Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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JackDaydream
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Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by JackDaydream »

The mind and body problem is complex. Science has been a way of understanding complexity and chaos. The distinction between mind and matter is central to this, especially in understanding the spark of consciousness. In 'The Physics of Transfigured Light: The Imaginal Realm and the Hermenitic Foundations of Light', Leon Marvell (2016) looks at the nature of the imaginary, including Western perspectives on reasoning, tracing the importance of esoteric ideas in the area between philosophy and science. In particular, he is looking at the way in which the invisible and visible is understood in metaphysically and in science. Underlying many debates about the nature of consciousness are questions, including to what extent can mind and matter be differentiated? Is information physical?

One important movement in addressing these questions is panpsychism. Leon Marvell states,
'The pansychic hypothesis is that part of the "cosmic" domain that imagines each point on an an infinite continuum of bodies ( the idea of the infinite being one of the infinite being of the psychic moment". In this understanding, Being is constituted by infinite divisions, all of which divisions resolve into the harmonious order (kosmos) of things.'

In some ways, the perspective of Marvell, which draws upon ideas of the invisible back to Platonism and NeoPlatonism, may be rather abstract. However, this is in contrast to materialistic perspectives, such as that of Daniel Dennett, Panspychism may be a bridge between idealism and materialism. However, what are the full implications for understanding consciousness and to what extent does it solve or complicate further the mystery of consciousness?
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The Beast
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by The Beast »

The vector representation of photon and gluons have the significance of force carriers. Quarks and gluons are the smaller known particles to have charge. They build protons and neutrons. The primordial Universal soup was a quark gluon plasma. In the soup of gluons and quarks, fields happen created by the characteristics of the interactions.
In a field with operators like polarized photons, the probabilities are as high as the calculations. In Eternity it can be represented as possible then it is real as virtual or real.
“This which exist always existed”
Conditions that allowed the primordial plasma of quarks and gluons is one of virtual (invisible) fields and virtual forces. Operators acting in the quark gluon plasma are responsible for the spectrum that at the boundary produced light emitting matter. A field containing operators like polarized photons might have an unknown number of probabilities in Eternity.
So, there is a field of unknown and known operators. A hypothesis for this field is that a vector F=q (E +v * B) acting in a spectrum with other vectors like Jones vectors and whatever emerged from the Maxwell equations resulted in a virtual to real fluorescent matter. This matter’s emitting light with a lower energy could produce a field with a virtual operator or virtual operators. The manifold is changeable and responds to energy needs and time boundaries. Preciously, I formulated a Calabi-Yau manifold and skyrmion field with virtual and non-virtual dimensions as a prototype consciousness.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: August 14th, 2022, 12:10 pm The vector representation of photon and gluons have the significance of force carriers. Quarks and gluons are the smaller known particles to have charge. They build protons and neutrons. The primordial Universal soup was a quark gluon plasma. In the soup of gluons and quarks, fields happen created by the characteristics of the interactions.
In a field with operators like polarized photons, the probabilities are as high as the calculations. In Eternity it can be represented as possible then it is real as virtual or real.
“This which exist always existed”
Conditions that allowed the primordial plasma of quarks and gluons is one of virtual (invisible) fields and virtual forces. Operators acting in the quark gluon plasma are responsible for the spectrum that at the boundary produced light emitting matter. A field containing operators like polarized photons might have an unknown number of probabilities in Eternity.
So, there is a field of unknown and known operators. A hypothesis for this field is that a vector F=q (E +v * B) acting in a spectrum with other vectors like Jones vectors and whatever emerged from the Maxwell equations resulted in a virtual to real fluorescent matter. This matter’s emitting light with a lower energy could produce a field with a virtual operator or virtual operators. The manifold is changeable and responds to energy needs and time boundaries. Preciously, I formulated a Calabi-Yau manifold and skyrmion field with virtual and non-virtual dimensions as a prototype consciousness.
It sounds like you know about the physics of matter. I am inclined to see it more symbolically, like the Gnostic demuirge, as the source of matter. Similarly, as Jung suggested, the alchemical processes are a representation of transformations, especially in the transmutations of matter and mind. Perhaps, the two are the fundamental binary of opposites in the emergent nature and evolution of consciousness. It may also be the underlying dialectical process which Hegel speaks of as the spirit underlying history as the evolution in the form of culture.
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The Beast
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by The Beast »

