Let's talk consciousness.

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Sy Borg »

Agent Smyth wrote: March 27th, 2023, 9:26 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:18 pmI am not sure that life and consciousness are separate either. While it is possible to be vibrantly alive and be only capable of basic sensing, and it's possible to be almost dead with a highly active mind, I see the phenomena of life and consciousness as essentially one and the same.

Meanwhile, the kind of consciousness that humans value in themselves and other humans is more the product of conditioning than intrinsic. If you lots in the jungle as an infant and raised by chimps, what aspects of a grown Agent Smith would be recognisable as the person writing on this forum? Not much. Most of what we value about our consciousness are hand-me-downs from family and society. A raw sense of being without such cognition is not valued, and is referred to as a vegetative state. Simple animal consciousness, too, is not valued, except in pets and other protected animals.

So we have the raw phenomenon of consciousness which, frankly, hardly anyone cares about, and you have a distinctly human mentality that has been conditioned from birth. Part of the problem of consciousness is that an essentially social phenomenon is treated as a physics problem.
To my reckoning science has an interesting mix of conceptual schema that's reminiscent of the proverbial dog in the manger, loosely speaking that is. I'm not up-to-date with current (neuro)science but at first blush it seems as though consciousness is the neglected child of the field so to speak.
It depends on what you mean as "consciousness". There has long been a reluctance to deal with subjectivity because science is about objectivity, hence the occasional boffin claiming that consciousness is a meaningless by-product of biology. Neuroscience is a relatively young field but it does attempt to unravel the mysteries of subjective experience.

As said earlier, consciousness of the type that we value and discuss is a social phenomenon. Having science tease it out is akin to having scientists analyse art to see why it works. They can do it, sure, but the tools they use are not ideal for the task. We are dealing with the intersection of neuroplasticity and cultural conditioning. A mad scientist who was committed enough could condition infants to be mentally anything - what if they are mainly exposed to mice? They will be different to mainly exposed to dogs or chimps. Humans don't have to grow up to think like humans but they do through cultural conditioning.
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Ranvier »

Sy Borg

"As said earlier, consciousness of the type that we value and discuss is a social phenomenon. Having science tease it out is akin to having scientists analyse art to see why it works. They can do it, sure, but the tools they use are not ideal for the task. We are dealing with the intersection of neuroplasticity and cultural conditioning. A mad scientist who was committed enough could condition infants to be mentally anything - what if they are mainly exposed to mice? They will be different to mainly exposed to dogs or chimps. Humans don't have to grow up to think like humans but they do through cultural conditioning".


I don't think so. We're currently undergoing the greatest social experiment in human hystory. Yes, many weak minds will succumb to the psychological conditioning (abhorrent practice) but for many, if not most, the human "reason" will prevail. To make an analogy with computer programing, the software will have great impact on what can be done but ultimately it doesn't determine what will be done using that software.
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Agent Smyth
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Agent Smyth »

Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 12:20 am
Agent Smyth wrote: March 27th, 2023, 9:26 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:18 pmI am not sure that life and consciousness are separate either. While it is possible to be vibrantly alive and be only capable of basic sensing, and it's possible to be almost dead with a highly active mind, I see the phenomena of life and consciousness as essentially one and the same.

Meanwhile, the kind of consciousness that humans value in themselves and other humans is more the product of conditioning than intrinsic. If you lots in the jungle as an infant and raised by chimps, what aspects of a grown Agent Smith would be recognisable as the person writing on this forum? Not much. Most of what we value about our consciousness are hand-me-downs from family and society. A raw sense of being without such cognition is not valued, and is referred to as a vegetative state. Simple animal consciousness, too, is not valued, except in pets and other protected animals.

So we have the raw phenomenon of consciousness which, frankly, hardly anyone cares about, and you have a distinctly human mentality that has been conditioned from birth. Part of the problem of consciousness is that an essentially social phenomenon is treated as a physics problem.
To my reckoning science has an interesting mix of conceptual schema that's reminiscent of the proverbial dog in the manger, loosely speaking that is. I'm not up-to-date with current (neuro)science but at first blush it seems as though consciousness is the neglected child of the field so to speak.
It depends on what you mean as "consciousness". There has long been a reluctance to deal with subjectivity because science is about objectivity, hence the occasional boffin claiming that consciousness is a meaningless by-product of biology. Neuroscience is a relatively young field but it does attempt to unravel the mysteries of subjective experience.

