Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

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psyreporter
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

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Samana Johann wrote: June 28th, 2022, 10:37 pm Where ever there is mine-ing, meaning, there world take place. Why searching for meanings, world, when clear that what ever comes into be-ing, is subject to decay, good SNT?
Yes, that question is a good one. Why anything at all one might equally ask, although that question would not be the human's responsibility so the human can safely find itself thrown into the world and 'not think' much further, i.e. perform as an animal and be happy/content.

From my perspective, if the question 'why' can be asked one might also consider, why not and subsequently, what could be missed with insufficient motivation?

Finding motivation to explore a world that cannot be seen (a world of meaning beyond time and space) might be difficult however the prophecy by Albert Einstein could indicate that it is of vital importance that the human does find both a method and motivation to explore that world.

Albert Einstein's prophecy: “Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path [explore that 'other' world of meaning]. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space."

Why stick around in empirical or 'repeatable' world as a primordial animal or 'a humble observer' that can safely argue that it could not know better because it doesn't know how to answer 'why'?

When the question 'why' can be asked - which the prophecy by Albert Einstein makes evident - the human better pulls itself up by its own bootstraps - i.e. kick itself under its butt - to find motivation to reach an ultimate state of fulfilment to answer the question and to unlock all potential value that might be of vital importance for humanity's intellectual progress and long term prosperity.

As snt pointed out, some humans have found motivation for exploration in ego. This may explain the concept 🧙‍♀️'wizard', 'magician' or 'special gifted person' but in reality, as it appears to me, it concerns an aspect of reality, and thus, there may be methods for motivation and exploration that do not require human ego.

The following references provide an insight of what might be possible.

https://parapsychology.org/
https://espresearch.com/
https://www.irva.org/ (non-profit, 501(c)(3) organization dedicated to promoting the responsible use and development of remote viewing)

From a philosophical perspective it may concern very different questions and exploration. For example, parapsychology would only care about the human psychology aspect of phenomenons that are possible by that 'other' world of meaning while philosophy would be interested in fundamental questions.

Albert Einstein's prophecy might be most applicable to indicate the core motivation for philosophical exploration, the outlook on a new query/exploration method such as 'the scientific method' for the highest interest of humanity: intellectual progress.
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by Samana Johann »

psyreporter wrote: June 29th, 2022, 4:28 am
Samana Johann wrote: June 28th, 2022, 10:37 pm Where ever there is mine-ing, meaning, there world take place. Why searching for meanings, world, when clear that what ever comes into be-ing, is subject to decay, good SNT?
Yes, that question is a good one. Why anything at all one might equally ask, although that question would not be the human's responsibility so the human can safely find itself thrown into the world and 'not think' much further, i.e. perform as an animal and be happy/content.

From my perspective, if the question 'why' can be asked one might also consider, why not and subsequently, what could be missed with insufficient motivation?
That was already pointed out, good householder: because what ever comes into be-ing is subject to decay, e.g. suffering. Sure, one could say why not suffer, but it would be pointless to waste time for such.

Why, if seeing the issue, not seeking for something beyond mean-ing, beyond sense?
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

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3017Metaphysician wrote: June 27th, 2022, 11:17 am
Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?


snt!

Excellent questions. Accordingly, first of all, one has to remember that asking the right questions, is that of the synthetic a priori. Meaning, if one were not even able to ask 'the right questions' in science or otherwise, what kinds if discoveries would there be, and what kind of impacts would there be on one's quality (Qualia) of life?

So let's see, perhaps that speaks a little to the second question. One's quality of life is enhanced by the ability to query the right concepts. Whether it is critique of pure reason, critique of manufactured products, critique of interpersonal relationships, cognitive science, etc., the intrinsic need to wonder why things are the way they are, and the corresponding causes associated with them, is rich in meaning, purpose and one's quality of life.

The 'idea of a world' could be noumenal, in that the Will to breath fire into the cosmological equations involve purpose, meaning, feeling, intuition, quality of life and so on. Corresponding to the existence of consciousness (conscious Beings), provides for that sense of self-awareness from which we cannot escape. Humanistically, mere instinct alone, is only half the 'equation'. Even Hume acquiesced to sentience as a cause for such a need for human's practicing empirical science. For example, the definition of the Will:

Schopenhauer used the word will as a human's most familiar designation for the concept that can also be signified by other words such as desire, striving, wanting, effort and urging. Schopenhauer's philosophy holds that all nature, including man, is the expression of an insatiable will. It is through the will, the in-itself of all existence, that humans find all their suffering. Desire for more is what causes this suffering. He argues that only aesthetic pleasure creates momentary escape from the will. Schopenhauer's concept of desire has strong parallels in Buddhist thought. Buddhism identifies the individual's pervasive sense of dissatisfaction as driving craving, roughly similar to what Schopenhauer would call the will to life. Both assert that remedies for this condition include contemplative, ascetic activities.

