Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

[SteveKlinko]

I have always assumed that all normally functioning Human Minds would have at least similar kinds of Conscious Experiences. I have thought this for decades. But after many years of discussions about this with people on various Forums, it has finally become clear to me that some people actually must not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I limit this observation to things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste and so on. The Experience of Colors and especially the Experience of Redness has been a major target for my discussions with people on the various Philosophy of Mind and Consciousness Forums. There are people that flat out deny the Existence of the Experience of Redness. I think they give it their best shot at understanding it but they always fall back to just dismissing the Experience of something like Redness as pure Fantasy, Superstition, Magic, and Illusion. I have become convinced that their denials of Conscious Experience, their very words, show that they truly and simply do not perceive Redness as a kind of Experience. There is no Redness Experience. They are not Color blind so they can Detect Red in their Visual Field in some way but it seems to be more at the level of the Neural Activity. They can somehow sense that their Neurons are Firing for Red and indicate that there is Red in their Field of View but there seems to be no Experience of Redness in their Field of View. They deny any such extra Consciousness Phenomenon is happening. It almost seems like they must have some sort of Color Blindsight from birth.

I used to think they were just messing with me, and I was hoping that after all these years that they would get tired of continuing their Fraud. But I have come to realize they are not messing with me, they truly do not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. In fact, they say that Qualia was invented by Idiot Philosophers. They (People on the Forums) are very often nasty and arrogant like that and I wonder if that is a symptom of their lack of Qualia. It is interesting that their lack of Qualia would make them living examples of the P-Zombies from Philosophy. One thing I can say is that if they really never have had an Experience of something like Redness then I can completely understand how they would think it was something Magical and Illusory. These people simply deny the Existence of Qualia and are completely stymied by talk of Qualia, which naturally results in their complete inability to understand the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience.

I have been astounded by the possibility that some people (mostly the Physicalists and the people that promote the Higher Order Theories of Consciousness) actually might not Experience the Color Qualia. It is a mystery to me what their Inner Experience of Color could be like. I have always tried to use the Experience of Redness as a discussion point for talking about Conscious Experiences. These people literally will say that there is no such thing as Redness and they always try to compare descriptions of Experiences of Redness to Religious Experiences. I have tried for a long time to get them to describe what the Experience of Redness means to them. After receiving mostly insults, one of them gave me a description of what the Experience of Redness was from their own point of view. He dismissively said that his Experience was the same as everybody else. He described the multitude of Emotions and Memories that were Experienced while Seeing Red. He went on to describe particular Emotions and Memories. I noticed that there was no recognition of the Experience of the Redness itself, but rather it seemed like his Experience of Redness wholly consisted of Associations to other things. This seemed a little odd, but telling. So I then asked him to strip away all the Emotions, Memories, and other Associations from his Experience of Redness and tell me if there was anything still remaining in the Experience. Here is his reply: "How the {!#%@} would I know? It isn't possible for me to 'strip out all the Emotions, Memories, and any other Associations'. Further, I don't believe for a moment that you can either, Steve. This is navel-gazing, pure and simple." This person obviously does not Experience the Redness, but rather Experiences all these other things in place of the Redness Experience. He literally can not figure out what I am talking about. Notice the reference to Navel-Gazing. He still thinks that the Redness is a Religious Experience.

After some further conversations I now understand what an Experience of Redness is for these Physicalists. When they think about Experiencing Redness they always branch off into talking about Emotions and Memories. For them, it appears that the actual Experience of Redness is an Experience of Emotions and an Experience of Memories. That is the Experience for them and there is nothing else for them to report. This is of course why they hate the word Qualia, because it does indeed imply that there is something else happening with the Experience of Redness. I can fully see how they would think that the concept of Qualia is Redundant to their Experience. I can fully now understand why they would think that Qualia and the Experience of Redness are different things. For the Physicalists the Experience of Redness is not what I expected. It is something different than my Experience of Redness. I Experience Redness as a Quale and they Experience Redness as associated Emotions and Memories. In fact I can say I really don't even Experience Redness as Emotions and Memories at all. I just simply Experience Redness as a Thing In Itself.

Another discussion thread I have participated in where the people denied the Existence of Qualia was one where the people were convinced that we cannot see a Color until we have a Word for the Color. This seems like a very strange thing to believe. I tried in vain to convince them that the Word for the Color does not make the Color real but that the direct Experience of the Color is real. They could not understand what I was talking about. This can only make sense if you consider that they might never have Experienced a Color Quale. They instead receive some kind of Signals from their Neurons that give them some type of Indications about the different Colors, but without any actual Conscious Experience of the Colors. I can see how the Words might be of prime importance to them.