As said earlier, consciousness of the type that we value and discuss is a social phenomenon. Having science tease it out is akin to having scientists analyse art to see why it works. They can do it, sure, but the tools they use are not ideal for the task. We are dealing with the intersection of neuroplasticity and cultural conditioning. A mad scientist who was committed enough could condition infants to be mentally anything - what if they are mainly exposed to mice? They will be different to mainly exposed to dogs or chimps. Humans don't have to grow up to think like humans but they do through cultural conditioning.
What could consciousness mean? I see a slope, a rather slippery one, for scientists. I do see partial analogs to consciousness, but I'm at a loss in re their nature. The science of mind, as you so correctly pointed out, is in its infancy.
Never send a man to do a machine's job. 8)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Sy Borg »

Agent Smyth wrote: March 28th, 2023, 7:54 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 12:20 am
Agent Smyth wrote: March 27th, 2023, 9:26 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:18 pmI am not sure that life and consciousness are separate either. While it is possible to be vibrantly alive and be only capable of basic sensing, and it's possible to be almost dead with a highly active mind, I see the phenomena of life and consciousness as essentially one and the same.

Meanwhile, the kind of consciousness that humans value in themselves and other humans is more the product of conditioning than intrinsic. If you lots in the jungle as an infant and raised by chimps, what aspects of a grown Agent Smith would be recognisable as the person writing on this forum? Not much. Most of what we value about our consciousness are hand-me-downs from family and society. A raw sense of being without such cognition is not valued, and is referred to as a vegetative state. Simple animal consciousness, too, is not valued, except in pets and other protected animals.

So we have the raw phenomenon of consciousness which, frankly, hardly anyone cares about, and you have a distinctly human mentality that has been conditioned from birth. Part of the problem of consciousness is that an essentially social phenomenon is treated as a physics problem.
To my reckoning science has an interesting mix of conceptual schema that's reminiscent of the proverbial dog in the manger, loosely speaking that is. I'm not up-to-date with current (neuro)science but at first blush it seems as though consciousness is the neglected child of the field so to speak.
It depends on what you mean as "consciousness". There has long been a reluctance to deal with subjectivity because science is about objectivity, hence the occasional boffin claiming that consciousness is a meaningless by-product of biology. Neuroscience is a relatively young field but it does attempt to unravel the mysteries of subjective experience.

As said earlier, consciousness of the type that we value and discuss is a social phenomenon. Having science tease it out is akin to having scientists analyse art to see why it works. They can do it, sure, but the tools they use are not ideal for the task. We are dealing with the intersection of neuroplasticity and cultural conditioning. A mad scientist who was committed enough could condition infants to be mentally anything - what if they are mainly exposed to mice? They will be different to mainly exposed to dogs or chimps. Humans don't have to grow up to think like humans but they do through cultural conditioning.
What could consciousness mean? I see a slope, a rather slippery one, for scientists. I do see partial analogs to consciousness, but I'm at a loss in re their nature. The science of mind, as you so correctly pointed out, is in its infancy.
Which analogies for consciousness come to mind for you? I love the power of analogy. The phenomena closest to basic consciousness are digestion and reflexes.

You have a digestive system, you feed in energy in certain formats and it converts them to energy. You have a nervous system, you feed in a small amount of energy and a lot of information (electrical impulses responding to environment) and you have something that controls the energy flows. The engine and the helm, so to speak.

Consciousness is rather like a sea. Both minds and seas are singular (indivisible, as they say) entities fed my multiple tributary streams. Raw consciousness consists of many toggling suites of reflexes. A major reflex action like fight-or-flight will consist of many small reflexes - increased heart rate, increase rate of breathing, dilated pupils, and so on.
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Agent Smyth
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Agent Smyth »

Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 4:30 pm
Agent Smyth wrote: March 28th, 2023, 7:54 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 12:20 am
Agent Smyth wrote: March 27th, 2023, 9:26 pm

To my reckoning science has an interesting mix of conceptual schema that's reminiscent of the proverbial dog in the manger, loosely speaking that is. I'm not up-to-date with current (neuro)science but at first blush it seems as though consciousness is the neglected child of the field so to speak.
It depends on what you mean as "consciousness". There has long been a reluctance to deal with subjectivity because science is about objectivity, hence the occasional boffin claiming that consciousness is a meaningless by-product of biology. Neuroscience is a relatively young field but it does attempt to unravel the mysteries of subjective experience.

