtuous way (assuming the behavior is so-called 'better' now). In this case, we almost have an Aristotelian 'paradigm' of, with knowledge (and less ignorance) comes a higher level of awareness (good or bad)... " The high-minded man must care more for the truth than for what people think".

The evolution piece though is interesting. The questions for the extreme Darwinian, has ethics evolved? Has the feeling and desire for love, and the needs for connection and/or relationships with others evolved? Has the intrinsic human need for meaning, purpose and happiness evolved? If so, in what ways (?)

Mind you, that is not to be confused with having insatiable needs and/or living an ordinary life of striving (after one need is satisfied, another one takes its place-Maslow).

Just some quick thoughts...great thread!
Thanks for your reply and sorry it's taken me a couple of days, which was because I got caught up in thinking about another thread topic. I am glad that you like this topic and the slant of it is more of about the development of consciousness than others, and also the experience of consciousness.

One aspect which I wonder about is the parallel between the collective and individual aspects of consciousness. Of course, each person's development has unique features but it may be that the individual recapitulates processes which have been developed in the evolution of humanity. The idea of the individual as a blank state of consciousness, which is held by John Locke and Steven Pinker, is open to dispute, although it is unclear how the child's consciousness develops because it is so bound up with the development of language.

It is so easy to look back at things said and done in the past and query why? I even do that about my own responses in the last year or two. It may not be about major changes in consciousness necessarily but about how a particular situation looked while locked into though rather than merely a big change in one's consciousness. If anything, I feel that I have not changed that much in consciousness through life even though I have made lots of mistakes. Despite questioning so much my basic narrative identity seems consistent since childhood. I can remember my thinking processes back as far as starting school and a some memories before and feel that the essential 'I' has not changed. Perhaps, it will happen yet, with some grand enlightenment! I don't know if you feel that your consciousness has changed that much, or as you would like it to.

Maslow's ideas on conscious awareness are relevant. As far as I am aware the processes of meeting the various aspects of the hierarchy weave in and out of life. In some ways it felt easier to reach for the higher ones during childhood and adolescence when all the basic physical needs, and some social ones, were met whereas in adulthood having to find the basic ones, such as accommodation and money to survive distract from the ones of self actualization. However, that is not to say that creativity is not important like in childhood. The difficulties of the lower needs can be linked to the search for awareness though, in being incorporated in the quest for creative expression and in practicing some kinds of meditation. I don't always find it easy to meditate and a lot of people seem to find this, but I do find meditation and the associated quest for awareness more helpful in difficult times. This may be related to what some writers have spoken of as 'the dark night of the soul' being an important step in greater conscious awareness.
Jack!

Aside from the phenomena of the conscious mind discovering something completely novel by revelation (the creative scientist, artist, physicist, doctor, etc.), and thereby reaching higher levels of awareness about a thing, I do find it fascinating that with time and experience one can completely change their view about the same thing. Albeit some core things don't change, there are many that do.

And these things don't have any Darwinian survival value, they relate to quality of life (Qualia) kinds of things (inventions, medical science, music appreciation, etc.). In a similar way of quality-of-life stuff, consider in one's youth their perspective on relationships may be such that they are aggressive toward their peers or professional relations, yet when they become more seasoned in their craft, their perspective may change (one's own management style, philosophical and interpersonal views, and so on). And so one question there would be 'why did I perceive that thing that particular way when now I have the opposite view'(?). Or, say the phenomena of love is such that a person at one time was not concerned with those kinds of interpersonal things, then suddenly they change and become concerned more with those kinds of feelings... .

Those kinds of things seem to be relative to levels of awareness from a existential or humanistic point of view... .
When I read your reply it led me to think how I went through the rebellious stage after most people. I didn't drink alcohol until I was 25 and began smoking dope just after that. Even now, I am more rebellious than when I was about 16 and it was really after 3 friends had killed themselves that my rebellious stage started.