But yet another example of People that probably have no Conscious Experiences or Qualia are the people that don't understand the difference between a Computer detecting Red and a Human detecting Red. They probably also just Detect Red in some way but have never had an actual Experience of Redness.

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.

[JackDaydream]

I have always assumed that all normally functioning Human Minds would have at least similar kinds of Conscious Experiences. I have thought this for decades. But after many years of discussions about this with people on various Forums, it has finally become clear to me that some people actually must not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I limit this observation to things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste and so on. The Experience of Colors and especially the Experience of Redness has been a major target for my discussions with people on the various Philosophy of Mind and Consciousness Forums. There are people that flat out deny the Existence of the Experience of Redness. I think they give it their best shot at understanding it but they always fall back to just dismissing the Experience of something like Redness as pure Fantasy, Superstition, Magic, and Illusion. I have become convinced that their denials of Conscious Experience, their very words, show that they truly and simply do not perceive Redness as a kind of Experience. There is no Redness Experience. They are not Color blind so they can Detect Red in their Visual Field in some way but it seems to be more at the level of the Neural Activity. They can somehow sense that their Neurons are Firing for Red and indicate that there is Red in their Field of View but there seems to be no Experience of Redness in their Field of View. They deny any such extra Consciousness Phenomenon is happening. It almost seems like they must have some sort of Color Blindsight from birth.

I used to think they were just messing with me, and I was hoping that after all these years that they would get tired of continuing their Fraud. But I have come to realize they are not messing with me, they truly do not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. In fact, they say that Qualia was invented by Idiot Philosophers. They (People on the Forums) are very often nasty and arrogant like that and I wonder if that is a symptom of their lack of Qualia. It is interesting that their lack of Qualia would make them living examples of the P-Zombies from Philosophy. One thing I can say is that if they really never have had an Experience of something like Redness then I can completely understand how they would think it was something Magical and Illusory. These people simply deny the Existence of Qualia and are completely stymied by talk of Qualia, which naturally results in their complete inability to understand the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience.

I have been astounded by the possibility that some people (mostly the Physicalists and the people that promote the Higher Order Theories of Consciousness) actually might not Experience the Color Qualia. It is a mystery to me what their Inner Experience of Color could be like. I have always tried to use the Experience of Redness as a discussion point for talking about Conscious Experiences. These people literally will say that there is no such thing as Redness and they always try to compare descriptions of Experiences of Redness to Religious Experiences. I have tried for a long time to get them to describe what the Experience of Redness means to them. After receiving mostly insults, one of them gave me a description of what the Experience of Redness was from their own point of view. He dismissively said that his Experience was the same as everybody else. He described the multitude of Emotions and Memories that were Experienced while Seeing Red. He went on to describe particular Emotions and Memories. I noticed that there was no recognition of the Experience of the Redness itself, but rather it seemed like his Experience of Redness wholly consisted of Associations to other things. This seemed a little odd, but telling. So I then asked him to strip away all the Emotions, Memories, and other Associations from his Experience of Redness and tell me if there was anything still remaining in the Experience. Here is his reply: "How the {!#%@} would I know? It isn't possible for me to 'strip out all the Emotions, Memories, and any other Associations'. Further, I don't believe for a moment that you can either, Steve. This is navel-gazing, pure and simple." This person obviously does not Experience the Redness, but rather Experiences all these other things in place of the Redness Experience. He literally can not figure out what I am talking about. Notice the reference to Navel-Gazing. He still thinks that the Redness is a Religious Experience.

After some further conversations I now understand what an Experience of Redness is for these Physicalists. When they think about Experiencing Redness they always branch off into talking about Emotions and Memories. For them, it appears that the actual Experience of Redness is an Experience of Emotions and an Experience of Memories. That is the Experience for them and there is nothing else for them to report. This is of course why they hate the word Qualia, because it does indeed imply that there is something else happening with the Experience of Redness. I can fully see how they would think that the concept of Qualia is Redundant to their Experience. I can fully now understand why they would think that Qualia and the Experience of Redness are different things. For the Physicalists the Experience of Redness is not what I expected. It is something different than my Experience of Redness. I Experience Redness as a Quale and they Experience Redness as associated Emotions and Memories. In fact I can say I really don't even Experience Redness as Emotions and Memories at all. I just simply Experience Redness as a Thing In Itself.

