Optical Illusions are Irrelevant. If you are Experiencing Green instead of the Red that is out there, as a hypothetical example, then you are Experiencing Green and not Red. The question is what is that Green that you are experiencing. Does not matter if the Green is falsely generated. Dreams are complete hallucinations or in a sense Optical Illusions. It does not matter that your Eyes are closed and there is literally no Color out there in you dark bedroom. You can still Experience all the Colors if you Dream in Color. What are those Experiences of Colors?Gertie wrote: ↑May 8th, 2022, 12:17 pmhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... b2c02a011dSteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 8th, 2022, 10:54 amBut I disagree. I can partition out and Experience the Redness of something in my Visual Field of View quite easily. The other parts of the Image in my FOV are Irrelevant to the Experience of the Redness. For that matter I can even Experience Redness purely from my Imagination. I can See the Redness as a thing in itself. It makes no difference what the context is, to See or Experience the Redness.Gertie wrote: ↑May 8th, 2022, 7:51 am StevekIf we think about the state of our neural connections every time we experience seeing or imagining a red something, the totality of that experience will be correlated to all the neural activity happening in any specific moment, which is highly complex and effectively unique from person to person (and moment to moment for each person) in its precise details.My Experience of something like Redness has literally no associations with Emotions and Memories, but rather I directly Experience the Quale of Redness as a thing in itself that appears in my Visual Experience. The question is: Why should we expect everybody to have the same Visual Experience that you do or that I do. That might be a big mistake and will only be resolved when Science can measure Conscious Experience directly. Other people's Visual Experience might be totally Alien if it could be measured. But then my Visual Experience would be Alien to them.
So depending on past experiences creating specific neural patterns of connections available to be re-stimulated, seeing a red pillar pillar box might spark a specific set of neural activity in me and a different one in you, as well as the totality of the stimuli I'm having in that moment being different to yours.
I don't think it's possible to ever experience 'redness' in isolation to everything else going on experientially. Brains just don't work that way, but we can still identify categories of types of experience like this or that colour.
And these categories are isolatable enough to both agree we are looking at a bright red pillar box or whatever, and match it to a colour chart ('representing' a particular light wave length hitting human visual system) when we both focus in on identifying the colour.
Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
You seem to be having a hard time understanding the points made. Or perhaps it is just an unwillingness to address them. I'd said,SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 7:46 am
It is astounding that you have trouble discerning the difference between actually Experiencing Redness and the Hex Number.
"Anyone other than ourselves who can "sense that their neurons are firing for red" and "indicate that there is Red in their field of view" IS "having an experience of red," by definition, regardless of denial he may assert. Such facts are the only basis we have for attributing conscious experience to anyone other than ourselves."
To which you respond with the completely irrelevant, "So do you think that when a Computer has the Hex Number 00ff0000 (the usual number for pure Red) in a buffer, that is the same thing as Experiencing Redness?"
When I then say,
"Whether it is experiencing "redness" would depend upon its behavior, not upon any values in its memory or registers. Nor would I have any means of determining whether its experience of "redness" was the "same" as my experience of it, any more than I can determine whether my experience of "redness" is the same as yours,"
you respond again with the same irrelevant point.
We will decide whether a machine has conscious experience based on its behavior, just as we do with other humans. And, as with humans, we will likely find that any subjective experience it reports will be correlated with a particular state of its hardware, just as is the case with humans.
No, an experience (of "redness" or anything else) is not the same as a neural state. The relationship between them is one of cause and effect, not identity.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
How does Behavior say anything about the Experience of Redness? This is an Incoherent pairing together of 2 different things. Try to think a little Deeper about the actual Experience of the Redness. No behaviors or thoughts or anything else are required. Simply Experience the Redness as a Thing In Itself. Recognize the Mystery of it. Enjoy the Mystery of it. (Before Science figures it out someday)GE Morton wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 12:25 pmYou seem to be having a hard time understanding the points made. Or perhaps it is just an unwillingness to address them. I'd said,SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 7:46 am
It is astounding that you have trouble discerning the difference between actually Experiencing Redness and the Hex Number.
"Anyone other than ourselves who can "sense that their neurons are firing for red" and "indicate that there is Red in their field of view" IS "having an experience of red," by definition, regardless of denial he may assert. Such facts are the only basis we have for attributing conscious experience to anyone other than ourselves."
To which you respond with the completely irrelevant, "So do you think that when a Computer has the Hex Number 00ff0000 (the usual number for pure Red) in a buffer, that is the same thing as Experiencing Redness?"
When I then say,
"Whether it is experiencing "redness" would depend upon its behavior, not upon any values in its memory or registers. Nor would I have any means of determining whether its experience of "redness" was the "same" as my experience of it, any more than I can determine whether my experience of "redness" is the same as yours,"
you respond again with the same irrelevant point.