As said earlier, consciousness of the type that we value and discuss is a social phenomenon. Having science tease it out is akin to having scientists analyse art to see why it works. They can do it, sure, but the tools they use are not ideal for the task. We are dealing with the intersection of neuroplasticity and cultural conditioning. A mad scientist who was committed enough could condition infants to be mentally anything - what if they are mainly exposed to mice? They will be different to mainly exposed to dogs or chimps. Humans don't have to grow up to think like humans but they do through cultural conditioning.
What could consciousness mean? I see a slope, a rather slippery one, for scientists. I do see partial analogs to consciousness, but I'm at a loss in re their nature. The science of mind, as you so correctly pointed out, is in its infancy.
Which analogies for consciousness come to mind for you? I love the power of analogy. The phenomena closest to basic consciousness are digestion and reflexes.

You have a digestive system, you feed in energy in certain formats and it converts them to energy. You have a nervous system, you feed in a small amount of energy and a lot of information (electrical impulses responding to environment) and you have something that controls the energy flows. The engine and the helm, so to speak.

Consciousness is rather like a sea. Both minds and seas are singular (indivisible, as they say) entities fed my multiple tributary streams. Raw consciousness consists of many toggling suites of reflexes. A major reflex action like fight-or-flight will consist of many small reflexes - increased heart rate, increase rate of breathing, dilated pupils, and so on.
I'm not sure, but it'd be interesting to see how philosophers/scientists, dedicated to the understanding of mind, approach the subject. Do they start with a few basic statements about the mind and then go on from there?
Never send a man to do a machine's job. 8)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Sy Borg »

Agent Smyth wrote: March 29th, 2023, 9:26 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 4:30 pm
Agent Smyth wrote: March 28th, 2023, 7:54 am
Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 12:20 am

It depends on what you mean as "consciousness". There has long been a reluctance to deal with subjectivity because science is about objectivity, hence the occasional boffin claiming that consciousness is a meaningless by-product of biology. Neuroscience is a relatively young field but it does attempt to unravel the mysteries of subjective experience.

As said earlier, consciousness of the type that we value and discuss is a social phenomenon. Having science tease it out is akin to having scientists analyse art to see why it works. They can do it, sure, but the tools they use are not ideal for the task. We are dealing with the intersection of neuroplasticity and cultural conditioning. A mad scientist who was committed enough could condition infants to be mentally anything - what if they are mainly exposed to mice? They will be different to mainly exposed to dogs or chimps. Humans don't have to grow up to think like humans but they do through cultural conditioning.
What could consciousness mean? I see a slope, a rather slippery one, for scientists. I do see partial analogs to consciousness, but I'm at a loss in re their nature. The science of mind, as you so correctly pointed out, is in its infancy.
Which analogies for consciousness come to mind for you? I love the power of analogy. The phenomena closest to basic consciousness are digestion and reflexes.

You have a digestive system, you feed in energy in certain formats and it converts them to energy. You have a nervous system, you feed in a small amount of energy and a lot of information (electrical impulses responding to environment) and you have something that controls the energy flows. The engine and the helm, so to speak.

Consciousness is rather like a sea. Both minds and seas are singular (indivisible, as they say) entities fed my multiple tributary streams. Raw consciousness consists of many toggling suites of reflexes. A major reflex action like fight-or-flight will consist of many small reflexes - increased heart rate, increase rate of breathing, dilated pupils, and so on.
I'm not sure, but it'd be interesting to see how philosophers/scientists, dedicated to the understanding of mind, approach the subject. Do they start with a few basic statements about the mind and then go on from there?
You said: 'I do see partial analogs to consciousness ... '

To which I replied: 'Which analogies for consciousness come to mind for you?'

You replied: 'I'm not sure ...'

So your initial statement that you see partial analogues to consciousness was false?

Whatever, we already know how professional observers approach the subject. They produce the material that we analyse or extrapolate from on the forum. IMO creativity is an important aspect of philosophy. One must use the information provided by experts and use that as a (soft) boundary for one's considerations. Otherwise it's just regurgitation.

One of the issues is that many people think that consciousness is special, that it is unlike any other phenomenon. I don't think that is true. As mentioned above, reflexes and digestion have much in common with consciousness in a number of respects.

