Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

Sy Borg wrote: May 18th, 2022, 4:51 pm Consul is correct. Waves can exist in all manner of media - in EM waves space, sound waves in the air, ocean waves, metal resonance, seismic waves, the list foes on.

Philosophical zombies do not exist. They are a thought experiment proposed by David Chalmers in describing the hard problem of consciousness.
Why are you talking about other Media. We are talking specifically about Waves in Water in which case the Waves are made out of Water. This stems from the concept of Emergent Properties. The claim is always that Consciousness is a Property that Emerges from the Neural Activity like a Wave is a Property that Emerges from the Water. We know that Water Waves are, simply, made out of the Water and this is obvious and easily understood, unless you want to dance around doing Sematic acrobatics all day long. Consciousness however cannot be justified with this kind of analogy to Emerge as a Property from the Neurons. It is an Incoherent analogy.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by Sy Borg »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 19th, 2022, 7:45 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 18th, 2022, 4:51 pm Consul is correct. Waves can exist in all manner of media - in EM waves space, sound waves in the air, ocean waves, metal resonance, seismic waves, the list foes on.

Philosophical zombies do not exist. They are a thought experiment proposed by David Chalmers in describing the hard problem of consciousness.
Why are you talking about other Media. We are talking specifically about Waves in Water in which case the Waves are made out of Water. This stems from the concept of Emergent Properties. The claim is always that Consciousness is a Property that Emerges from the Neural Activity like a Wave is a Property that Emerges from the Water. We know that Water Waves are, simply, made out of the Water and this is obvious and easily understood, unless you want to dance around doing Sematic acrobatics all day long. Consciousness however cannot be justified with this kind of analogy to Emerge as a Property from the Neurons. It is an Incoherent analogy.
Okay, I hadn't picked up on your angle.

I lean towards Koch's light panpsychism, that there's more to consciousness than neuronal activity, but brains are essential for the kind of consciousness that humans value.
SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

Sy Borg wrote: May 19th, 2022, 8:26 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 19th, 2022, 7:45 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 18th, 2022, 4:51 pm Consul is correct. Waves can exist in all manner of media - in EM waves space, sound waves in the air, ocean waves, metal resonance, seismic waves, the list foes on.

Philosophical zombies do not exist. They are a thought experiment proposed by David Chalmers in describing the hard problem of consciousness.
Why are you talking about other Media. We are talking specifically about Waves in Water in which case the Waves are made out of Water. This stems from the concept of Emergent Properties. The claim is always that Consciousness is a Property that Emerges from the Neural Activity like a Wave is a Property that Emerges from the Water. We know that Water Waves are, simply, made out of the Water and this is obvious and easily understood, unless you want to dance around doing Sematic acrobatics all day long. Consciousness however cannot be justified with this kind of analogy to Emerge as a Property from the Neurons. It is an Incoherent analogy.
Okay, I hadn't picked up on your angle.

I lean towards Koch's light panpsychism, that there's more to consciousness than neuronal activity, but brains are essential for the kind of consciousness that humans value.
Koch's book "The Quest for Consciousness" was my Bible for many years. He invented the concept of Neural Correlates of Consciousness. He brilliantly presented all the aspects of Consciousness known at that time. I believe he fully realized back then that Science actually understood Zero about actual Consciousness and Conscious Experience. More recently he has gone off the rails with Integrated Information Theory and a bit of Panpsychism. Don't know how he can justify these theories in view of his original book. I think he hit the Brick Wall that has plagued any advances in Consciousness Theory, and just gave up and threw himself at whatever was out there.
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Consul
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by Consul »

SteveKlinko wrote: May 19th, 2022, 7:45 amWhy are you talking about other Media. We are talking specifically about Waves in Water in which case the Waves are made out of Water. …We know that Water Waves are, simply, made out of the Water and this is obvious and easily understood, unless you want to dance around doing Sematic acrobatics all day long.…
Okay, there is the following ordinary-language meaning of "wave", which is different from its physical meaning:

"a long body of water curling into an arched form and breaking on the shore" (Oxford Dictionary)

Given this meaning, water waves are masses of water with a certain surface shape; but, as I said, waves in the scientific sense of the term qua energy-transferring disturbances in a medium such as water and air are not masses or bodies of water.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
SteveKlinko
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Re: Some People Might Not Have Conscious Experiences

Post by SteveKlinko »

Consul wrote: May 20th, 2022, 4:26 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: May 19th, 2022, 7:45 amWhy are you talking about other Media. We are talking specifically about Waves in Water in which case the Waves are made out of Water. …We know that Water Waves are, simply, made out of the Water and this is obvious and easily understood, unless you want to dance around doing Sematic acrobatics all day long.…
Okay, there is the following ordinary-language meaning of "wave", which is different from its physical meaning:

"a long body of water curling into an arched form and breaking on the shore" (Oxford Dictionary)

Given this meaning, water waves are masses of water with a certain surface shape; but, as I said, waves in the scientific sense of the term qua energy-transferring disturbances in a medium such as water and air are not masses or bodies of water.
Yawn!
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