Well Jack. The description of the physical transformation via fields is information. I am never going to do the work and my preference (as well) is to speak of transformations that might be physical and mental (psyche) via philosophy and alchemy. I might have to refresh on Hegel, but it is a bit much. I am also researching the wondrous definitions of space and time from the philosophical and alchemical authors. Starting with pure intuitions (they do not transform) of time and space much could be said. I Imagine reality flowing in our field as thousands of one second. I don’t think we could observe anything faster than this. In the particle world motion or spin from point A to point B might be faster than our reality POV. However, the field transforms into our field and dimensions as measurements of time and space are preserved however larger… “As above so is below”. Eternal resides outside of time. The process from Eternal to the pure intuitions is metaphysical. It could be said that Eternity is raining time and space and in consciousness they are received as pure intuitions.
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The Beast
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by The Beast »

The term phenomenology made a popular entrance with Kant. It is said that H. Lambert a mathematician had it in their mutual correspondence. In one of his earlier works, Hegel coined the ‘phenomenology of the Spirit’ 1806. Jung, among other post-Kantian authors used the term as ‘the phenomenology of the self’. As Jung reasoned the archetypes from the psyche’s symbolic evolution perspective, Hegel had a teleological account of history as the development of spirit. Jung situates his phenomenology within the four archetypes. Spirit, trickster, mother, rebirth. Hegel proposes absolute spirit and absolute knowledge transforming into a subjective life or ethical substance by the ethical order or objective cultural practices. In Philosophy of absolute spirit. Hegel 1993 from copious lectures and notes Hegel states that “it is an active creative element” and “Our standpoint is the cognition of the spirit, the knowledge of the idea as spirit, as absolute spirit, which as absolute opposes itself to another spirit, to the finite spirit, to recognize that absolute spirit can be for it is this finite spirit’s principle and vocation”
Hegel suffered criticism from Russell and GE Moore and others based on Frege and Peano analytical philosophy to which Hegel said: “understanding and reason are two different things “In the 1960’s a well-known work of Klaus Hartmann had a non-metaphysical interpretation of Hegel.
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by Gertie »

The idea that information is anything more than a way of describing actual stuff and processes puzzles me.

''The sky is blue'' - without the sky existing there is nothing to describe. ''Triangles have 3 sides'' - without triangles or representations of triangles existing there are no sides to measure.

I don't see how information can exist independently, as a thing in itself, if it's a way of describing actual things in themselves.

We're used to talking about information processing, and it's an abstract description of what brains do. But what exists independantly of how we describe it is eg photons hitting a retina causing a web of neural interactions which somehow end up with the experience of seeing a red apple. We can remove the abstract informational description of that process, and it will still happen just the same. Information can't do or cause anything, if it's just a description.

Now it might be our physicalist model of photons hitting eyeballs isn't much like the actual reality of what's really going, and information has some other role or quality at a more fundamental level or something, but then that would need justifying by some explanatory context I think.
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The Beast
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by The Beast »

Really?
The subjective truth works with free will. Part of being human is to deal with the spectrum of changing emotions like dealing with sickness or mortality. Least of all, I don’t want anyone feeling like Lightyear when he found out he was a toy.
Obviously. God qua absolute spirit as the ultimate reality through pure thought processes is (if anything) a more objective position. I “see” free will in your less convincing argument of physicalism. I will be open to a deep insight as to why.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: August 16th, 2022, 9:07 am The term phenomenology made a popular entrance with Kant. It is said that H. Lambert a mathematician had it in their mutual correspondence. In one of his earlier works, Hegel coined the ‘phenomenology of the Spirit’ 1806. Jung, among other post-Kantian authors used the term as ‘the phenomenology of the self’. As Jung reasoned the archetypes from the psyche’s symbolic evolution perspective, Hegel had a teleological account of history as the development of spirit. Jung situates his phenomenology within the four archetypes. Spirit, trickster, mother, rebirth. Hegel proposes absolute spirit and absolute knowledge transforming into a subjective life or ethical substance by the ethical order or objective cultural practices. In Philosophy of absolute spirit. Hegel 1993 from copious lectures and notes Hegel states that “it is an active creative element” and “Our standpoint is the cognition of the spirit, the knowledge of the idea as spirit, as absolute spirit, which as absolute opposes itself to another spirit, to the finite spirit, to recognize that absolute spirit can be for it is this finite spirit’s principle and vocation”
Hegel suffered criticism from Russell and GE Moore and others based on Frege and Peano analytical philosophy to which Hegel said: “understanding and reason are two different things “In the 1960’s a well-known work of Klaus Hartmann had a non-metaphysical interpretation of Hegel.
I am not sure why so many people dismiss Hegel. I have read parts of his various writings and find them worth reading. Also, Jung is often dismissed and, as you know, I refer to him a lot. I don't know where I would have got to in my thinking without his writings, especially during adolescence and, later, when I was questioning religious ideas.

