The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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dattaswami
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The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by dattaswami »

The knowledge is of two types:

1) Knowledge of God, which means the information about the material with which God is made of, the size and form in which God exists, etc., This is unimaginable as said in the Veda and the Gita. You can arrive at this conclusion even through scientific logic. God is the generator of the space. Space or anything cannot exist before its generation. God exists before the generation of the space. Hence, space cannot exist in God before its generation. When there is no space, there are no spatial dimensions. It means God is beyond space. We can never imagine anything beyond space. Therefore, God is unimaginable.

2) Knowledge given by God for the sake of humanity, which is imaginable and can be subjected to the logical analysis. This does not mean that we have to analyse the knowledge given by God doubting it. But, the knowledge given by God must be also analysed. The reason is that the knowledge given by God is polluted with the knowledge inserted by ignorant and selfish human scholars. This inserted knowledge also appears as if it is the divine knowledge given by God. It is difficult to isolate the divine knowledge from inserted knowledge since both are mixed in the same scripture. It is just like the difficulty in distinguishing the fake note from the genuine note while counting a bundle of currency notes. Hence, the Reserve Bank that published genuine notes has given a procedure to distinguish both these notes.

Similarly, God has given intelligence to us, which is capable of doing logical analysis to distinguish both these types of knowledge. We have to use our intelligence in this context, which is the highest faculty that gives us the right direction. God says in the Veda that intelligence or Buddhi is the driver of the car. Car is the body and senses are the wheels. Steering rod is the mind. The owner of the car is the soul. The safety of the car and owner are totally in the hands of the driver. If the driver is inactive, there is no movement at all. If the driver acts wrongly, the lives of both car and the owner are gone. Therefore, the right direction of the body and the soul totally depends on intelligence or driver only (Buddhimtu Saarathim...). The intelligence does not function due to Tamas. There is no activity at all. If the intelligence functions wrongly due to Rajas or ego, the fate of soul and body are gone. Therefore, the logical analysis is as important as the driver of the car in the journey, whether journey is in worldly way (Pravrutti) or spiritual way (Nivrutti).

Therefore, God remains unimaginable since the first type of knowledge is impossible to us. The Veda also says that scholars try to know about God with the help of the scripture (Tametam Vedaanuvachanena Brahmanaah vividishanti...). Here, the word ‘Vividishanti’ means that they like or attempt to know God. This does not mean that they know God. But, beware, the first type of knowledge also is possible to God because God knows fully about Himself also. Hence, God is called as omniscient (Sarvajna). We talk with reference to ourselves only in this context (Sandarbha), which should never be forgotten. The word ‘Prajnanam’ refers to the second type of knowledge only with reference to us. The same word ‘Prajnanam’ means both types of knowledge with reference to God since God knows about Himself as well as about the knowledge to be given to the humanity for the right direction.








The knowledge given to humanity by God for its welfare based on logical analysis is fully acceptable. Only in one concept, such logical analysis is not applicable and such one concept is about the knowledge of God regarding the substance with which God is made since God is unimaginable. This is the knowledge of God, which is beyond logic as said in the Veda and the Gita (Naishaa tarkena... and Mam tu veda na...). This knowledge of one aspect is called as knowledge of God, which is totally different from several aspects given by God for the humanity, which is called as knowledge given by God. Both types of knowledge should be distinguished from each other and should not be confused for each other.

In that one aspect (Knowledge of God), logic is non-applicable since we cannot know the unimaginable God directly in any way. The only way to know the unimaginable God is to reject every imaginable item (Neti Neti...) and to know that the final remaining unimaginable item is God. We can also say that even this one aspect is based on the logical analysis because the God is unimaginable since He, being the generator of space, cannot have space in Him and is unimaginable since He is beyond space. Thus, the achievement of such knowledge of God is based on the reasoning only. However, the result of the logic is unable to make God imaginable, so we have to agree that logic fails to achieve the knowledge of God.

The whole confusion is that you do not distinguish this knowledge of God from the knowledge given by God. The failure of logic in one aspect (knowledge of God) should not be extended to ninety nine aspects (Knowledge given by God) for the humanity. The knowledge given by God is genuine because it is logical since God never gives illogical and hence meaningless advices. The knowledge given by the false insertions created by fraudulent scholars is not genuine since it is not logical. Hence, you cannot achieve the perfect genuine knowledge given by God without filtering it from such insertions through the process of filtration, which is nothing but logical analysis. Shankara says that the logical analysis (Sadasat Vivekah) separates truth (Sat) given by God from false (Asat) given by false selfish scholars through insertions.
Analysis Should Be applied to All Scriptures of Different Religions

All this analysis should be applied to all the scriptures existing in different religions also in this world. Then only the uniform spiritual knowledge given by one God in all the worldly scriptures comes out solving the differences between religions, which alone establishes the world peace forever. Such unique and uniform knowledge given by the single God through the scriptures of all the religions can alone be called as the sealed scripture or the final word of the scripture.
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

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The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

IMO, no, we can't. How could we humans appreciate true divinity? We are not suitably equipped.
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dattaswami
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by dattaswami »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 14th, 2022, 7:42 am The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

IMO, no, we can't. How could we humans appreciate true divinity? We are not suitably equipped.
One should not blame God that He is unable to make us understand the unimaginable God. So far we are thinking that we are able to understand God after doing lot of penance. This wrong knowledge is removed by God and today, one understood that one can never understand God. This point is also supported by the absence of spatial dimensions of God.

