Who am I?

[Belinda]

Is distraction the only happiness that I'm going to find in life. Is THAT who I am? Am I just a collection of my vices? Because I certainly don't find any pleasure in identifying myself with even one of my virtues.

Whitetrsoldier, apart from the question of personal identity*, you have pointed to the nature of happiness and more precisely, hopes. We don't so much hope for what by good fortune comes our way, but we do hope to achieve.Hope and life hopes seem to be bound up with achieving, because our self image* is connected to our intentions and plans.

*I don't think that personal identity is the same concept as self image.Personal identity is to do with how another rational person e.g. a police detective, or a lawyer, identifies us. Since memories and bodies change and decay what remains to identify a person is documents and DNA.

The song that you copied is an expression of existential angst. (See Sartre, or better, if you were once a Christian, Kierkegaard) . The trouble with engaging with modernity is that each individual has the resonsibility to make her own authentic reality. You seem already to have arrived at authenticity. There is no better beginning.

[Haller]

I don't know whitetrshsoldier, I don't know. I have no idea who I am. Although I think that in your vices there is a certain medative state, hence the 'zoned out' feeling. I guess this can be beneficial in some sense, despite what has previously been said about habit. As for me, perhaps it is my vice to actually think of those things which bring me pain, if you catch my meaning.

Edward J. Bartek

Haller:

You should try to contradict each truth I propose, by logic, fact or inconsistency, not propose an irrelevant fact, and say it contradicts all I say. Your answer to the opposite of matter was anti-matter. What does that have to do with the ultimate creation of matter. How do you deny E=MC2 that says matter is created from its opposite of energy? Was Einstein wrong? How do you logically deny my truth that energy is an unknown degree of the spiritual, an opposite from which was created matter? Reread my previous comment again. Can you logically deny each sentence? You didn't before. You may discover some new truths if you do this.

First of all, energy is not the opposite of matter. It IS matter according to relativity physics and the equation which you so consistently point out. The Mass and Energy equivalence or E=MC^2 is not by any means the answer to the all of the universe no more than Schrodinger's equation is, or for that matter than 2+2=4 does. I do not have to logically deny what is already illogical.



Felix,

Finding? Is that not already the point of this post? Creating? I did not ask to be born, so why am I here?
Why should I make the best of a world which is totally malignant? Of every 'good' thing in this world, in this life, worth living for there is at least one (in some cases more than that) that is contradictory and degrading. I can not make the best of a world that is not only torn but tearing me apart as well.

DeMeriden,

Perhaps your views are right, as they are backed up by both mant person's experience and science to an extent, and perhaps they are not. Although meditation and the denial of the self and other such things are good ideals... This is easier said than done as I still have drives that are by no means purposeless. If these drives have purpose, then (although they should probably be controlled) why deny them? Is our ultimate purpose to deny ourselves? This makes no sense.

[Belinda]

Why should I make the best of a world which is totally malignant?

what about ;'for the same reason that the zebra runs away from the lioness', or 'for the same reason that the lioness uses up her energy to kill the zebra'?

Humans are not good at running, but they are good at making sense of the world.

[kennethamy]

who am I? what is the self? What is the mind? Is it not ironic that it is the mind thinking of the mind? The mind that does not know its own self? My mind is sitting here thinking, "how do I work?" Yet it is working and somewhere deep down there it has to know how to work or it wouldn't. The mind thinking of the mind thinking of the mind now... How strange.

A different take:

This question commits the fallacy of asking about nothing in particular.
It is as unanswerable as the question, "What is it to eat mashed potatoes?".
The only reply to both questions is, "what are you asking? Be more specific".

[DeMeriden]

Although meditation and the denial of the self and other such things are good ideals... This is easier said than done as I still have drives that are by no means purposeless.

While I do speak of meditation and contemplation .. I do so not so much as in the traditional spiritual or religious traditions as they are today. At least not in the way of a rigorous systematic discipline which tries to trains us.

Since I do not know you .. I have no clues as to where to zero in on your own particular obstructions.

Do me a favor ... we are anonymous in here .. so now look into my eyes follow this pendulum as I swing it before you .. and listen to my voice ... within the next three days you will wake from sleep and notice that you had a dream. I want you to write that dream down in detail .. and give it to me. Within that dream I will be able to read its archetypes .. and this will help me zero in for what would be good for your own particular personality. You can send it to me by PM if you wish to keep it private. On the other hand if you already have a significant dream of late .. that would be good also. Now .. when I snap my fingers .. you will awake refreshed. (snap!)