Another discussion thread I have participated in where the people denied the Existence of Qualia was one where the people were convinced that we cannot see a Color until we have a Word for the Color. This seems like a very strange thing to believe. I tried in vain to convince them that the Word for the Color does not make the Color real but that the direct Experience of the Color is real. They could not understand what I was talking about. This can only make sense if you consider that they might never have Experienced a Color Quale. They instead receive some kind of Signals from their Neurons that give them some type of Indications about the different Colors, but without any actual Conscious Experience of the Colors. I can see how the Words might be of prime importance to them.

But yet another example of People that probably have no Conscious Experiences or Qualia are the people that don't understand the difference between a Computer detecting Red and a Human detecting Red. They probably also just Detect Red in some way but have never had an actual Experience of Redness.

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.

Is there any evidence to suggest that some people have a lack of qualia? I know that you speak of people not being able to describe redness to you but it is visual more than anything else. It might be more helpful to ask them to identify the colour in visual form. Do you think that you may be trying more to get them to understand the concept of qualia, which can be a bit of a tangent. On the basis of what you have written it seems unfair to refer to the people as not having conscious awareness simply because they don't use the same framework for thinking about qualia as yourself.

[Consul]

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.

In living people a total absence of subjective experience occurs only during a dreamless sleep, a syncope (faint), a coma, and general anesthesia.

[Consul]

Is there any evidence to suggest that some people have a lack of qualia? I know that you speak of people not being able to describe redness to you but it is visual more than anything else. It might be more helpful to ask them to identify the colour in visual form.

There is a pathological condition (afflicting nonblind people) called color agnosia, but even those suffering from it still have color-impressions.

[JackDaydream]

Is there any evidence to suggest that some people have a lack of qualia? I know that you speak of people not being able to describe redness to you but it is visual more than anything else. It might be more helpful to ask them to identify the colour in visual form.

There is a pathological condition (afflicting nonblind people) called color agnosia, but even those suffering from it still have color-impressions.

I don't think that the outpost was referring to colour agnosia at all, but the lack of ability to talk about the experience of colours.

[SteveKlinko]

I have always assumed that all normally functioning Human Minds would have at least similar kinds of Conscious Experiences. I have thought this for decades. But after many years of discussions about this with people on various Forums, it has finally become clear to me that some people actually must not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I limit this observation to things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste and so on. The Experience of Colors and especially the Experience of Redness has been a major target for my discussions with people on the various Philosophy of Mind and Consciousness Forums. There are people that flat out deny the Existence of the Experience of Redness. I think they give it their best shot at understanding it but they always fall back to just dismissing the Experience of something like Redness as pure Fantasy, Superstition, Magic, and Illusion. I have become convinced that their denials of Conscious Experience, their very words, show that they truly and simply do not perceive Redness as a kind of Experience. There is no Redness Experience. They are not Color blind so they can Detect Red in their Visual Field in some way but it seems to be more at the level of the Neural Activity. They can somehow sense that their Neurons are Firing for Red and indicate that there is Red in their Field of View but there seems to be no Experience of Redness in their Field of View. They deny any such extra Consciousness Phenomenon is happening. It almost seems like they must have some sort of Color Blindsight from birth.

I used to think they were just messing with me, and I was hoping that after all these years that they would get tired of continuing their Fraud. But I have come to realize they are not messing with me, they truly do not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. In fact, they say that Qualia was invented by Idiot Philosophers. They (People on the Forums) are very often nasty and arrogant like that and I wonder if that is a symptom of their lack of Qualia. It is interesting that their lack of Qualia would make them living examples of the P-Zombies from Philosophy. One thing I can say is that if they really never have had an Experience of something like Redness then I can completely understand how they would think it was something Magical and Illusory. These people simply deny the Existence of Qualia and are completely stymied by talk of Qualia, which naturally results in their complete inability to understand the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience.

I have been astounded by the possibility that some people (mostly the Physicalists and the people that promote the Higher Order Theories of Consciousness) actually might not Experience the Color Qualia. It is a mystery to me what their Inner Experience of Color could be like. I have always tried to use the Experience of Redness as a discussion point for talking about Conscious Experiences. These people literally will say that there is no such thing as Redness and they always try to compare descriptions of Experiences of Redness to Religious Experiences. I have tried for a long time to get them to describe what the Experience of Redness means to them. After receiving mostly insults, one of them gave me a description of what the Experience of Redness was from their own point of view. He dismissively said that his Experience was the same as everybody else. He described the multitude of Emotions and Memories that were Experienced while Seeing Red. He went on to describe particular Emotions and Memories. I noticed that there was no recognition of the Experience of the Redness itself, but rather it seemed like his Experience of Redness wholly consisted of Associations to other things. This seemed a little odd, but telling. So I then asked him to strip away all the Emotions, Memories, and other Associations from his Experience of Redness and tell me if there was anything still remaining in the Experience. Here is his reply: "How the {!#%@} would I know? It isn't possible for me to 'strip out all the Emotions, Memories, and any other Associations'. Further, I don't believe for a moment that you can either, Steve. This is navel-gazing, pure and simple." This person obviously does not Experience the Redness, but rather Experiences all these other things in place of the Redness Experience. He literally can not figure out what I am talking about. Notice the reference to Navel-Gazing. He still thinks that the Redness is a Religious Experience.