However, while some of this may be due to the quirkiness of my life it also relates to the issue whether consciousness is a linear process. I have been thinking about this after reading an article, 'Time and Causality' by Robert Solomon(in 'Nexus: The Alternative News Magazine' June- July 2022). The author argues that time is a an illusion, which is something which you have considered previously, and relates this to consciousness and the nature of causation. He begins with a quote from Einstein, 'There is something essential about the ""now" which is outside the realm of science.' I will try to offer a summary of the argument in the article

Solomon suggests that 'Time does not exist as an objective entity'. He supports this with quantum physics, especially the idea of quantum gravity speaking of the flow of instants suggesting that it appears that the narrative flow of events is a 'causally ordered sequence'.However, he disputes the nature of physical causation, suggesting that
' Physical events which are expected to be causally related always appear to be linked. But they are not. Like time, physical causality does not exist. It is merely an appearance_ a feature of the game we find ourselves playing'.

I am aware that what he is saying is open to dispute. It is based on the premise, 'It stands to reason that if time truly has no objective existence, all the myriad possible alternatives of all physical states that can possibly be experienced by consciousness in physical reality, must already exist- in a timeless, incipient state'. In other words, it is about framing everything from the perspective of eternity. Solomon sees this as being filtered down to human awareness.

I could write more, but I will pause to see what you think. I came across this article and have thought about developing it as a thread in its own right, although I do tend to start rather a lot. What I am thinking about in relation to your post is that the perspective of Solomon challenges the assumption of historical progress and of progression in the human lifecycle. In the instance of history it does seem that there were advanced early civilisations, such as Rome and Egypt. It also appears that some early thinkers, like Plato and Aristotle were more advanced than many people today. With individual lives, I wonder to what extent the older people are always wiser than children. However, I am sure that there may be weaknesses in the argument. So, I am interested to know what you think about linear progression of consciousness.
Jack!

Thank you, I think you should start another thread. One the one hand, you could start with the basics and draw the distinction between the physical and metaphysical elements of time (relative time-observer's position, time travel-speed of light time stops-eternity, phenomenal time-the perception of how time seems to go by fast when busy, present time-what slice of time is considered 'the now', etc.), then incorporate that into a pragmatic view of subjectivity. Meaning, if we cannot arrive at a logically objective reality or a universal theory of time/nature of time itself in a physical way that we can all agree on, what does that really mean or what implications does that have... .

In other words, as you so correctly concluded, there must be an objective reality beyond just the relative nature of time (illusion), which btw only includes/requires a conscious observer. Otherwise, we spiral into a type of metaphysical idealism (Berkley-subjective idealism/empirical idealism) where just consciousness exists, and find that existentially we are simply trapped in our own subjective sense of reality. Is that where you want to go with it...you know, the nature of reality and existence?

Or, are you thinking about destiny and time, and some purposeful order of time that is temporal to most of us, yet in theory, eternal in other aspects?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by The Beast »

The psychological functions are either rational or irrational. Thinking and feeling as described by Jung are rational functions. Post Jungian theoretical systems give two extra functions in each extravert or introvert ways of thinking known as the shadow functions residing mostly in the unconscious. Yet, it is not what was intended by Jung. IMO it is about the contents under conscious control. It is true that anamnesis can be numinous or somewhat subject to and the specialist previous existence (time question) but in this case, it is the rational inversion of the dominant function. It could take the form of a memory followed by the analysis of its content. In the case of the example feeling of rejection the trauma in the psyche is one proportional to the event and whether is accompanied by violence and other spectral events. This in turn may account for the shadow controlling the functions. So, it may be relevant to the way consciousness operates. In this case, it may be a subliminal difference due to the unknown/possible shadow content that could result in a positive or somewhat change in the thinking method.
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by JackDaydream »

3017Metaphysician wrote: June 6th, 2022, 1:24 pm
JackDaydream wrote: June 6th, 2022, 11:56 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: June 6th, 2022, 8:12 am
JackDaydream wrote: June 6th, 2022, 6:56 am

Thanks for your reply and sorry it's taken me a couple of days, which was because I got caught up in thinking about another thread topic. I am glad that you like this topic and the slant of it is more of about the development of consciousness than others, and also the experience of consciousness.

One aspect which I wonder about is the parallel between the collective and individual aspects of consciousness. Of course, each person's development has unique features but it may be that the individual recapitulates processes which have been developed in the evolution of humanity. The idea of the individual as a blank state of consciousness, which is held by John Locke and Steven Pinker, is open to dispute, although it is unclear how the child's consciousness develops because it is so bound up with the development of language.

