What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
'Whereas an objective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of no one, a subjective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of someone, an intersubjective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of multiple people' (https://conceptually. org> concepts).
The concepts are a basis for reflection and analysis of human understanding. There is an interplay of these categories and each may be held as being more valuable by different people and at specific times. Objective truth may a goal, while the subjective cannot be avoided because it is the starting point of all experiences. As human beings we compare and contrast our own with other people's knowledge and meanings.
Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
https://conceptually. org > concepts
-
- Posts: 762
- Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
"Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity" are conceptual appearances of conditioned thinking and thinking is a natural capacity. Whether these appearances are true or real, untrue or unreal, or whether they represent truth or reality, falsehood or illusion isn't evident.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
Of course, objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are not truth in themselves, but are modes for examining all ideas. For example, Plato saw the idea of the Forms as objective. Similarly, many see science as being objective, in its empirical validation through evidence based research. Some aspects of experiences, like aesthetic tastes in music and art are usually understood as having a certain amount of subjectivity. The marker of delusions involves awareness of intersubjectivity. For example, if I develop the idea that aliens are living amongst the human population, the ideas and evidence of others' thoughts may lead me to have a rethink. So, I am speaking of the significance of juggling awareness of the ideas of objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity in the evaluation of thinking in all aspects of thinking, ranging from the approach towards science, art, religious experience and all aspects of life, as part of the process of weighing up certainty.stevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:37 am"Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity" are conceptual appearances of conditioned thinking and thinking is a natural capacity. Whether these appearances are true or real, untrue or unreal, or whether they represent truth or reality, falsehood or illusion isn't evident.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
-
- Posts: 439
- Joined: April 11th, 2022, 9:41 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
I am extremely opposed to any reference to the human mind in matters of knowledge.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
If a proposition is (justifiable or) provable from its theoretical context then it is true in all its interpretations. In that case, a computing device must be able to verify the (justifiability or) provability of such proposition. No need for a human mind in this process.
If the statement truly is knowledge, i.e. a justified true belief, there is no need for a human to intervene to verify. A computer can do it too.
If on the other hand, a computer cannot verify the (justification or) proof, then the proposition simply does not satisfy the definition for knowledge.
In other words, subjective statements cannot be knowledge, while the justification for objective statements is ultimately always mechanically verifiable.
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
You say that you are 'opposed to any reference to the human mind in matters of knowledge, but that in itself is coming from your mind in its ability to interpret. Knowledge may not make much sense without awareness and that may be the limits of computer knowledge. When I am listening to CDs my phone has the ability to recognize the songs being played, even if they are from an obscure rock or indie band. However, the computer lacks the subjective connection to appreciate and make emotional links. That is dependent on self awareness. The question may be does knowledge have any validity if it is mere abstraction, independent of the experiential aspect of knowing?heracleitos wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:57 amI am extremely opposed to any reference to the human mind in matters of knowledge.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
If a proposition is (justifiable or) provable from its theoretical context then it is true in all its interpretations. In that case, a computing device must be able to verify the (justifiability or) provability of such proposition. No need for a human mind in this process.
If the statement truly is knowledge, i.e. a justified true belief, there is no need for a human to intervene to verify. A computer can do it too.
If on the other hand, a computer cannot verify the (justification or) proof, then the proposition simply does not satisfy the definition for knowledge.
In other words, subjective statements cannot be knowledge, while the justification for objective statements is ultimately always mechanically verifiable.
-
- Posts: 762
- Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
Ideas are conceptual appearances, too. How should one conceptual appearance be "a mode for examining" another conceptual appearance? And what should "examining an idea" stand for? An idea appears or does not appear, that's all.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:55 amOf course, objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are not truth in themselves, but are modes for examining all ideas.stevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:37 am"Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity" are conceptual appearances of conditioned thinking and thinking is a natural capacity. Whether these appearances are true or real, untrue or unreal, or whether they represent truth or reality, falsehood or illusion isn't evident.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
-
- Posts: 439
- Joined: April 11th, 2022, 9:41 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
A program can turn expressions in formal language into syntax trees, and evaluate them, i.e. interpret them. There is no need for a human mind to verify a two-tuple (proposition, proof).JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:08 am You say that you are 'opposed to any reference to the human mind in matters of knowledge, but that in itself is coming from your mind in its ability to interpret.
If the statement is knowledge, it should be possible to express it in a formal language and mechanically verify it.
Computers make decisions all the time. When dealing with objective situations, computers are even preferable. Do you prefer an ATM or a bank teller? I prefer the machine and I somehow suspect that most people doJackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:08 am Knowledge may not make much sense without awareness and that may be the limits of computer knowledge.