After some further conversations I now understand what an Experience of Redness is for these Physicalists. When they think about Experiencing Redness they always branch off into talking about Emotions and Memories. For them, it appears that the actual Experience of Redness is an Experience of Emotions and an Experience of Memories. That is the Experience for them and there is nothing else for them to report. This is of course why they hate the word Qualia, because it does indeed imply that there is something else happening with the Experience of Redness. I can fully see how they would think that the concept of Qualia is Redundant to their Experience. I can fully now understand why they would think that Qualia and the Experience of Redness are different things. For the Physicalists the Experience of Redness is not what I expected. It is something different than my Experience of Redness. I Experience Redness as a Quale and they Experience Redness as associated Emotions and Memories. In fact I can say I really don't even Experience Redness as Emotions and Memories at all. I just simply Experience Redness as a Thing In Itself.

Another discussion thread I have participated in where the people denied the Existence of Qualia was one where the people were convinced that we cannot see a Color until we have a Word for the Color. This seems like a very strange thing to believe. I tried in vain to convince them that the Word for the Color does not make the Color real but that the direct Experience of the Color is real. They could not understand what I was talking about. This can only make sense if you consider that they might never have Experienced a Color Quale. They instead receive some kind of Signals from their Neurons that give them some type of Indications about the different Colors, but without any actual Conscious Experience of the Colors. I can see how the Words might be of prime importance to them.

But yet another example of People that probably have no Conscious Experiences or Qualia are the people that don't understand the difference between a Computer detecting Red and a Human detecting Red. They probably also just Detect Red in some way but have never had an actual Experience of Redness.

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.

Is there any evidence to suggest that some people have a lack of qualia? I know that you speak of people not being able to describe redness to you but it is visual more than anything else. It might be more helpful to ask them to identify the colour in visual form. Do you think that you may be trying more to get them to understand the concept of qualia, which can be a bit of a tangent. On the basis of what you have written it seems unfair to refer to the people as not having conscious awareness simply because they don't use the same framework for thinking about qualia as yourself.

Just the fact that many people will talk about Emotions and Memories when describing their Experience of Color. They seem only to have Emotions and Memories. They seem to have no direct Experience of the Qualia of Color. They will often say you cannot even Experience Color before you have a certain amount of Associations built up over time. Why would some people think there is a problem with Experiencing Redness before you know the Word Red? This is very very odd to me, and was a complete mystery until I realized that they might not actually be Experiencing the Redness Quale but something quite different. For all I know, half the population on the Planet might See like that. I might even be in the minority of being a Qualia perceiver. I think if you Experience Qualia you know it. If you are unable to absolutely and immediately understand the concept of Qualia then I think it is possible that you don't have Qualia. All these people that are so eager and willing to say Qualia are an Illusion cannot really have the Qualia that I know.

My Experience of something like Redness has literally no associations with Emotions and Memories, but rather I directly Experience the Quale of Redness as a thing in itself that appears in my Visual Experience. The question is: Why should we expect everybody to have the same Visual Experience that you do or that I do. That might be a big mistake and will only be resolved when Science can measure Conscious Experience directly. Other people's Visual Experience might be totally Alien if it could be measured. But then my Visual Experience would be Alien to them.

[SteveKlinko]

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.

In living people a total absence of subjective experience occurs only during a dreamless sleep, a syncope (faint), a coma, and general anesthesia.

Science has no real Clue what goes on with Consciousness during Dreamless Sleep, Fainting, Coma, or Anesthesia. Science cannot Directly Measure Consciousness. Depending on Correlations with Neural Activity is not really very Scientific when you consider that even Science has to say they have no idea what Consciousness is. How can Science be so sure about Correlations to something they have no Clue about? This is pure Belief and Hope, not Science.