It is so easy to look back at things said and done in the past and query why? I even do that about my own responses in the last year or two. It may not be about major changes in consciousness necessarily but about how a particular situation looked while locked into though rather than merely a big change in one's consciousness. If anything, I feel that I have not changed that much in consciousness through life even though I have made lots of mistakes. Despite questioning so much my basic narrative identity seems consistent since childhood. I can remember my thinking processes back as far as starting school and a some memories before and feel that the essential 'I' has not changed. Perhaps, it will happen yet, with some grand enlightenment! I don't know if you feel that your consciousness has changed that much, or as you would like it to.

Maslow's ideas on conscious awareness are relevant. As far as I am aware the processes of meeting the various aspects of the hierarchy weave in and out of life. In some ways it felt easier to reach for the higher ones during childhood and adolescence when all the basic physical needs, and some social ones, were met whereas in adulthood having to find the basic ones, such as accommodation and money to survive distract from the ones of self actualization. However, that is not to say that creativity is not important like in childhood. The difficulties of the lower needs can be linked to the search for awareness though, in being incorporated in the quest for creative expression and in practicing some kinds of meditation. I don't always find it easy to meditate and a lot of people seem to find this, but I do find meditation and the associated quest for awareness more helpful in difficult times. This may be related to what some writers have spoken of as 'the dark night of the soul' being an important step in greater conscious awareness.
Jack!

Aside from the phenomena of the conscious mind discovering something completely novel by revelation (the creative scientist, artist, physicist, doctor, etc.), and thereby reaching higher levels of awareness about a thing, I do find it fascinating that with time and experience one can completely change their view about the same thing. Albeit some core things don't change, there are many that do.

And these things don't have any Darwinian survival value, they relate to quality of life (Qualia) kinds of things (inventions, medical science, music appreciation, etc.). In a similar way of quality-of-life stuff, consider in one's youth their perspective on relationships may be such that they are aggressive toward their peers or professional relations, yet when they become more seasoned in their craft, their perspective may change (one's own management style, philosophical and interpersonal views, and so on). And so one question there would be 'why did I perceive that thing that particular way when now I have the opposite view'(?). Or, say the phenomena of love is such that a person at one time was not concerned with those kinds of interpersonal things, then suddenly they change and become concerned more with those kinds of feelings... .

Those kinds of things seem to be relative to levels of awareness from a existential or humanistic point of view... .
When I read your reply it led me to think how I went through the rebellious stage after most people. I didn't drink alcohol until I was 25 and began smoking dope just after that. Even now, I am more rebellious than when I was about 16 and it was really after 3 friends had killed themselves that my rebellious stage started.

However, while some of this may be due to the quirkiness of my life it also relates to the issue whether consciousness is a linear process. I have been thinking about this after reading an article, 'Time and Causality' by Robert Solomon(in 'Nexus: The Alternative News Magazine' June- July 2022). The author argues that time is a an illusion, which is something which you have considered previously, and relates this to consciousness and the nature of causation. He begins with a quote from Einstein, 'There is something essential about the ""now" which is outside the realm of science.' I will try to offer a summary of the argument in the article

Solomon suggests that 'Time does not exist as an objective entity'. He supports this with quantum physics, especially the idea of quantum gravity speaking of the flow of instants suggesting that it appears that the narrative flow of events is a 'causally ordered sequence'.However, he disputes the nature of physical causation, suggesting that
' Physical events which are expected to be causally related always appear to be linked. But they are not. Like time, physical causality does not exist. It is merely an appearance_ a feature of the game we find ourselves playing'.

I am aware that what he is saying is open to dispute. It is based on the premise, 'It stands to reason that if time truly has no objective existence, all the myriad possible alternatives of all physical states that can possibly be experienced by consciousness in physical reality, must already exist- in a timeless, incipient state'. In other words, it is about framing everything from the perspective of eternity. Solomon sees this as being filtered down to human awareness.