We will decide whether a machine has conscious experience based on its behavior, just as we do with other humans. And, as with humans, we will likely find that any subjective experience it reports will be correlated with a particular state of its hardware, just as is the case with humans.
No, an experience (of "redness" or anything else) is not the same as a neural state. The relationship between them is one of cause and effect, not identity.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
It is only via their behavior that we determine that anyone (other than ourselves) is experiencing redness.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 1:28 pm
How does Behavior say anything about the Experience of Redness?
There is no "depth" to be explored regarding phenomenal experiences. They are the fundamental, primary elements of consciousness. They are primitive, unanalyzable and ineffable. Any "depth" you think you've discovered regarding them is an artifact of your imagination.This is an Incoherent pairing together of 2 different things. Try to think a little Deeper about the actual Experience of the Redness.
Oh, I agree. It is you who are doing all the thinking, trying to delve into their "depths."No behaviors or thoughts or anything else are required.
Anything that is primitive and unanalyzable will be, and will remain, mysterious, per force. But if explanation consists in finding causes for effects, then consciousness is not inexplicable.Simply Experience the Redness as a Thing In Itself. Recognize the Mystery of it. Enjoy the Mystery of it.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
One question : Aren't thoughts and emotions also qualia? if they cannot experience the qualia of redness, they shd not be able to experience the qualia of thoughts, memories , emotions.. instead they shd be experiencing these as some neuronal signals different than what I experience
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
We are at an Impasse on everything you said here except the very last sentence. I think Science will figure out Consciousness someday.GE Morton wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 1:57 pmIt is only via their behavior that we determine that anyone (other than ourselves) is experiencing redness.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 1:28 pm
How does Behavior say anything about the Experience of Redness?
There is no "depth" to be explored regarding phenomenal experiences. They are the fundamental, primary elements of consciousness. They are primitive, unanalyzable and ineffable. Any "depth" you think you've discovered regarding them is an artifact of your imagination.This is an Incoherent pairing together of 2 different things. Try to think a little Deeper about the actual Experience of the Redness.
Oh, I agree. It is you who are doing all the thinking, trying to delve into their "depths."No behaviors or thoughts or anything else are required.
Anything that is primitive and unanalyzable will be, and will remain, mysterious, per force. But if explanation consists in finding causes for effects, then consciousness is not inexplicable.Simply Experience the Redness as a Thing In Itself. Recognize the Mystery of it. Enjoy the Mystery of it.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
Emotions, Memories, and Thoughts (Imagery, and Internal Voice) are certainly Conscious Experiences or Qualia. I think that some people might not have Qualia for a certain limited group of Experiences such as, only the Color Experiences. But in my thinking we are nothing but the Conscious Experiences of our Minds. Even if these people do not have the Redness Conscious Experience they must have some kind of other Conscious Experience for Red that does not involve the Redness Qualia. But their Experience of Redness seems to be way less interesting and more of a Sensation of sensing certain Neurons are firing. But these is just my observations after many years of talking to the people that deny Qualia even exist.siva wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 11:50 pm Interesting view..
One question : Aren't thoughts and emotions also qualia? if they cannot experience the qualia of redness, they shd not be able to experience the qualia of thoughts, memories , emotions.. instead they shd be experiencing these as some neuronal signals different than what I experience
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
The scope of the term "qualia" is unsettled in the literature. While it was coined to denote the differentia among sensory inputs, many have extended it to other non-sensory differentia. One reasonable classification is:siva wrote: ↑May 9th, 2022, 11:50 pm Interesting view..
One question : Aren't thoughts and emotions also qualia? if they cannot experience the qualia of redness, they shd not be able to experience the qualia of thoughts, memories , emotions.. instead they shd be experiencing these as some neuronal signals different than what I experience
* Sensory qualia (differences in inputs over sensory channels (colors, odors, tones, flavors, tactile sensations).
* Autonomic qualia (feelings of pain, various types of aches, hunger, thirst, sleepiness, sexual arousal, etc.)
* Affective qualia (differences between anger, joy, fear, worry, love, sadness, contentment, etc.).
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
If they have a "Conscious Experience for Red" then they have a "Redness Qualia." You seem to be imagining that there is a "Redness Qualia" that is in some sense distinct from the phenomenal awareness of red, that it has some sort of independent existence. Your "redness qualia" is whatever you experience when beholding a red object. Whether it is the same as what someone else beholding the same object experiences is unanswerable. That is a meaningless question.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 10th, 2022, 7:34 am
I think that some people might not have Qualia for a certain limited group of Experiences such as, only the Color Experiences. But in my thinking we are nothing but the Conscious Experiences of our Minds. Even if these people do not have the Redness Conscious Experience they must have some kind of other Conscious Experience for Red that does not involve the Redness Qualia.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
What do you mean by this?? are you saying that we are a sum total of our "conscious experiences" or our identity at any point in time "just the present conscious experience"?