[JackDaydream]

I have always assumed that all normally functioning Human Minds would have at least similar kinds of Conscious Experiences. I have thought this for decades. But after many years of discussions about this with people on various Forums, it has finally become clear to me that some people actually must not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I limit this observation to things like the Experience of Redness, the Standard A Tone, the Salty Taste and so on. The Experience of Colors and especially the Experience of Redness has been a major target for my discussions with people on the various Philosophy of Mind and Consciousness Forums. There are people that flat out deny the Existence of the Experience of Redness. I think they give it their best shot at understanding it but they always fall back to just dismissing the Experience of something like Redness as pure Fantasy, Superstition, Magic, and Illusion. I have become convinced that their denials of Conscious Experience, their very words, show that they truly and simply do not perceive Redness as a kind of Experience. There is no Redness Experience. They are not Color blind so they can Detect Red in their Visual Field in some way but it seems to be more at the level of the Neural Activity. They can somehow sense that their Neurons are Firing for Red and indicate that there is Red in their Field of View but there seems to be no Experience of Redness in their Field of View. They deny any such extra Consciousness Phenomenon is happening. It almost seems like they must have some sort of Color Blindsight from birth.

I used to think they were just messing with me, and I was hoping that after all these years that they would get tired of continuing their Fraud. But I have come to realize they are not messing with me, they truly do not have Conscious Experiences or Qualia. In fact, they say that Qualia was invented by Idiot Philosophers. They (People on the Forums) are very often nasty and arrogant like that and I wonder if that is a symptom of their lack of Qualia. It is interesting that their lack of Qualia would make them living examples of the P-Zombies from Philosophy. One thing I can say is that if they really never have had an Experience of something like Redness then I can completely understand how they would think it was something Magical and Illusory. These people simply deny the Existence of Qualia and are completely stymied by talk of Qualia, which naturally results in their complete inability to understand the Hard Problem of Conscious Experience.

I have been astounded by the possibility that some people (mostly the Physicalists and the people that promote the Higher Order Theories of Consciousness) actually might not Experience the Color Qualia. It is a mystery to me what their Inner Experience of Color could be like. I have always tried to use the Experience of Redness as a discussion point for talking about Conscious Experiences. These people literally will say that there is no such thing as Redness and they always try to compare descriptions of Experiences of Redness to Religious Experiences. I have tried for a long time to get them to describe what the Experience of Redness means to them. After receiving mostly insults, one of them gave me a description of what the Experience of Redness was from their own point of view. He dismissively said that his Experience was the same as everybody else. He described the multitude of Emotions and Memories that were Experienced while Seeing Red. He went on to describe particular Emotions and Memories. I noticed that there was no recognition of the Experience of the Redness itself, but rather it seemed like his Experience of Redness wholly consisted of Associations to other things. This seemed a little odd, but telling. So I then asked him to strip away all the Emotions, Memories, and other Associations from his Experience of Redness and tell me if there was anything still remaining in the Experience. Here is his reply: "How the {!#%@} would I know? It isn't possible for me to 'strip out all the Emotions, Memories, and any other Associations'. Further, I don't believe for a moment that you can either, Steve. This is navel-gazing, pure and simple." This person obviously does not Experience the Redness, but rather Experiences all these other things in place of the Redness Experience. He literally can not figure out what I am talking about. Notice the reference to Navel-Gazing. He still thinks that the Redness is a Religious Experience.

After some further conversations I now understand what an Experience of Redness is for these Physicalists. When they think about Experiencing Redness they always branch off into talking about Emotions and Memories. For them, it appears that the actual Experience of Redness is an Experience of Emotions and an Experience of Memories. That is the Experience for them and there is nothing else for them to report. This is of course why they hate the word Qualia, because it does indeed imply that there is something else happening with the Experience of Redness. I can fully see how they would think that the concept of Qualia is Redundant to their Experience. I can fully now understand why they would think that Qualia and the Experience of Redness are different things. For the Physicalists the Experience of Redness is not what I expected. It is something different than my Experience of Redness. I Experience Redness as a Quale and they Experience Redness as associated Emotions and Memories. In fact I can say I really don't even Experience Redness as Emotions and Memories at all. I just simply Experience Redness as a Thing In Itself.

Another discussion thread I have participated in where the people denied the Existence of Qualia was one where the people were convinced that we cannot see a Color until we have a Word for the Color. This seems like a very strange thing to believe. I tried in vain to convince them that the Word for the Color does not make the Color real but that the direct Experience of the Color is real. They could not understand what I was talking about. This can only make sense if you consider that they might never have Experienced a Color Quale. They instead receive some kind of Signals from their Neurons that give them some type of Indications about the different Colors, but without any actual Conscious Experience of the Colors. I can see how the Words might be of prime importance to them.

But yet another example of People that probably have no Conscious Experiences or Qualia are the people that don't understand the difference between a Computer detecting Red and a Human detecting Red. They probably also just Detect Red in some way but have never had an actual Experience of Redness.