I could write more, but I will pause to see what you think. I came across this article and have thought about developing it as a thread in its own right, although I do tend to start rather a lot. What I am thinking about in relation to your post is that the perspective of Solomon challenges the assumption of historical progress and of progression in the human lifecycle. In the instance of history it does seem that there were advanced early civilisations, such as Rome and Egypt. It also appears that some early thinkers, like Plato and Aristotle were more advanced than many people today. With individual lives, I wonder to what extent the older people are always wiser than children. However, I am sure that there may be weaknesses in the argument. So, I am interested to know what you think about linear progression of consciousness.
Jack!

Thank you, I think you should start another thread. One the one hand, you could start with the basics and draw the distinction between the physical and metaphysical elements of time (relative time-observer's position, time travel-speed of light time stops-eternity, phenomenal time-the perception of how time seems to go by fast when busy, present time-what slice of time is considered 'the now', etc.), then incorporate that into a pragmatic view of subjectivity. Meaning, if we cannot arrive at a logically objective reality or a universal theory of time/nature of time itself in a physical way that we can all agree on, what does that really mean or what implications does that have... .

In other words, as you so correctly concluded, there must be an objective reality beyond just the relative nature of time (illusion), which btw only includes/requires a conscious observer. Otherwise, we spiral into a type of metaphysical idealism (Berkley-subjective idealism/empirical idealism) where just consciousness exists, and find that existentially we are simply trapped in our own subjective sense of reality. Is that where you want to go with it...you know, the nature of reality and existence?

Or, are you thinking about destiny and time, and some purposeful order of time that is temporal to most of us, yet in theory, eternal in other aspects?
I am just letting you know that I have opened a new thread based on the article which I discussed with you, if you are interested, and I most certainly welcome your views on the tricky connection between time, causality and consciousness...
Best wishes,
Jack
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by detail »

JackDaydream wrote: May 4th, 2022, 4:22 pm
detail wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:35 pm Evolution is something quite complex and a long lasting process of selection of a bio genepool . Which sorts out more than 99% of all genes in its process due to probability computatioins. One of the dominating factors of selection for large parts , the microbiological and immunologica factor, for long lasting times. Due epidemics (see for corona ) for example , the long lasting evolution is not generally dominated via the capability to think or even your sport cababilities. Intelligence plays in evolution just a role for communication acting intelligent as a group and general social organization. A long lasting evolution in terms of consciousness can be just partially been seen for humans in terms of social action ( see for the war in the ukraine).
It's partially doubtfull that mankind can evolve to a higher beeing, because the factor that favors intelligence , the social interaction is cancelled via epidemic and even warbehavious. In evolution less than 1 percent of all beeings procreate successfull, this is a pretty unsocial percentage.
It is not necessarily certain that no higher beings than human beings have lived in the distant past in some other galaxy or dimensions, or at some point in the future. As far as human evolution itself, even though there are so many troubles apparent in the world higher possibilities may be even occurring in some ways. Some see such possibilities in terms of inclusion of artificial intelligence.

However, it may be that it is not even about that but about human potential, especially as most people only use such a small amount of potential. Untapped potential, including the activation of what was thought to be 'junk DNA' may occur as a 'natural' evolutionary possibility for humans in future times if humans manage to survive in future centuries.
Well your assumption is , as far as i understood your word , that the nongravitational motion behaviour of the comet omouamua or borisov, can be interpretated as an alien spaceship. This is still not confirmed by public authorities. The problems that higer beeings, could interpretate mankind as something agressive (see the ukraine warfare) and anti-intellectual. If those would be ever willing to help us in a reasonable way seems somekind of strange. The problem with so called of junk DNA , that was somehow hidden in our genetics, should not only be activated if it seems usefull for everybody, this DNA could lack just social acceptance, which is the main cause, that is junk DNA, otherwise it wouldn't. Mankind always tends to act unsociable to high iq prodigrees and mostly loves to laugh about them. This is the cause that high-minded people tend to use their intellect in unscociable ways see for hacking and computer crimes. This tendency makes them then even more inaccepted. So this is a circulus virtuosis ( a devils circle).
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by JackDaydream »