I wonder if people find thinkers like Jung and Hegel a bit abstract or obscure. It may be about preference for clear concrete ideas, especially in relation to idealism or materialism. These writers possibly try to override this dichotomy. Even Kant, who is seen as 'metaphysical' did seek to incorporate reason and empiricism.

Quantum physics, especially the ideas of David Bohm, seem to see the source beyond matter, with the implicate order being an enfoldment beyond the explicate world of the explicate, seen aspects, of the explicate order. Bohm's ideas do correspond with that of Plato's understanding of forms. Such a viewpoint can be viewed as a form of idealism but, not necessarily, because it can be considered as being two aspects of the nature of reality rather than about mind or matter being primary, because the two may develop in a conjoined way in the process of manifestation.
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by JackDaydream »

Gertie wrote: August 16th, 2022, 11:51 am The idea that information is anything more than a way of describing actual stuff and processes puzzles me.

''The sky is blue'' - without the sky existing there is nothing to describe. ''Triangles have 3 sides'' - without triangles or representations of triangles existing there are no sides to measure.

I don't see how information can exist independently, as a thing in itself, if it's a way of describing actual things in themselves.

We're used to talking about information processing, and it's an abstract description of what brains do. But what exists independantly of how we describe it is eg photons hitting a retina causing a web of neural interactions which somehow end up with the experience of seeing a red apple. We can remove the abstract informational description of that process, and it will still happen just the same. Information can't do or cause anything, if it's just a description.

Now it might be our physicalist model of photons hitting eyeballs isn't much like the actual reality of what's really going, and information has some other role or quality at a more fundamental level or something, but then that would need justifying by some explanatory context I think.
The way in which I was thinking of information would include basic structures, like the patterns of DNA and chromosomes, even memory and the nervous system.
It also includes the transmission of information, like Wifi and music being stored on records and CDs. It does come down to a physical basis but the actual results are so much greater than the physical basis. It probably is related to processes which go beyond physics. Even in biology the nature of information is complex and one process which may be relevant is what Rupert Sheldrake has described as morphic resonance, involving morphic fields which seem to be patterns which are formed as some underlying memory in nature itself.
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

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I am inclined to see it more symbolically, like the Gnostic demiurge,
Concerning Eternity outside of time.
In the words of a classic the ‘Tao Te Ching’: “The Way (Tao) that can be expressed in words is not the Eternal way; a name that can be uttered is not the Eternal name”
Altered perceptions of the mind in intuitions of space and time have been reported. I know someone telling of an out of body experience while in a trance from acid and music.
Since humans live with the intuitions of time and space, Eternity in a concept represented by ∞. But it is not a concept in all systems of logic. Concepts in all systems of logic might represent objects and properties and while values of truth might be absolute in a definition, objects from the intuition of time do not exist outside of time. Therefore, if I write this now, two minutes from now the I, although me, has suffered the change of time. Is there any truth that can be instantiated at (t); or is it that the truth instantiated is from (t) to (t1) in a changing subject/object?
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

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The Beast wrote: August 19th, 2022, 10:32 am
I am inclined to see it more symbolically, like the Gnostic demiurge,
Concerning Eternity outside of time.
In the words of a classic the ‘Tao Te Ching’: “The Way (Tao) that can be expressed in words is not the Eternal way; a name that can be uttered is not the Eternal name”
Altered perceptions of the mind in intuitions of space and time have been reported. I know someone telling of an out of body experience while in a trance from acid and music.
Since humans live with the intuitions of time and space, Eternity in a concept represented by ∞. But it is not a concept in all systems of logic. Concepts in all systems of logic might represent objects and properties and while values of truth might be absolute in a definition, objects from the intuition of time do not exist outside of time. Therefore, if I write this now, two minutes from now the I, although me, has suffered the change of time. Is there any truth that can be instantiated at (t); or is it that the truth instantiated is from (t) to (t1) in a changing subject/object?
We are individuals. The process of individuation in space and time has the pouring of the spirit into the archetypes. From massless particles in space to mass in the spacetime continuum. I am surely considering other methods to the process of individuation as sages from all parts try to liberate the mind from the delusions conjured by the senses. As we turn the POV to the mysteries and ponder on the power which nourishes the psyche a vision emerges. As a daze into the crossing point of the Eternal Way and in the flux, the daze found the Mother of Heaven and Earth and of many names, with the power that creates and nourishes by achieving harmony among the nature-spirits; majestic beasts; foxes able to assume the form of lovely youth in all exotic beings. Who said they don’t exist, and that Nixies is just a name from losing time in our search. In this and in how to become good philosophers what can the Mother teach in striving for a pleasant life and in withdrawing from the world so to learn the crossing and breathe the purest Eternal Way. The learning and focus of the timeless massless energies.
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by JackDaydream »