The evidence for this lack of Conscious Experience in some people is continuing to grow. It explains the endless arguments about Conscious Experience and Qualia. These people simply do not have Qualia. The Lights are out in their Minds.

Is there any evidence to suggest that some people have a lack of qualia? I know that you speak of people not being able to describe redness to you but it is visual more than anything else. It might be more helpful to ask them to identify the colour in visual form. Do you think that you may be trying more to get them to understand the concept of qualia, which can be a bit of a tangent. On the basis of what you have written it seems unfair to refer to the people as not having conscious awareness simply because they don't use the same framework for thinking about qualia as yourself.

Just the fact that many people will talk about Emotions and Memories when describing their Experience of Color. They seem only to have Emotions and Memories. They seem to have no direct Experience of the Qualia of Color. They will often say you cannot even Experience Color before you have a certain amount of Associations built up over time. Why would some people think there is a problem with Experiencing Redness before you know the Word Red? This is very very odd to me, and was a complete mystery until I realized that they might not actually be Experiencing the Redness Quale but something quite different. For all I know, half the population on the Planet might See like that. I might even be in the minority of being a Qualia perceiver. I think if you Experience Qualia you know it. If you are unable to absolutely and immediately understand the concept of Qualia then I think it is possible that you don't have Qualia. All these people that are so eager and willing to say Qualia are an Illusion cannot really have the Qualia that I know.

My Experience of something like Redness has literally no associations with Emotions and Memories, but rather I directly Experience the Quale of Redness as a thing in itself that appears in my Visual Experience. The question is: Why should we expect everybody to have the same Visual Experience that you do or that I do. That might be a big mistake and will only be resolved when Science can measure Conscious Experience directly. Other people's Visual Experience might be totally Alien if it could be measured. But then my Visual Experience would be Alien to them.

You write from an engineering background and as being interested in philosophy. I write from a mental health nursing background as well as an interest in philosophy. I also do make art and have studied art therapy. My experience of redness is with reference to making art as much as it is about philosophy. These aspects come into play when speaking about qualia and our understanding of it.

For many, talking about redness may be difficult except by comparisons, such as a red sky or a red pillar box. It is more about the way one stops and think. Some people are better able to articulate their ideas in words but that may not mean that they are less conscious. People have different development of the various senses. My two most developed ones are sight and sound. I am not that able to talk about taste and smell like some people, but it would just be that I focus on it less, not that I am missing the quale. I have paid more attention to these through mindfulness exercises. As human beings, there is so much to pay attention to and there is a selective process and each person's processing is unique, just as the experience of qualia is unique, and associative memory comes into play.

[SteveKlinko]

You write from an engineering background and as being interested in philosophy. I write from a mental health nursing background as well as an interest in philosophy. I also do make art and have studied art therapy. My experience of redness is with reference to making art as much as it is about philosophy. These aspects come into play when speaking about qualia and our understanding of it.

For many, talking about redness may be difficult except by comparisons, such as a red sky or a red pillar box. It is more about the way one stops and think. Some people are better able to articulate their ideas in words but that may not mean that they are less conscious. People have different development of the various senses. My two most developed ones are sight and sound. I am not that able to talk about taste and smell like some people, but it would just be that I focus on it less, not that I am missing the quale. I have paid more attention to these through mindfulness exercises. As human beings, there is so much to pay attention to and there is a selective process and each person's processing is unique, just as the experience of qualia is unique, and associative memory comes into play.

But there is a common thing about the Red Sky and the Pillar Box. It's the Redness. I have a hard time understanding the difficulty in discerning that common fact, separated out from anything else (Emotions or Memories) about Red Skys and Pillar Boxes. I have thought about all the Conscious Experiences. The Salty Taste, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a Rough Surface, Pain, Pleasure, Hate, Love, and etc. These are all Experiences of different types. I have no real difficulty in Isolating each one of them and Contemplating them. I thought every body could do that but I am getting skeptical.

[JackDaydream]

You write from an engineering background and as being interested in philosophy. I write from a mental health nursing background as well as an interest in philosophy. I also do make art and have studied art therapy. My experience of redness is with reference to making art as much as it is about philosophy. These aspects come into play when speaking about qualia and our understanding of it.

For many, talking about redness may be difficult except by comparisons, such as a red sky or a red pillar box. It is more about the way one stops and think. Some people are better able to articulate their ideas in words but that may not mean that they are less conscious. People have different development of the various senses. My two most developed ones are sight and sound. I am not that able to talk about taste and smell like some people, but it would just be that I focus on it less, not that I am missing the quale. I have paid more attention to these through mindfulness exercises. As human beings, there is so much to pay attention to and there is a selective process and each person's processing is unique, just as the experience of qualia is unique, and associative memory comes into play.