This becomes more clear when you parse phenomenal consciousness, as observed in simple animals, from access consciousness, the conditioned and inherited aspects of consciousness that humans value. A person who is mainly capable of only phenomenal consciousness would be seen as severely disabled, unable to function in human society.
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Agent Smyth
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Agent Smyth »

Sy Borg wrote: March 30th, 2023, 4:15 pm
Agent Smyth wrote: March 29th, 2023, 9:26 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 4:30 pm
Agent Smyth wrote: March 28th, 2023, 7:54 am

What could consciousness mean? I see a slope, a rather slippery one, for scientists. I do see partial analogs to consciousness, but I'm at a loss in re their nature. The science of mind, as you so correctly pointed out, is in its infancy.
Which analogies for consciousness come to mind for you? I love the power of analogy. The phenomena closest to basic consciousness are digestion and reflexes.

You have a digestive system, you feed in energy in certain formats and it converts them to energy. You have a nervous system, you feed in a small amount of energy and a lot of information (electrical impulses responding to environment) and you have something that controls the energy flows. The engine and the helm, so to speak.

Consciousness is rather like a sea. Both minds and seas are singular (indivisible, as they say) entities fed my multiple tributary streams. Raw consciousness consists of many toggling suites of reflexes. A major reflex action like fight-or-flight will consist of many small reflexes - increased heart rate, increase rate of breathing, dilated pupils, and so on.
I'm not sure, but it'd be interesting to see how philosophers/scientists, dedicated to the understanding of mind, approach the subject. Do they start with a few basic statements about the mind and then go on from there?
You said: 'I do see partial analogs to consciousness ... '

To which I replied: 'Which analogies for consciousness come to mind for you?'

You replied: 'I'm not sure ...'

So your initial statement that you see partial analogues to consciousness was false?

Whatever, we already know how professional observers approach the subject. They produce the material that we analyse or extrapolate from on the forum. IMO creativity is an important aspect of philosophy. One must use the information provided by experts and use that as a (soft) boundary for one's considerations. Otherwise it's just regurgitation.

One of the issues is that many people think that consciousness is special, that it is unlike any other phenomenon. I don't think that is true. As mentioned above, reflexes and digestion have much in common with consciousness in a number of respects.

This becomes more clear when you parse phenomenal consciousness, as observed in simple animals, from access consciousness, the conditioned and inherited aspects of consciousness that humans value. A person who is mainly capable of only phenomenal consciousness would be seen as severely disabled, unable to function in human society.
Well, I suppose I don't have to apologize for contradicting myself. Gracias for the reveal. That cleared up I find your comment most intriguing, but my first reaction is to say we're getting mixed up between consciousness and something else, something I can't quite put my finger on at the moment. Then there's the feeling I have that you seem to be on the right track. Didn't realize how much progress has been made in the field although a case can be made that we're just looking at old ideas dressed in new terms.
Never send a man to do a machine's job. 8)
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Sy Borg
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Sy Borg »

Agent Smyth wrote: March 30th, 2023, 9:04 pm... my first reaction is to say we're getting mixed up between consciousness and something else, something I can't quite put my finger on at the moment.
Is that "we" as in us two, or "we" as in "we humans"?

When people on the forum speak about consciousness, I find they they are usually speaking about distinctly human consciousness rather than consciousness per se.
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Belindi »

Sy Borg wrote: March 28th, 2023, 12:20 am
Agent Smyth wrote: March 27th, 2023, 9:26 pm
Sy Borg wrote: March 27th, 2023, 6:18 pmI am not sure that life and consciousness are separate either. While it is possible to be vibrantly alive and be only capable of basic sensing, and it's possible to be almost dead with a highly active mind, I see the phenomena of life and consciousness as essentially one and the same.

Meanwhile, the kind of consciousness that humans value in themselves and other humans is more the product of conditioning than intrinsic. If you lots in the jungle as an infant and raised by chimps, what aspects of a grown Agent Smith would be recognisable as the person writing on this forum? Not much. Most of what we value about our consciousness are hand-me-downs from family and society. A raw sense of being without such cognition is not valued, and is referred to as a vegetative state. Simple animal consciousness, too, is not valued, except in pets and other protected animals.