By this, scientists need not think that the unimaginable God beyond space does not exist at all. The genuine miracles, which are unimaginable events, exhibited by unimaginable source called as God, establish the existence of unimaginable entity and it is supported by the point that such unimaginable God is beyond space being the creator of space.
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by Tegularius »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 14th, 2022, 7:42 am The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

IMO, no, we can't. How could we humans appreciate true divinity? We are not suitably equipped.
Perhaps we're not suitably equipped because it was never necessary to know something that can never be known. What's to appreciate in the assumption of an existence whose statistical probability couldn't be lower.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
dattaswami
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by dattaswami »

Tegularius wrote: October 14th, 2022, 5:37 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 14th, 2022, 7:42 am The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

IMO, no, we can't. How could we humans appreciate true divinity? We are not suitably equipped.
Perhaps we're not suitably equipped because it was never necessary to know something that can never be known. What's to appreciate in the assumption of an existence whose statistical probability couldn't be lower.
The unimaginable God is beyond space. Space has three dimensions called length, breadth, and height. Time also is an associated coordinate of space since, without space, time cannot exist. When we take the state of unimaginable God, He is beyond space and time, due to which He is unimaginable. Since He is beyond time, you should not ask Me about the time in which He existed alone without creation. His state, which is beyond the four-dimensional space-time, exists even now and it will exist even in the future. His state continues forever even after the creation of this world and even though He enters the world in the form of Incarnations. It is a wonder how God remains unchanged in spite of incarnating in multiple forms, and it is possible due to His inherent unimaginable nature. This is described in the Gita as “Avibhaktam vibhakteṣu”

First, God created space, which is subtle inert energy. Space and the subtle energy are one and the same since the Veda says in one place that God created space (Ātmana ākāśaḥ...), and in another place, it also says that God created energy (Tat tejo’sṛjata...). Regarding the creation of the other elements and items of creation, a chain of cause and effect is described. It is told that from space arose air, and from air arose fire and so on. God is said to be the direct cause only for space and energy. Since both space and energy are separately said to be the first creations, which were directly created by God, they must be one and the same.

It means that space, even though it appears to be ‘nothing’ is actually ‘something’. It is subtle energy. The visible gross energy is derived from the invisible subtle energy by the reduction in its frequency. We know that visible light is electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation of higher frequencies such as ultraviolet light, x-rays and gamma rays, is invisible to us but it is detected by scientific instruments. The subtle energy has even higher frequencies than x-rays or gamma rays and it is not only invisible to us but it is also undetected by scientific instruments. However, it is not nothing, since it is basically energy.

Just because something is invisible to your eyes or to scientific instruments, it does not mean it is ‘nothing’ or non-existent. It can exist even though it is invisible. Ancient Indian logic speaks about the quantization of space. They described ākāśa paramāṇus, which can roughly be translated as ‘atoms of space’. It clearly indicates that the ancient Indian philosophers knew that space, being one of the five elements, is something. Science also speaks about the bending of space, which suggests that space is something. It is possible that all of creation disappears yet space alone remains. Space has its own independent existence. Space need not disappear along with matter as some scientists think.
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by Tegularius »

dattaswami wrote: October 14th, 2022, 8:15 pm
Tegularius wrote: October 14th, 2022, 5:37 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 14th, 2022, 7:42 am The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

IMO, no, we can't. How could we humans appreciate true divinity? We are not suitably equipped.
Perhaps we're not suitably equipped because it was never necessary to know something that can never be known. What's to appreciate in the assumption of an existence whose statistical probability couldn't be lower.
The unimaginable God is beyond space. Space has three dimensions called length, breadth, and height. Time also is an associated coordinate of space since, without space, time cannot exist. When we take the state of unimaginable God, He is beyond space and time, due to which He is unimaginable. Since He is beyond time, you should not ask Me about the time in which He existed alone without creation. His state, which is beyond the four-dimensional space-time, exists even now and it will exist even in the future. His state continues forever even after the creation of this world and even though He enters the world in the form of Incarnations. It is a wonder how God remains unchanged in spite of incarnating in multiple forms, and it is possible due to His inherent unimaginable nature. This is described in the Gita as “Avibhaktam vibhakteṣu”

First, God created space, which is subtle inert energy. Space and the subtle energy are one and the same since the Veda says in one place that God created space (Ātmana ākāśaḥ...), and in another place, it also says that God created energy (Tat tejo’sṛjata...). Regarding the creation of the other elements and items of creation, a chain of cause and effect is described. It is told that from space arose air, and from air arose fire and so on. God is said to be the direct cause only for space and energy. Since both space and energy are separately said to be the first creations, which were directly created by God, they must be one and the same.