But there is a common thing about the Red Sky and the Pillar Box. It's the Redness. I have a hard time understanding the difficulty in discerning that common fact, separated out from anything else (Emotions or Memories) about Red Skys and Pillar Boxes. I have thought about all the Conscious Experiences. The Salty Taste, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a Rough Surface, Pain, Pleasure, Hate, Love, and etc. These are all Experiences of different types. I have no real difficulty in Isolating each one of them and Contemplating them. I thought every body could do that but I am getting skeptical.

I can probably identify and contemplate the various quale of which you speak, although the emotions of love are a bit more complex because they can coexist. However, the awareness of the intricacies of quale is learned. For example, I can identify and name many subtle shades of colour because I have bought individual watercolour pencils in shops. People who cook can probably name the various tastes and smells of different herbs or ingredients in ways which I cannot do. I am a bit more attuned to senses through using aromatherapy oils, but probably not enough because people told me that I smelt 'strange' after using these and I was not aware that the oils would be detected by others.

It may be that the potential receptors of qualia exist potentially. The development of these may be about attention to detail, because there is so much stimuli, to be taken in. For example, if someone was driving they would probably not be advised to be paying too much attention to the shades of the greens in the trees which they are passing. Mindfulness can be about fine tuning of qualia and, writing or recording the details may be important as part of this.

Also, the more time people spend on devices, dealing with information, may make people more cut off from the awareness and contemplation of sensory experiences and the inner world.

[SteveKlinko]

You write from an engineering background and as being interested in philosophy. I write from a mental health nursing background as well as an interest in philosophy. I also do make art and have studied art therapy. My experience of redness is with reference to making art as much as it is about philosophy. These aspects come into play when speaking about qualia and our understanding of it.

For many, talking about redness may be difficult except by comparisons, such as a red sky or a red pillar box. It is more about the way one stops and think. Some people are better able to articulate their ideas in words but that may not mean that they are less conscious. People have different development of the various senses. My two most developed ones are sight and sound. I am not that able to talk about taste and smell like some people, but it would just be that I focus on it less, not that I am missing the quale. I have paid more attention to these through mindfulness exercises. As human beings, there is so much to pay attention to and there is a selective process and each person's processing is unique, just as the experience of qualia is unique, and associative memory comes into play.

But there is a common thing about the Red Sky and the Pillar Box. It's the Redness. I have a hard time understanding the difficulty in discerning that common fact, separated out from anything else (Emotions or Memories) about Red Skys and Pillar Boxes. I have thought about all the Conscious Experiences. The Salty Taste, the Smell of Bleach, the Touch of a Rough Surface, Pain, Pleasure, Hate, Love, and etc. These are all Experiences of different types. I have no real difficulty in Isolating each one of them and Contemplating them. I thought every body could do that but I am getting skeptical.

I can probably identify and contemplate the various quale of which you speak, although the emotions of love are a bit more complex because they can coexist. However, the awareness of the intricacies of quale is learned. For example, I can identify and name many subtle shades of colour because I have bought individual watercolour pencils in shops. People who cook can probably name the various tastes and smells of different herbs or ingredients in ways which I cannot do. I am a bit more attuned to senses through using aromatherapy oils, but probably not enough because people told me that I smelt 'strange' after using these and I was not aware that the oils would be detected by others.

Just because you can name more Colors than other people does not mean you can see more Colors than other people. Same for Smells and Tastes.

It may be that the potential receptors of qualia exist potentially. The development of these may be about attention to detail, because there is so much stimuli, to be taken in. For example, if someone was driving they would probably not be advised to be paying too much attention to the shades of the greens in the trees which they are passing. Mindfulness can be about fine tuning of qualia and, writing or recording the details may be important as part of this.

Also, the more time people spend on devices, dealing with information, may make people more cut off from the awareness and contemplation of sensory experiences and the inner world.

I agree.

[Consul]

There is (sensory) perception, and there is imagination. There is an interesting pathological phenomenon called aphantasia. This term means "absence/lack of imagination", but it usually refers only to the absence/lack of visual imagination (visualization) rather than to the absence/lack of all kinds of imagination (visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory…). People with visual aphantasia are able to visually perceive things, but they are unable to visually imagine them.