The Beast wrote: August 19th, 2022, 10:32 am
I am inclined to see it more symbolically, like the Gnostic demiurge,
Concerning Eternity outside of time.
In the words of a classic the ‘Tao Te Ching’: “The Way (Tao) that can be expressed in words is not the Eternal way; a name that can be uttered is not the Eternal name”
Altered perceptions of the mind in intuitions of space and time have been reported. I know someone telling of an out of body experience while in a trance from acid and music.
Since humans live with the intuitions of time and space, Eternity in a concept represented by ∞. But it is not a concept in all systems of logic. Concepts in all systems of logic might represent objects and properties and while values of truth might be absolute in a definition, objects from the intuition of time do not exist outside of time. Therefore, if I write this now, two minutes from now the I, although me, has suffered the change of time. Is there any truth that can be instantiated at (t); or is it that the truth instantiated is from (t) to (t1) in a changing subject/object?
I am glad that you are contributing to the this thread. The nature of subjective experience is often looked at as an aspect of neuroscience, which leaves out the role of consciousness, which is central to human identity and life. A large aspect of this involves the idea of soul.or spirit from the picture. The idea of the self is often used but it may not go far enough in describing or explaining the processes of human development.

All such ideas, including the self, soul and spirit are a little vague but they seem to be slightly different aspects of the inner life of a human being, or aspects of human consciousness. That is what would make it hard to create life forms artificially, even if sentience was created. That is because the idea of soul or spirit may be the invisible life source, possibly relating to the astral realm or dimensions beyond the physical. However, the astral body can be seen in kirlian photography. I had my aura photographed once and it came out as a mixture of red, orange and pinks. The chakras were showing and there were a few dark areas including the head area and this may be because my eyes are my weakest areas.

As far as the earth is concerned it may be an energy source as some kind of living body. This is expressed in James Lovelock's concept of Gaia.
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The Beast
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by The Beast »

The mind and body problem is complex. Science has been a way of understanding complexity and chaos. The distinction between mind and matter is central to this, especially in understanding the spark of consciousness.
Well yes. Massless particles more than 50 had been discovered. Forms of energy in space but not in time since they have no mass. Since we have mass, particles are invisible to us. To put it in other words, particles do not exist in our concept of existence, but they do. A hypothesis based on what it doesn’t exist (mass) but do is what Metaphysics hypothesized.
I am glad that you are contributing to the this thread. The nature of subjective experience is often looked at as an aspect of neuroscience, which leaves out the role of consciousness, which is central to human identity and life. A large aspect of this involves the idea of soul.or spirit from the picture. The idea of the self is often used but it may not go far enough in describing or explaining the processes of human development.
Just thinking (hypothesizing) how particles and consciousness relate as energies. Neuro networks may provide the infrastructure to transform the energies in the dance called consciousness.
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

Post by Samana Johann »

JackDaydream wrote: August 10th, 2022, 3:13 pm However, what are the full implications for understanding consciousness and to what extent does it solve or complicate further the mystery of consciousness?
To understand the pattern of mind and it's objects it's required to let go of matter (sensuality) first. No way when it stucks steady in sensuality and produces realities around it.

To get it understood in detail requires the proper way of practice, after being instructed proper, good householder. If already willing to let go of matter, and possessing the required freedom (merits), here's the technique to make it known directly from oneself.
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The Beast
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Re: Panpsychism, Consciousness and Information: To What Extent Can Mind and Matter be Differentiated?

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To understand the pattern of mind and it's objects it's required to let go of matter (sensuality) first. No way when it stucks steady in sensuality and produces realities around it.
"perceiving realities"
It is Buddhism in the philosophy of mind constructing an avenue of communication. I do understand that Buddhism has a non-logical approach to the phenomenological or process of thinking and therefore similar to Physicalism that could be paraphrased to physicalist definitions.
I have four questions.
1.- Is “Placeholder” the body of a doctrine; an instructional manual; a philosophical thesis?
2- What is emptiness as it relates to knowledge? Or is it a sensation?
3- What is believing?
4.- Empty placeholder (reserved question)
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