Your subconscious mind will probably respond to that invitation because it also wants the obstacles removed. If you are truly unhappy .. your subconscious mind has already been trying to tell you what the problem is .. it has already sent you symbolic messages .. but you have not known how to read them or have ignored them or misinterpreted them. Your subconscious mind is not able to resolve the impasse without your conscious cooperation and so it will pressure the hell out of you until it gets your cooperation.

I will read the archetypes for you.

Are you game?

-DeMeriden

[Felix]

Haller, I sense that your angst is genuine, but your pain can be the stimulus that drives you to free yourself from worldly constraints. However, it demands a journey of self discovery, and you are the only one who knows (or at least can know) yourself well enough to take that trip. There are no easy answers to your question... well actually there are but they are lies.

"Why should I make the best of a world which is totally malignant? Of every 'good' thing in this world, in this life, worth living for there is at least one (in some cases more than that) that is contradictory and degrading. I can not make the best of a world that is not only torn but tearing me apart as well."

This conclusion is, I presume, based mostly on your experience, which obviously hasn't been all that great(?) "Totally malignant" is a pretty extreme value judgement by anyone's standards.

Will you admit that there are people who are happy in this world, and not all of them are idiots? - i.e., only happy because they are deluded fools?

So then, what do these happy non-deluded fools have in common? I think that would be a good question for you to consider, because rather than "who am I" I think you may be asking "who can I be that I'll be happy being". You hinted at this when you said, "as I still have drives that are by no means purposeless." Those drives are the clues that will help you answer your question.

[DeMeriden]

Haller, I sense that your angst is genuine,

Good advise Felix. Action is needed. A modern proverb might be "Do something .. even if it is wrong." .. whatever turns out to be wrong can be corrected. That is how the path is found.

-DeMeriden

[DeMeriden]

I am not my body
I am not my thoughts
I am not my emotions
I am not my fears
I am not my perceptions
I am not my psychological mind

These things belong to me. I can pick them up, I can lay them down.

I am not what others think of me
I am not what I think of myself

The psychological mind can only work with what has been limited through duality. The duality of thoughts and reasonings. The mind knows nothing further nor greater.

What I am can not be found in that duality.

The body can only work with what has been divided and limited into multiplicity .. objects of taste, touch, sight. The body knows nothing further or greater.

What I am can not be found in that multiplicity.

When all else has been negated,
I remain.
The empirical experience that .. I am.
My rest is in the existential experience of .. I am.

I can not know what I am, I can only be what I am. I am in the act of my existence. I am that act. I am that.

All else can be taken from me.
What can be taken from me is not me.
Always .. what remains is I am that act of existing.

Peace to you Haller.
-DeMeriden

[Martin Ekdahl]

"I was not; I have been; I am not; I do not mind."

Written on many Epicurean gravestones in Greece and the Roman empire. Also used at humanist funerals today.

[Belinda]

Nice one Martin. Thanks.

[DeMeriden]

but I feel like the question wasn't really answered by the last post, even though nobody could possibly offer a more thorough or accurate answer.

* Be advised that in this post .. when I use the word 'you' it does not represent whitetrshsoilier personally - but rather anyone and perhaps everyone. *


The question, no matter if posed as "Who am I?" or "Why am I here?" or "What is the meaning of life?" can not be answered by anything of either the body nor psychological mind. At least not answered in the way the questioner would like it answered.

It goes round and round .. if one has nothing (no real experience) to pin the word 'Person' to. No existential experience of himself .. this answer will mean nothing to him.

I can ask "What is the sun?" but if I have never experienced the sun and grew up by candlelight - than no matter how detailed a description you might give me - I would still not really know what the sun was until I stood out in it and experienced it.

In my post of the relationships between {Person / Psyche / Soma} I thought I made it pretty clear that the essential "I" is called in philosophy {Person} which is an act and not an object.

Person is the origin and source of all consciousness and perceptions .. and as the source and origin of all our faculties of perception .. these faculties can not be turned upon their source.

So I can answer "You are person" and you are an act of existing .. and you can feel that this answer is empty .. but the emptiness of it is not in the word .. it is in you. The word Person points to an empty place in you .. a place in you filled with ideas of your mind and your body.

If that is true .. the next question is "How do I find who I am?" ... and what you need is to experience who you are .. so that the word Person is not empty to you.

I mentioned meditation .. but I did not realize when I did that .. that there would come to mind a popular image of meditation as something that takes long training and self denial, and is very difficult. Monks in robes flagellating themselves and fasting. This is not the type of meditation I had in mind.

I drew this picture.

Person <--- Psyche <--- Soma

which is pretty simple to say .. that one must turn his looking inward. One must turn consciousness inward. And didn't we already know that by instinct we look inside.