QUOTE>
"We coined the term “aphantasia” in 2015 to refer to the absence of the mind’s eye, the inability to visualize (…). The term owes a debt to Aristotle, who described the capacity for visual imagery as “phantasia” (…): the “a” in aphantasia denotes its absence, by analogy with “aphasia,” the absence of language, or “amnesia,” the absence of memory. A convenient term was needed as the preceding literature had used unwieldy phrases for the same purpose such as “defective visualisation” (…) and “visual irreminiscence” (…).We employed the word initially to describe a small group of individuals who had never been able to visualize, with lifelong or “congenital” aphantasia.
…
Throughout this chapter, the emphasis will be on visual imagery (…), as this was the context in which the term aphantasia was coined. However, imagery can of course be more or less vivid in other sensory modalities – the mind’s ear, for example, can be more or less keen – and I will refer from time to time to the other senses."

(Zeman, Adam. "Aphantasia". In The Cambridge Handbook of the Imagination, edited by Anna Abraham, 692-710. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2020. pp. 692-3)
<QUOTE

[Consul]

There is (sensory) perception, and there is imagination.

In my understanding, the latter is the mental imitation or simulation of the former. To use Hume's terms, ideas, i.e. mental images, are copies of (sense-)impressions.

There is an interesting pathological phenomenon called aphantasia. This term means "absence/lack of imagination", but it usually refers only to the absence/lack of visual imagination (visualization) rather than to the absence/lack of all kinds of imagination (visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory…).

In my understanding, thought is inner speech; and as such it is itself a kind of imagination: linguistic imagination (= the simulation of outer speech)—which is the visual or auditory imagination of (seeing &) reading or (saying &) hearing words and sentences. (Or if the symbols are Braille letters for the blind, with Braille being a tactile writing&reading system, then linguistic imagination consists in the imagination of feeling Braille letters with one's fingers.)

Total aphantasia would mean the absence of thought, since thought consists in the use of linguistic imagery, which involves the use of visual, auditory, or tactile imagery.

[SteveKlinko]

There is (sensory) perception, and there is imagination.

In my understanding, the latter is the mental imitation or simulation of the former. To use Hume's terms, ideas, i.e. mental images, are copies of (sense-)impressions.

There is an interesting pathological phenomenon called aphantasia. This term means "absence/lack of imagination", but it usually refers only to the absence/lack of visual imagination (visualization) rather than to the absence/lack of all kinds of imagination (visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory…).

In my understanding, thought is inner speech; and as such it is itself a kind of imagination: linguistic imagination (= the simulation of outer speech)—which is the visual or auditory imagination of (seeing &) reading or (saying &) hearing words and sentences. (Or if the symbols are Braille letters for the blind, with Braille being a tactile writing&reading system, then linguistic imagination consists in the imagination of feeling Braille letters with one's fingers.)

Total aphantasia would mean the absence of thought, since thought consists in the use of linguistic imagery, which involves the use of visual, auditory, or tactile imagery.

Yes, and I think in normal people there is a spectrum of fidelity from very hazy and indistinct to very crisp and clear for Visual Imagination. My Visual Imagination is on the low end of the fidelity spectrum, because my Visual Imaginings are usually pretty hazy and indistinct.

[JackDaydream]

There is (sensory) perception, and there is imagination.

In my understanding, the latter is the mental imitation or simulation of the former. To use Hume's terms, ideas, i.e. mental images, are copies of (sense-)impressions.

There is an interesting pathological phenomenon called aphantasia. This term means "absence/lack of imagination", but it usually refers only to the absence/lack of visual imagination (visualization) rather than to the absence/lack of all kinds of imagination (visual, auditory, tactile, olfactory, gustatory…).

In my understanding, thought is inner speech; and as such it is itself a kind of imagination: linguistic imagination (= the simulation of outer speech)—which is the visual or auditory imagination of (seeing &) reading or (saying &) hearing words and sentences. (Or if the symbols are Braille letters for the blind, with Braille being a tactile writing&reading system, then linguistic imagination consists in the imagination of feeling Braille letters with one's fingers.)

Total aphantasia would mean the absence of thought, since thought consists in the use of linguistic imagery, which involves the use of visual, auditory, or tactile imagery.

Yes, and I think in normal people there is a spectrum of fidelity from very hazy and indistinct to very crisp and clear for Visual Imagination. My Visual Imagination is on the low end of the fidelity spectrum, because my Visual Imaginings are usually pretty hazy and indistinct.

What I am a little unclear about in your writing is the nature of imagination and the inner world. The nature of sensory experiences is important and points to the impor of the sensory aspects of existence and experience. I am not saying that you, anymore than other people are not tackling this. But, the bridge between material reality and the inner world are important here. I know that you have your own model but it is so hard to span the gap between mind and embodied experience, especially in terms of the sentient life of human beings.