detail wrote: June 30th, 2022, 1:53 pm
JackDaydream wrote: May 4th, 2022, 4:22 pm
detail wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:35 pm Evolution is something quite complex and a long lasting process of selection of a bio genepool . Which sorts out more than 99% of all genes in its process due to probability computatioins. One of the dominating factors of selection for large parts , the microbiological and immunologica factor, for long lasting times. Due epidemics (see for corona ) for example , the long lasting evolution is not generally dominated via the capability to think or even your sport cababilities. Intelligence plays in evolution just a role for communication acting intelligent as a group and general social organization. A long lasting evolution in terms of consciousness can be just partially been seen for humans in terms of social action ( see for the war in the ukraine).
It's partially doubtfull that mankind can evolve to a higher beeing, because the factor that favors intelligence , the social interaction is cancelled via epidemic and even warbehavious. In evolution less than 1 percent of all beeings procreate successfull, this is a pretty unsocial percentage.
It is not necessarily certain that no higher beings than human beings have lived in the distant past in some other galaxy or dimensions, or at some point in the future. As far as human evolution itself, even though there are so many troubles apparent in the world higher possibilities may be even occurring in some ways. Some see such possibilities in terms of inclusion of artificial intelligence.

However, it may be that it is not even about that but about human potential, especially as most people only use such a small amount of potential. Untapped potential, including the activation of what was thought to be 'junk DNA' may occur as a 'natural' evolutionary possibility for humans in future times if humans manage to survive in future centuries.
Well your assumption is , as far as i understood your word , that the nongravitational motion behaviour of the comet omouamua or borisov, can be interpretated as an alien spaceship. This is still not confirmed by public authorities. The problems that higer beeings, could interpretate mankind as something agressive (see the ukraine warfare) and anti-intellectual. If those would be ever willing to help us in a reasonable way seems somekind of strange. The problem with so called of junk DNA , that was somehow hidden in our genetics, should not only be activated if it seems usefull for everybody, this DNA could lack just social acceptance, which is the main cause, that is junk DNA, otherwise it wouldn't. Mankind always tends to act unsociable to high iq prodigrees and mostly loves to laugh about them. This is the cause that high-minded people tend to use their intellect in unscociable ways see for hacking and computer crimes. This tendency makes them then even more inaccepted. So this is a circulus virtuosis ( a devils circle).
It definitely seems that higher alien beings could look down on human beings as being destructive and flawed, because the dark side of human nature is evident in so many ways. It is hard to know to what extent 'junk DNA' does contain hidden aspects of human possibility or is a myth. There are even some practitioners who claim to be able to activate junk DNA, but whether there is any reality to this idea is questionable. However, DNA or not, the idea of developing consciousness in a greater way has been the idea behind loads of spiritual traditions and teachers. It is not straightforward and there have been many corrupt gurus, and even cults. However, while the ideals of enlightenment are open to all kinds of potential problem areas there is still the idea of development of higher possibilities, and this may not simply be about elitism and grandiosity. It may be about cultivation of depth and understanding, including compassion and becoming an example of the better side of human nature, as a main component of self-actualization.
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

detail wrote: June 30th, 2022, 1:53 pm
JackDaydream wrote: May 4th, 2022, 4:22 pm
detail wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:35 pm Evolution is something quite complex and a long lasting process of selection of a bio genepool . Which sorts out more than 99% of all genes in its process due to probability computatioins. One of the dominating factors of selection for large parts , the microbiological and immunologica factor, for long lasting times. Due epidemics (see for corona ) for example , the long lasting evolution is not generally dominated via the capability to think or even your sport cababilities. Intelligence plays in evolution just a role for communication acting intelligent as a group and general social organization. A long lasting evolution in terms of consciousness can be just partially been seen for humans in terms of social action ( see for the war in the ukraine).
It's partially doubtfull that mankind can evolve to a higher beeing, because the factor that favors intelligence , the social interaction is cancelled via epidemic and even warbehavious. In evolution less than 1 percent of all beeings procreate successfull, this is a pretty unsocial percentage.
It is not necessarily certain that no higher beings than human beings have lived in the distant past in some other galaxy or dimensions, or at some point in the future. As far as human evolution itself, even though there are so many troubles apparent in the world higher possibilities may be even occurring in some ways. Some see such possibilities in terms of inclusion of artificial intelligence.