So we have the raw phenomenon of consciousness which, frankly, hardly anyone cares about, and you have a distinctly human mentality that has been conditioned from birth. Part of the problem of consciousness is that an essentially social phenomenon is treated as a physics problem.
To my reckoning science has an interesting mix of conceptual schema that's reminiscent of the proverbial dog in the manger, loosely speaking that is. I'm not up-to-date with current (neuro)science but at first blush it seems as though consciousness is the neglected child of the field so to speak.
It depends on what you mean as "consciousness". There has long been a reluctance to deal with subjectivity because science is about objectivity, hence the occasional boffin claiming that consciousness is a meaningless by-product of biology. Neuroscience is a relatively young field but it does attempt to unravel the mysteries of subjective experience.

As said earlier, consciousness of the type that we value and discuss is a social phenomenon. Having science tease it out is akin to having scientists analyse art to see why it works. They can do it, sure, but the tools they use are not ideal for the task. We are dealing with the intersection of neuroplasticity and cultural conditioning. A mad scientist who was committed enough could condition infants to be mentally anything - what if they are mainly exposed to mice? They will be different to mainly exposed to dogs or chimps. Humans don't have to grow up to think like humans but they do through cultural conditioning.
The culture may be artificially conditioned (like what Putin is doing) or the culture may be allowed to evolve from real needs of real people via freedom of thought, speech, and assembly.
The latter sort of cultural conditioning depends upon glorification of subjectivity. Subjectivity wanes when we see oppressive measures like illegality of LGBTQ and demotion of women and ethnic groups to lesser status.
Joshua10
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Joshua10 »

Consciousness is related to electromagnetic forces in nature which cannot be cancelled out.

The brain balances these electromagnetic forces using the formula +/-=+/-
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Joshua10 »

You need to relate being "in the moment" (+) and then being "out of the moment" (-) to the science that is causing these experiences.

You cannot relate these experiences to modern day scientific theories because modern day science is based upon a philosophical GUESS
.i.e. +=- and -=+

You need a philosophical CERTAINTY and a corresponding science that adopts this philosophy to be able to explain the experiences within the mind .i.e. +/-=+/-

The + and - are electromagnetic forces within the brain (which do not cancel out) are vibratory BALANCED.

Modern day scientific nonsense theories and the philosophy they are based upon has a lot to answer for because they are doing absolutely nothing for mental health by explaining the psychological workings.
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Joshua10 »

The "in the moment" and "out of the moment" consciousness states are not the places to be.

These states of consciousness are related to VIBRATION.

+/-=+/- philosophy relates to IN/OUT of the moment=IN/OUT of the moment

The STILL state of consciousness is the place to be.
Joshua10
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Joshua10 »

Why would you want to talk about consciousness when generally accepted science thinks that it has all the answers to consciousness even though it admits it knows next to nothing about consciousness?

You cannot talk about consciousness unless you accept that SELF (I am) exists. As this appears to be a step too far for atheists then what is the point?

If you want to talk about consciousness then you have to talk about CONTROL as well and as atheists don't accept that a SELF (I am) exists due to their fundamental belief system guesses then you are wasting you time talking about it.

You clearly can't introduce CONTROL if you don't believe that you exist to introduce that CONTROL.

Hence why generally accepted science knows nothing at all about consciousness and it will remain that way. They have given up on ever understanding it.

It's their "hard problem" and will remain so.
Joshua10
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Joshua10 »

My understanding is that atheism only acknowledges consciousness but has no understanding of it whatsoever and believes we are nothing more than thoughts and emotional responses. You know.....the mantra....."I think, therefore I am"

That's it as far as I can tell.
Joshua10
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Re: Let's talk consciousness.

Post by Joshua10 »

Consciousness is different to Awareness.

There is a going within and there is a coming back out again.We know that there is.

If we go inward then the consciousness state changes.If we come back out again then the consciousness state changes again.

The inward and outward consciousness states are different therefore.We know that because we experience them.

We are either AWARE or UNAWARE that they are different.

So AWARENESS and UNAWARENESS (white/black) are different to consciousness.The individual is either aware or unaware of this going within and this coming back out again and the fact that this changes the consciousness state experienced.

Going within and coming back out again involves movement.

It is the SELF (I am) that moves or does the going within and the coming back out again.

We are not consciousness types and we are not awareness or unawareness either.

We are either aware or unaware that we go within and come back out again (knowingly or unknowingly) all the time and this process involves a movement which changes the consciousness state experienced.

You won’t learn this stuff in text books.
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