If I lost my wallet ... where would I look for it? Would I look for it in places where I knew it was not?? Than why look for who you are .. in body or psychological mind?? You are not there.

When you look for your lost wallet .. you automatically rule out where you know it is not. And you look in places where you had it last.

And how would you look for it?

You would look, and look, and look, and look .. until you found it.

THAT is meditation.

It is looking in the most likely place .. with attention and awareness .. until you find what you are looking for.

It might takes weeks, it might takes months, it might take years (for most people it takes about 6 to 8 months) because of how habitual we are to looking in the wrong places (psychological mind and body). Once that habit is broken .. self .. is there. Once you remove the obstructions to it .. what was always there becomes known to you again.

So the last question would be .. just how important is knowing who you are .. to you?

-DeMeriden

[Felix]

Below is a link to an interesting article by an involuntary mystic (he was a skeptical scientist and then a near death experience permanently altered his perspective). Based on his own experience, he concludes that what we consider to be the normal psychological perspective is essentially a pathological product of social conditioning:
http://www.selfdiscoveryportal.com/arUnblocking.htm

DeMeriden, You're talking about "being aware that one is a portal of awareness", yes?

[whitetrshsoldier]

Alright, I guess this'll be more for Haller than anybody else.

I don't mean to hurt anybody's feelings, or anything, and I'm very prepared to be blasted for openly admitting I'm completely dumbfounded and lost by the direction of the conversation as it stands now.

The truth is, though, I'm still getting absolutely nothing from this post. Spirituality is a joke to me; so I'm going to list specific, hopefully more practical questions I have that might help dumb it down a bit to a level that might speak to me more.

Thanks ahead of time to anyone who can tolerate my inability to participate at the actualized level of everybody else, and I apologize if I'm interupting anything ...

[whitetrshsoldier]

Stolen from the song I posted earlier ....

1. "Lying idle in my room, telling my thoughts to the moon: Why do I always feel so unimportant?"

Why do we feel unimportant? Why do we feel guilt/shame in excess? Why do we need/want to feel important?

2. To other egos my mind clings, still inside these voices ring. That I'm just a carbon copy of everyone else.

Why do we fear being clones/CCs of others? Why do we desire individuality? Do we really? Is this true if we often try to mimic others, such as celebrities?

3. "And now I'm searching out my own identity."

Why do we search for answers about our identity?

4. "I wait for answers from the sky, the only audience I find. But no comfort finds my ears just silent mocking. I know I was created but I just can't figure out why"

Why do we expect these questions to have answers? Why do we expect to have purpose in life? Do we? Why do we assume that, IF we do find a purpose in life, it will be comforting?

5. "Who is this guy that I am and for his life what does he have to show? Who am I? What am I for?"

What have we to show for our lives? Should we have to prove ourselves? Is that what creates identity? I'd argue it identifies a person more than any of this other spiritual garbage we've been talking about.

6. "Still searching. Who am I?
Some answers I don't ever find
I just want to know I have a plan
Come from and return to dust,
but I don't want to feel that useless
I want to see something in me that is unique.
I just want to know. Who am I?
What am I for?"

Am I more important, in any way, shape, or form, than anybody, anywhere in this world? Why should I care if I am? I know that I come from nothing, and will return there one day; that all I do on this planet will ultimately result in nothing, but I still want to accomplish EVERYTHING. WHY do I possess this drive? Why is this drive so pervasive, even to the point of making me want to attain the identity of one who impacts the world, without necessarily making the difference?

Why do I want to be unique, and find my identity, and endure this struggle (or "enjoy the ride" as you optimists put it) when I'm just going to 'return to dust' in the end!

It's not just a question of "Who am I?", but really of WHY AM I! What kind of sick process would force me to live this life; to struggle at every point, to want to know everything, to want to do everything, TO HAVE TO ASK WHO I AM ... AND TO HAVE TO PONDER WHY I WOULD WASTE MY TIME ASKING THAT QUESTION WHEN I KNOW THAT I WILL END UP DEAD SOON ANYWAYS, SO ASKING IT IS JUST A WASTE OF TIME!!!

Evolution or deity, this is a freaking mess, and I just didn't feel that these particular questions were being answered in the conversation before.

- Quotes From
Craig's Brother
"Who Am I?"

[DeMeriden]

spiritual garbage

Can I ask .. it seems to me that you are not the only one on this forum who has a strong dislike for spirituality and anything religious. Can I ask .. why?

(looking for the short answer )

Philosophy and spirituality have often been indistinguishable form each other .. entwined like vines .. so what attracts you to it?

-DeMeriden