However, it may be that it is not even about that but about human potential, especially as most people only use such a small amount of potential. Untapped potential, including the activation of what was thought to be 'junk DNA' may occur as a 'natural' evolutionary possibility for humans in future times if humans manage to survive in future centuries.
Well your assumption is , as far as i understood your word , that the nongravitational motion behaviour of the comet omouamua or borisov, can be interpretated as an alien spaceship. This is still not confirmed by public authorities. The problems that higer beeings, could interpretate mankind as something agressive (see the ukraine warfare) and anti-intellectual. If those would be ever willing to help us in a reasonable way seems somekind of strange. The problem with so called of junk DNA , that was somehow hidden in our genetics, should not only be activated if it seems usefull for everybody, this DNA could lack just social acceptance, which is the main cause, that is junk DNA, otherwise it wouldn't. Mankind always tends to act unsociable to high iq prodigrees and mostly loves to laugh about them. This is the cause that high-minded people tend to use their intellect in unscociable ways see for hacking and computer crimes. This tendency makes them then even more inaccepted. So this is a circulus virtuosis ( a devils circle).
It's just a detail, not central to your discussion here, but I think "junk DNA" refers to those parts of our DNA whose purpose is not yet understood. Perhaps some of it really is "junk", left over from some previous use a billion years ago, and no longer used. But some of it is just not-yet-understood.
news-medical.net wrote:In genetics, the term junk DNA refers to regions of DNA that are noncoding.

DNA contains instructions (coding) that are used to create proteins in the cell. However, the amount of DNA contained inside each cell is vast and not all of the genetic sequences present within a DNA molecule actually code for a protein.

Some of this noncoding DNA is used to produce non-coding RNA components such as transfer RNA, regulatory RNA and ribosomal RNA. However, other DNA regions are not transcribed into proteins, nor are they used to produce RNA molecules and their function is unknown.
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by JackDaydream »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 1st, 2022, 9:20 am
detail wrote: June 30th, 2022, 1:53 pm
JackDaydream wrote: May 4th, 2022, 4:22 pm
detail wrote: May 3rd, 2022, 3:35 pm Evolution is something quite complex and a long lasting process of selection of a bio genepool . Which sorts out more than 99% of all genes in its process due to probability computatioins. One of the dominating factors of selection for large parts , the microbiological and immunologica factor, for long lasting times. Due epidemics (see for corona ) for example , the long lasting evolution is not generally dominated via the capability to think or even your sport cababilities. Intelligence plays in evolution just a role for communication acting intelligent as a group and general social organization. A long lasting evolution in terms of consciousness can be just partially been seen for humans in terms of social action ( see for the war in the ukraine).
It's partially doubtfull that mankind can evolve to a higher beeing, because the factor that favors intelligence , the social interaction is cancelled via epidemic and even warbehavious. In evolution less than 1 percent of all beeings procreate successfull, this is a pretty unsocial percentage.
It is not necessarily certain that no higher beings than human beings have lived in the distant past in some other galaxy or dimensions, or at some point in the future. As far as human evolution itself, even though there are so many troubles apparent in the world higher possibilities may be even occurring in some ways. Some see such possibilities in terms of inclusion of artificial intelligence.

However, it may be that it is not even about that but about human potential, especially as most people only use such a small amount of potential. Untapped potential, including the activation of what was thought to be 'junk DNA' may occur as a 'natural' evolutionary possibility for humans in future times if humans manage to survive in future centuries.
Well your assumption is , as far as i understood your word , that the nongravitational motion behaviour of the comet omouamua or borisov, can be interpretated as an alien spaceship. This is still not confirmed by public authorities. The problems that higer beeings, could interpretate mankind as something agressive (see the ukraine warfare) and anti-intellectual. If those would be ever willing to help us in a reasonable way seems somekind of strange. The problem with so called of junk DNA , that was somehow hidden in our genetics, should not only be activated if it seems usefull for everybody, this DNA could lack just social acceptance, which is the main cause, that is junk DNA, otherwise it wouldn't. Mankind always tends to act unsociable to high iq prodigrees and mostly loves to laugh about them. This is the cause that high-minded people tend to use their intellect in unscociable ways see for hacking and computer crimes. This tendency makes them then even more inaccepted. So this is a circulus virtuosis ( a devils circle).
It's just a detail, not central to your discussion here, but I think "junk DNA" refers to those parts of our DNA whose purpose is not yet understood. Perhaps some of it really is "junk", left over from some previous use a billion years ago, and no longer used. But some of it is just not-yet-understood.
news-medical.net wrote:In genetics, the term junk DNA refers to regions of DNA that are noncoding.