Music and its beauty are largely subjective even though there is also an objective music theory. Therefore, beauty of music has no justification. Hence, music only makes sense to the human mind.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:08 am When I am listening to CDs my phone has the ability to recognize the songs being played, even if they are from an obscure rock or indie band. However, the computer lacks the subjective connection to appreciate and make emotional links. That is dependent on self awareness.
All fundamentally subjective opinions are human only. There is no room for computer devices in the process of verifying subjective statements. It is not possible, not useful, and almost surely not even desirable.
But then again, a statement without justification is not knowledge anyway.
Yes, synthetic a priori statements (in Kant's lingo), i.e. pure reason, is not polluted by experience. Modern mathematics is pure reason. Morality can also be organized as pure reason.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:08 am The question may be does knowledge have any validity if it is mere abstraction, independent of the experiential aspect of knowing?
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
stevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:32 amIdeas are conceptual appearances, too. How should one conceptual appearance be "a mode for examining" another conceptual appearance? And what should "examining an idea" stand for? An idea appears or does not appear, that's all.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:55 amOf course, objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are not truth in themselves, but are modes for examining all ideas.stevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:37 am"Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity" are conceptual appearances of conditioned thinking and thinking is a natural capacity. Whether these appearances are true or real, untrue or unreal, or whether they represent truth or reality, falsehood or illusion isn't evident.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
Of course, it may be said that ideas are conceptual appearances, but without them how would be? It would be like being absorbed in mental jelly, with no way of climbing out of the goo of undigested thought and becoming submerged and buried. Surely, ideas are the starting point for rational analysis.
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
At the moment I am reading in the direction of the phenomenological tradition, which is about intentionality and interpretative experience. However, it does seem that human experiences and consciousness is gradually being dismissed as inferior to machines. Would you rather be a machine than a human being? I have plenty of weaknesses but would prefer to be a human being, because deep down I see it as a source of creativity and insight and, perhaps, even suffering and self criticism has value in the reflective loops of consciousnessstevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:32 amIdeas are conceptual appearances, too. How should one conceptual appearance be "a mode for examining" another conceptual appearance? And what should "examining an idea" stand for? An idea appears or does not appear, that's all.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:55 amOf course, objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are not truth in themselves, but are modes for examining all ideas.stevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:37 am"Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity" are conceptual appearances of conditioned thinking and thinking is a natural capacity. Whether these appearances are true or real, untrue or unreal, or whether they represent truth or reality, falsehood or illusion isn't evident.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
I wouldn't wish to read a philosophy book written by a robot, even if it was an extremely clever robot. You mentioned Kant, and a priori reason, which is important However, I am sure that Kant, although recognised as a great philosophers would have been a rather dysfunctional computer. Hiss ideas may have been based on awareness of the struggles of being a human being, as the raw experience of existential dilemmas, including the experience of being embodied, with physiological needs and desires.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
Objectivity is an impediment to serious, considered, thought. By stating that there are mind-independent truths, it encourages us to believe that such truths might be accessible to human beings, but they are not (in most cases). Opinion is really all we have, although there are things we can do to consider those opinions carefully and logically (where appropriate).JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am In thinking about experience and knowledge the three aspects come into play:
'Whereas an objective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of no one, a subjective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of someone, an intersubjective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of multiple people' (https://conceptually. org> concepts).
The concepts are a basis for reflection and analysis of human understanding. There is an interplay of these categories and each may be held as being more valuable by different people and at specific times. Objective truth may a goal, while the subjective cannot be avoided because it is the starting point of all experiences. As human beings we compare and contrast our own with other people's knowledge and meanings.
Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
"Who cares, wins"
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
The aim of objectivity may be a stumbling block in philosophy because it is so absolute. This goes for those who are demanding spiritual absolutes as well as those who are looking for scientific objectivity. I am inclined to think that beyond subjectivity the most which can be achieved is the intersubjective which is a form of feedback for thinking about the logic of ideas in checking out others' approaches. However, that doesn't mean that consensus is the ultimate factor but a means for critical thinking as opposed to the possibility of drifting into a soliptist approach. Dialogue about ideas may be important.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 12th, 2022, 10:21 amObjectivity is an impediment to serious, considered, thought. By stating that there are mind-independent truths, it encourages us to believe that such truths might be accessible to human beings, but they are not (in most cases). Opinion is really all we have, although there are things we can do to consider those opinions carefully and logically (where appropriate).JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 5:24 am In thinking about experience and knowledge the three aspects come into play:
'Whereas an objective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of no one, a subjective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of someone, an intersubjective statement depends for its truth on the mental states of multiple people' (https://conceptually. org> concepts).