Taking the transcendental idealism of Immanuel Kant as his starting point, Schopenhauer argues that the world humans experience around them—the world of objects in space and time and related in causal ways—exists solely as "representation" (Vorstellung) dependent on a cognizing subject, not as a world that can be considered to exist in itself (i.e. independently of how it appears to the subject's mind). One's knowledge of objects is thus knowledge of mere phenomena rather than things-in-themselves. Schopenhauer identifies the thing-in-itself—the inner essence of everything—as will: a blind, unconscious, aimless striving devoid of knowledge, outside of space and time, and free of all multiplicity.

Schopenhauer argues that will is the Kantian thing-in-itself: the single essence underlying all objects and phenomena. Kant believed that space and time were merely the forms of our intuition by which we must perceive the world of phenomena, and these factors were absent from the thing-in-itself. Schopenhauer pointed out that anything outside of time and space could not be differentiated, so the thing-in-itself must be one. All things that exist, including human beings, must be part of this fundamental unity. The manifestation of the single will into the multiplicity of objects we experience is the will's objectivation. The will, as thing-in-itself, lies outside of the principle of sufficient reason (in all its forms) and is thus groundless (though each of the will's phenomena is subject to that principle).

All phenomena embodies essential striving: electricity and gravity, for instance, are described as fundamental forces of the will. Human capacity for cognition, Schopenhauer asserts, is subordinate to the demands of the will. Moreover, everything that wills necessarily suffers. Schopenhauer presents a pessimistic picture on which unfulfilled desires are painful, and pleasure is merely the sensation experienced at the instant one such pain is removed. However, most desires are never fulfilled, and those that are fulfilled are instantly replaced by more unfulfilled ones.


Philosophically, could the Will be that Kantian thing-in-itself which breath's fire into the Hawking equation's? A part of some noumenal world? A Hawking informational paradox?

In other words, since science has yet to develop a universal model of certainty that includes the nature of conscious existence, could the Will correspond with other phenomena found in physics (Higgs/Boson God particle, quantum tunneling, Non-locality, Wheeler's PAP, etc.)? Since the will is a metaphysical quality of consciousness, and the foregoing physical phenomena also seems partially meta-physical, what correlations are relevant to "a world of meaning"?

Proposed correlations might be:

1. Physical/metaphysical: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
2. Material/Immaterial : consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
3. Quantity/Quality: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/ physics)
4. Time/eternity: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
5. Subjective/objective: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
6. Mind/Matter: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
7. Abstract/Concrete: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)

Just a starting point to your query... !


Interesting reply and references!

Your citation of Schopenhauer is especially interesting: "Schopenhauer identifies the thing-in-itself—the inner essence of everything—as will: a blind, unconscious, aimless striving devoid of knowledge, outside of space and time, and free of all multiplicity."

With regard your proposed correlations. In my opinion the 'other' world of meaning concerns a world that precedes any concept of which it can be said to posses the quality Being. This is very difficult to take into consideration since as the OP has indicated, whatever meaning it involves, that meaning cannot be 'said' ("Written Down") or 'repeatable' or captured in a concept, e.g. subjective vs objective. It cannot be knowledge.

The meaning that it concerns would be otherwise than both subjective and objective but still meaningful and relevant to those concepts, similar to consciousness being relevant to both concepts - in the moment of conceptualization - without consciousness (as the principle of observing) - in that moment of conceptualization - being able to be captured in one of both concepts.
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Re: Non-locality - A world of meaning 'beyond logic and knowledge'?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

psyreporter wrote: June 29th, 2022, 5:14 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: June 27th, 2022, 11:17 am
Questions:

1) What is your opinion on the idea of a world of 'meaning' that precedes or lays beyond logic and knowledge?
2) Why would it be important that humans discover a method to explore that world?


snt!

Excellent questions. Accordingly, first of all, one has to remember that asking the right questions, is that of the synthetic a priori. Meaning, if one were not even able to ask 'the right questions' in science or otherwise, what kinds if discoveries would there be, and what kind of impacts would there be on one's quality (Qualia) of life?

So let's see, perhaps that speaks a little to the second question. One's quality of life is enhanced by the ability to query the right concepts. Whether it is critique of pure reason, critique of manufactured products, critique of interpersonal relationships, cognitive science, etc., the intrinsic need to wonder why things are the way they are, and the corresponding causes associated with them, is rich in meaning, purpose and one's quality of life.