DNA contains instructions (coding) that are used to create proteins in the cell. However, the amount of DNA contained inside each cell is vast and not all of the genetic sequences present within a DNA molecule actually code for a protein.

Some of this noncoding DNA is used to produce non-coding RNA components such as transfer RNA, regulatory RNA and ribosomal RNA. However, other DNA regions are not transcribed into proteins, nor are they used to produce RNA molecules and their function is unknown.
Junk DNA is a controversial area because it is understood so little. My own story which may sound ridiculous and send me into the zone of bring a complete psychonaut is that I had a DNA activation at a a mind, body and spirit festival..Shortly after this, my life seemed to spiral in strange directions, with mysterious eye problems, which when I researched them seemed to have connected with junk DNA...

However, I see it as an unknown area, to be looked upon with healthy scepticism. As it is, junk DNA is not understood at the present time. I wonder what possibilities it presents for understanding, especially unchartered aspects of mind and consciousness..I am really not sure how important it is..
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by Samana Johann »

JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2022, 6:19 pm The main basis for this question is based on the writings of the psychology and philosophy of Ken Wilber. His initial theory of individual cognitive development was derived on the ideas of stages, described by Freud, Piaget and Kohlberg in psychology. He also looks at the emphasis on higher states of awareness in some systems of spiritual thought, including Christianity and Buddhism. I am aware that some people may see putting these two aspects together as unhelpful.

However, in his later writings he sees the emphasis on hierarchies of awareness as problematic philosophically. It may involve values about the superiority of the higher states of awareness in evolution. This leads to the underlying issue about whether development of consciousness in evolution and in individual awareness is also about increase, progression or ascent.

Jung's model of the human mind and consciousness involved integration of the lower and higher aspects of the self. Of course, this is bound up with a belief in the unconscious as a source of potential consciousness.

I don't wish to make this topic too obscure or theoretical at this stage. Initially, I am asking whether you this aspect of consciousness as important philosophically. I have put it into the section on metaphysics and epistemology because it is primarily about models of consciousness, but I am aware that it is both connected to spiritual models and those of science in thinking about the nature of conscious awareness in evolution. Is human consciousness the ultimate expression of it or not? Does the idea of 'levels' of consciousness make sense? It may come down to the question: what is consciousness?
As for kinds of levels of consciousness, the 31 planes of existance may be of use. Consciousness means 'being aware', short knowing, and there are 6 kinds, by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind? And consciousnesses isn't, it does, arises, decays. This might be an heavy but en-lightening starter on the topic, good householder.
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by JackDaydream »

Samana Johann wrote: August 21st, 2022, 9:52 am
JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2022, 6:19 pm The main basis for this question is based on the writings of the psychology and philosophy of Ken Wilber. His initial theory of individual cognitive development was derived on the ideas of stages, described by Freud, Piaget and Kohlberg in psychology. He also looks at the emphasis on higher states of awareness in some systems of spiritual thought, including Christianity and Buddhism. I am aware that some people may see putting these two aspects together as unhelpful.

However, in his later writings he sees the emphasis on hierarchies of awareness as problematic philosophically. It may involve values about the superiority of the higher states of awareness in evolution. This leads to the underlying issue about whether development of consciousness in evolution and in individual awareness is also about increase, progression or ascent.

Jung's model of the human mind and consciousness involved integration of the lower and higher aspects of the self. Of course, this is bound up with a belief in the unconscious as a source of potential consciousness.