I view our identity as "consciousness/awareness simpliciter", meaning we are that which is aware (the subject) and experiences occur to us and in us!!
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
The Experience of Redness that I have in my Conscious Mind really does not have anything to do with the Red Electromagnetic Light out in the External World. I had thought that there might be slight differences in different peoples Experience but I'm not talking about slight differences I'm talking about radical Categorical differences in how different people See. Even if you had your Red an Green swapped in your Brain you would still be seeing a Color and you would think that Green is Red. But the people I'm talking about don't seem to have an Experience of anything like a Color Qualia. They say that Colors are pretty mundane and they don't ever understand the special Experience of Redness or Greenness. They perceive Color in an incomprehensible way to me. In fact they don't think you can have an Experience of Color without many encounters with that Color and building Emotional connections and Memories with that Color. They Experience all these Associations as the Color Experience itself and they cannot comprehend that there is a Color Quale Experience at the foundation of it all. For me Redness is something that I Directly and Immediately Experience. No Associations or Memories need ed.GE Morton wrote: ↑May 10th, 2022, 2:06 pmIf they have a "Conscious Experience for Red" then they have a "Redness Qualia." You seem to be imagining that there is a "Redness Qualia" that is in some sense distinct from the phenomenal awareness of red, that it has some sort of independent existence. Your "redness qualia" is whatever you experience when beholding a red object. Whether it is the same as what someone else beholding the same object experiences is unanswerable. That is a meaningless question.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 10th, 2022, 7:34 am
I think that some people might not have Qualia for a certain limited group of Experiences such as, only the Color Experiences. But in my thinking we are nothing but the Conscious Experiences of our Minds. Even if these people do not have the Redness Conscious Experience they must have some kind of other Conscious Experience for Red that does not involve the Redness Qualia.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
I mean that we are the Conscious Light that we Experience. We are the Conscious Sound. We are the Conscious etc. There could be an Experiencer but I'm thinking more and more that there really is no Experiencer but just the Experiences. You cannot detect your own Experiencer except indirectly through Experiences. Without Experiences the Experiencer is truly Nothing. So it is logical to conclude that the Experiencer does not even really Exist. Only the Experiences Exist and you are these Experiences. Understanding that you are Light (and all Experiences) is a fascinating Realization that will change your whole concept of Being. You will be released from the Point view of Being to a whole new Distributed view of Being.siva wrote: ↑May 10th, 2022, 10:55 pm " But in my thinking we are nothing but the Conscious Experiences of our Minds"
What do you mean by this?? are you saying that we are a sum total of our "conscious experiences" or our identity at any point in time "just the present conscious experience"?
I view our identity as "consciousness/awareness simpliciter", meaning we are that which is aware (the subject) and experiences occur to us and in us!!
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
Really? Has nothing to so with it? Then what is the basis for calling it a "red" experience?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 11th, 2022, 7:26 am
The Experience of Redness that I have in my Conscious Mind really does not have anything to do with the Red Electromagnetic Light out in the External World.
Each color is "special" because it is distinctive, distinguishable from other colors. What else do you think makes it "special"? "Special" in what way? Is this perhaps some sort of aesthetic or emotional response you have to it?I had thought that there might be slight differences in different peoples Experience but I'm not talking about slight differences I'm talking about radical Categorical differences in how different people See. Even if you had your Red an Green swapped in your Brain you would still be seeing a Color and you would think that Green is Red. But the people I'm talking about don't seem to have an Experience of anything like a Color Qualia. They say that Colors are pretty mundane and they don't ever understand the special Experience of Redness or Greenness.
Who has argued that?In fact they don't think you can have an Experience of Color without many encounters with that Color and building Emotional connections and Memories with that Color.
Yes, you immediately and directly experience redness --- provided red light is striking your retina, or when recalling it from a previous exposure to red light. That is an association. Any experience you may have that is not associated with exposure to red light is not a "red experience," or "Experience of Redness."For me Redness is something that I Directly and Immediately Experience. No Associations or Memories need ed.
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
Before asking whether qualia exist, the meaning of "qualia"—the particular one presupposed and used in the question—should be clarified first! For one can consistently deny the existence of qualia in one sense of the term and affirm their existence in another sense of the term.SteveKlinko wrote: ↑May 10th, 2022, 7:34 amBut these is just my observations after many years of talking to the people that deny Qualia even exist.
See: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/qualia/
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
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Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
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