The 'idea of a world' could be noumenal, in that the Will to breath fire into the cosmological equations involve purpose, meaning, feeling, intuition, quality of life and so on. Corresponding to the existence of consciousness (conscious Beings), provides for that sense of self-awareness from which we cannot escape. Humanistically, mere instinct alone, is only half the 'equation'. Even Hume acquiesced to sentience as a cause for such a need for human's practicing empirical science. For example, the definition of the Will:

Schopenhauer used the word will as a human's most familiar designation for the concept that can also be signified by other words such as desire, striving, wanting, effort and urging. Schopenhauer's philosophy holds that all nature, including man, is the expression of an insatiable will. It is through the will, the in-itself of all existence, that humans find all their suffering. Desire for more is what causes this suffering. He argues that only aesthetic pleasure creates momentary escape from the will. Schopenhauer's concept of desire has strong parallels in Buddhist thought. Buddhism identifies the individual's pervasive sense of dissatisfaction as driving craving, roughly similar to what Schopenhauer would call the will to life. Both assert that remedies for this condition include contemplative, ascetic activities.

Taking the transcendental idealism of Immanuel Kant as his starting point, Schopenhauer argues that the world humans experience around them—the world of objects in space and time and related in causal ways—exists solely as "representation" (Vorstellung) dependent on a cognizing subject, not as a world that can be considered to exist in itself (i.e. independently of how it appears to the subject's mind). One's knowledge of objects is thus knowledge of mere phenomena rather than things-in-themselves. Schopenhauer identifies the thing-in-itself—the inner essence of everything—as will: a blind, unconscious, aimless striving devoid of knowledge, outside of space and time, and free of all multiplicity.

Schopenhauer argues that will is the Kantian thing-in-itself: the single essence underlying all objects and phenomena. Kant believed that space and time were merely the forms of our intuition by which we must perceive the world of phenomena, and these factors were absent from the thing-in-itself. Schopenhauer pointed out that anything outside of time and space could not be differentiated, so the thing-in-itself must be one. All things that exist, including human beings, must be part of this fundamental unity. The manifestation of the single will into the multiplicity of objects we experience is the will's objectivation. The will, as thing-in-itself, lies outside of the principle of sufficient reason (in all its forms) and is thus groundless (though each of the will's phenomena is subject to that principle).

All phenomena embodies essential striving: electricity and gravity, for instance, are described as fundamental forces of the will. Human capacity for cognition, Schopenhauer asserts, is subordinate to the demands of the will. Moreover, everything that wills necessarily suffers. Schopenhauer presents a pessimistic picture on which unfulfilled desires are painful, and pleasure is merely the sensation experienced at the instant one such pain is removed. However, most desires are never fulfilled, and those that are fulfilled are instantly replaced by more unfulfilled ones.


Philosophically, could the Will be that Kantian thing-in-itself which breath's fire into the Hawking equation's? A part of some noumenal world? A Hawking informational paradox?

In other words, since science has yet to develop a universal model of certainty that includes the nature of conscious existence, could the Will correspond with other phenomena found in physics (Higgs/Boson God particle, quantum tunneling, Non-locality, Wheeler's PAP, etc.)? Since the will is a metaphysical quality of consciousness, and the foregoing physical phenomena also seems partially meta-physical, what correlations are relevant to "a world of meaning"?

Proposed correlations might be:

1. Physical/metaphysical: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
2. Material/Immaterial : consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
3. Quantity/Quality: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/ physics)
4. Time/eternity: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
5. Subjective/objective: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
6. Mind/Matter: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)
7. Abstract/Concrete: consciousness and cosmology (phenomena/physics)

Just a starting point to your query... !


Interesting reply and references!

Your citation of Schopenhauer is especially interesting: "Schopenhauer identifies the thing-in-itself—the inner essence of everything—as will: a blind, unconscious, aimless striving devoid of knowledge, outside of space and time, and free of all multiplicity."

With regard your proposed correlations. In my opinion the 'other' world of meaning concerns a world that precedes any concept of which it can be said to posses the quality Being. This is very difficult to take into consideration since as the OP has indicated, whatever meaning it involves, that meaning cannot be 'said' ("Written Down") or 'repeatable' or captured in a concept, e.g. subjective vs objective. It cannot be knowledge.

The meaning that it concerns would be otherwise than both subjective and objective but still meaningful and relevant to those concepts, similar to consciousness being relevant to both concepts - in the moment of conceptualization - without consciousness (as the principle of observing) - in that moment of conceptualization - being able to be captured in one of both concepts.
PR!

Thanks. Since you've highlighted 'outside space and time', to fast forward, since no one knows where Singularity came from, to say that something could be outside space and time has relevance. As such, 'a Will' of some kind that encodes biological life systems for self-organization/propagation, and associated information processing (conscious life) corresponds with things like quality/Qualia. And most of which are the meta-physical aspects of many life forms. in other words, we just don't have matter; we have have mind and matter.

I remain intrigued with how the observer effect and non-locality may impact other concepts of Being...
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
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