I don't wish to make this topic too obscure or theoretical at this stage. Initially, I am asking whether you this aspect of consciousness as important philosophically. I have put it into the section on metaphysics and epistemology because it is primarily about models of consciousness, but I am aware that it is both connected to spiritual models and those of science in thinking about the nature of conscious awareness in evolution. Is human consciousness the ultimate expression of it or not? Does the idea of 'levels' of consciousness make sense? It may come down to the question: what is consciousness?
As for kinds of levels of consciousness, the 31 planes of existance may be of use. Consciousness means 'being aware', short knowing, and there are 6 kinds, by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind? And consciousnesses isn't, it does, arises, decays. This might be an heavy but en-lightening starter on the topic, good householder.
I have just read your link and it is extremely interesting, as are some of the ideas you have added to some of my other thread discussions. Within philosophy as a whole there is often an emphasis on the need for proof, which is bound up with the verification of ideas, empirically and scientifically. This may mean that the experiential aspects of consciousness may become buried, and this is is unfortunate because the states of awareness are the raw material of understanding the evolution of consciousnes. One particular book which I have found to be extremely important is, ' Cosmic Consciousness, by Bucke, which looks at the development of consciousness, especially in relation to creative individuals, ranging from William Blake, the Buddha and so many other creative individuals. It may be about the development of the deepest levele of consciousness. This does come back to the issue of what is consciousness and where is it going? In this way, it is about the evolution of consciousness and it is possible that certain examples of human self-actualization, stand out as examples of which consciousness may develop as the highest examples of human potential.
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Re: The Experience and Evolution of Consciousness: What are 'Levels' of Awareness?

Post by Samana Johann »

JackDaydream wrote: August 21st, 2022, 7:08 pm
Samana Johann wrote: August 21st, 2022, 9:52 am
JackDaydream wrote: April 26th, 2022, 6:19 pm The main basis for this question is based on the writings of the psychology and philosophy of Ken Wilber. His initial theory of individual cognitive development was derived on the ideas of stages, described by Freud, Piaget and Kohlberg in psychology. He also looks at the emphasis on higher states of awareness in some systems of spiritual thought, including Christianity and Buddhism. I am aware that some people may see putting these two aspects together as unhelpful.

However, in his later writings he sees the emphasis on hierarchies of awareness as problematic philosophically. It may involve values about the superiority of the higher states of awareness in evolution. This leads to the underlying issue about whether development of consciousness in evolution and in individual awareness is also about increase, progression or ascent.

Jung's model of the human mind and consciousness involved integration of the lower and higher aspects of the self. Of course, this is bound up with a belief in the unconscious as a source of potential consciousness.

I don't wish to make this topic too obscure or theoretical at this stage. Initially, I am asking whether you this aspect of consciousness as important philosophically. I have put it into the section on metaphysics and epistemology because it is primarily about models of consciousness, but I am aware that it is both connected to spiritual models and those of science in thinking about the nature of conscious awareness in evolution. Is human consciousness the ultimate expression of it or not? Does the idea of 'levels' of consciousness make sense? It may come down to the question: what is consciousness?
As for kinds of levels of consciousness, the 31 planes of existance may be of use. Consciousness means 'being aware', short knowing, and there are 6 kinds, by eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind? And consciousnesses isn't, it does, arises, decays. This might be an heavy but en-lightening starter on the topic, good householder.
I have just read your link and it is extremely interesting, as are some of the ideas you have added to some of my other thread discussions. Within philosophy as a whole there is often an emphasis on the need for proof, which is bound up with the verification of ideas, empirically and scientifically. This may mean that the experiential aspects of consciousness may become buried, and this is is unfortunate because the states of awareness are the raw material of understanding the evolution of consciousnes. One particular book which I have found to be extremely important is, ' Cosmic Consciousness, by Bucke, which looks at the development of consciousness, especially in relation to creative individuals, ranging from William Blake, the Buddha and so many other creative individuals. It may be about the development of the deepest levele of consciousness. This does come back to the issue of what is consciousness and where is it going? In this way, it is about the evolution of consciousness and it is possible that certain examples of human self-actualization, stand out as examples of which consciousness may develop as the highest examples of human potential.
Again, it's good to listen to those knowing and seeing, independent, released, as others are just for a trade, good householder. The many kinds of views, and their causes, are count here in the The Brahmā Net.
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Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
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First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

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Predictably Irrational

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Artwords

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