The concepts are a basis for reflection and analysis of human understanding. There is an interplay of these categories and each may be held as being more valuable by different people and at specific times. Objective truth may a goal, while the subjective cannot be avoided because it is the starting point of all experiences. As human beings we compare and contrast our own with other people's knowledge and meanings.
Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are categories for approaching and understanding knowledge, as well as aesthetics and ethics. How do you view the relative significance of each in your own philosophy quest?
Gradually, I find that my own thinking is going more in the direction of the phenomenological approach, including the thinking of Husserl and Murleau-Ponty, as well as the ideas of Sartre. So much does come down to the nature of perception and Merlau-Ponty stresses the significance of embodiment as a basis for understanding. However, with phenomenology there is a strong emphasis on the validity of the objective world, even though the basis for that understanding is based on human consciousness itself. People often don't like the idea of most ideas being only opinion and that is probably based on a wish for concrete ideas and truths.
-
- Posts: 762
- Joined: July 19th, 2021, 11:08 am
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
It does not make sense to ask "without them how would be?" because it's simply nature to perceive and to think. Nevertheless percepts and concepts are mere appearances. "rational analysis" is mere conceptual appearance, too.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 4:43 pmstevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:32 amIdeas are conceptual appearances, too. How should one conceptual appearance be "a mode for examining" another conceptual appearance? And what should "examining an idea" stand for? An idea appears or does not appear, that's all.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:55 amOf course, objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are not truth in themselves, but are modes for examining all ideas.stevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:37 am
"Objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity" are conceptual appearances of conditioned thinking and thinking is a natural capacity. Whether these appearances are true or real, untrue or unreal, or whether they represent truth or reality, falsehood or illusion isn't evident.
Of course, it may be said that ideas are conceptual appearances, but without them how would be? It would be like being absorbed in mental jelly, with no way of climbing out of the goo of undigested thought and becoming submerged and buried. Surely, ideas are the starting point for rational analysis.
- JackDaydream
- Posts: 3220
- Joined: July 25th, 2021, 5:16 pm
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
Your point is important but what is interesting is that even though concepts are based on appearances they are the shared basis for understanding, based on language. This gives ideas, ranging from simple descriptions like colours to complex ones, like consciousness to be spoken of as a common form of reference. In this way, the intersubjective does lead to some kind of objectivity. Of course, the nature of appearances is more complicated, because it does involve the issue as to whether that is 'reality', as supposed in the philosophy of realism?stevie wrote: ↑October 13th, 2022, 4:08 amIt does not make sense to ask "without them how would be?" because it's simply nature to perceive and to think. Nevertheless percepts and concepts are mere appearances. "rational analysis" is mere conceptual appearance, too.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 4:43 pmstevie wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 8:32 amIdeas are conceptual appearances, too. How should one conceptual appearance be "a mode for examining" another conceptual appearance? And what should "examining an idea" stand for? An idea appears or does not appear, that's all.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 11th, 2022, 7:55 am
Of course, objectivity, subjectivity and intersubjectivity are not truth in themselves, but are modes for examining all ideas.
Of course, it may be said that ideas are conceptual appearances, but without them how would be? It would be like being absorbed in mental jelly, with no way of climbing out of the goo of undigested thought and becoming submerged and buried. Surely, ideas are the starting point for rational analysis.
- Pattern-chaser
- Premium Member
- Posts: 8268
- Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
- Location: England
Re: What is the Importance of Objectivity, Subjectivity and Intersubjectivity in Understanding?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑October 12th, 2022, 10:21 am Objectivity is an impediment to serious, considered, thought. By stating that there are mind-independent truths, it encourages us to believe that such truths might be accessible to human beings, but they are not (in most cases). Opinion is really all we have, although there are things we can do to consider those opinions carefully and logically (where appropriate).
Yes, that's pretty much what I think too.JackDaydream wrote: ↑October 12th, 2022, 1:56 pm The aim of objectivity may be a stumbling block in philosophy because it is so absolute. This goes for those who are demanding spiritual absolutes as well as those who are looking for scientific objectivity. I am inclined to think that beyond subjectivity the most which can be achieved is the intersubjective which is a form of feedback for thinking about the logic of ideas in checking out others' approaches. However, that doesn't mean that consensus is the ultimate factor but a means for critical thinking...
"Who cares, wins"
2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month
Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023
Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023