It means that space, even though it appears to be ‘nothing’ is actually ‘something’. It is subtle energy. The visible gross energy is derived from the invisible subtle energy by the reduction in its frequency. We know that visible light is electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation of higher frequencies such as ultraviolet light, x-rays and gamma rays, is invisible to us but it is detected by scientific instruments. The subtle energy has even higher frequencies than x-rays or gamma rays and it is not only invisible to us but it is also undetected by scientific instruments. However, it is not nothing, since it is basically energy.

Just because something is invisible to your eyes or to scientific instruments, it does not mean it is ‘nothing’ or non-existent. It can exist even though it is invisible. Ancient Indian logic speaks about the quantization of space. They described ākāśa paramāṇus, which can roughly be translated as ‘atoms of space’. It clearly indicates that the ancient Indian philosophers knew that space, being one of the five elements, is something. Science also speaks about the bending of space, which suggests that space is something. It is possible that all of creation disappears yet space alone remains. Space has its own independent existence. Space need not disappear along with matter as some scientists think.
If god is so unimaginable, why bother with the idea at all! Most of what you allude to has mostly to do with science which never required god as a cause for anything existing.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
dattaswami
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by dattaswami »

Tegularius wrote: October 14th, 2022, 8:48 pm
dattaswami wrote: October 14th, 2022, 8:15 pm
Tegularius wrote: October 14th, 2022, 5:37 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 14th, 2022, 7:42 am The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

IMO, no, we can't. How could we humans appreciate true divinity? We are not suitably equipped.
Perhaps we're not suitably equipped because it was never necessary to know something that can never be known. What's to appreciate in the assumption of an existence whose statistical probability couldn't be lower.
The unimaginable God is beyond space. Space has three dimensions called length, breadth, and height. Time also is an associated coordinate of space since, without space, time cannot exist. When we take the state of unimaginable God, He is beyond space and time, due to which He is unimaginable. Since He is beyond time, you should not ask Me about the time in which He existed alone without creation. His state, which is beyond the four-dimensional space-time, exists even now and it will exist even in the future. His state continues forever even after the creation of this world and even though He enters the world in the form of Incarnations. It is a wonder how God remains unchanged in spite of incarnating in multiple forms, and it is possible due to His inherent unimaginable nature. This is described in the Gita as “Avibhaktam vibhakteṣu”

First, God created space, which is subtle inert energy. Space and the subtle energy are one and the same since the Veda says in one place that God created space (Ātmana ākāśaḥ...), and in another place, it also says that God created energy (Tat tejo’sṛjata...). Regarding the creation of the other elements and items of creation, a chain of cause and effect is described. It is told that from space arose air, and from air arose fire and so on. God is said to be the direct cause only for space and energy. Since both space and energy are separately said to be the first creations, which were directly created by God, they must be one and the same.

It means that space, even though it appears to be ‘nothing’ is actually ‘something’. It is subtle energy. The visible gross energy is derived from the invisible subtle energy by the reduction in its frequency. We know that visible light is electromagnetic radiation. Electromagnetic radiation of higher frequencies such as ultraviolet light, x-rays and gamma rays, is invisible to us but it is detected by scientific instruments. The subtle energy has even higher frequencies than x-rays or gamma rays and it is not only invisible to us but it is also undetected by scientific instruments. However, it is not nothing, since it is basically energy.

Just because something is invisible to your eyes or to scientific instruments, it does not mean it is ‘nothing’ or non-existent. It can exist even though it is invisible. Ancient Indian logic speaks about the quantization of space. They described ākāśa paramāṇus, which can roughly be translated as ‘atoms of space’. It clearly indicates that the ancient Indian philosophers knew that space, being one of the five elements, is something. Science also speaks about the bending of space, which suggests that space is something. It is possible that all of creation disappears yet space alone remains. Space has its own independent existence. Space need not disappear along with matter as some scientists think.
If god is so unimaginable, why bother with the idea at all! Most of what you allude to has mostly to do with science which never required god as a cause for anything existing.
Everything in this world which has spatial dimensions is imaginable. The spatial dimensions may be very minute but can be recorded through sophisticated instruments and thus the minute entity becomes imaginable. Only an entity not having any spatial dimension becomes unimaginable. Therefore, the reason for the unimaginable nature is only the absence of spatial dimensions. Such an entity must be beyond space.

The third phase is the process of creation of this Universe from such unimaginable entity. There is a logical necessity for the generator of the Universe, which essentially includes space, not to have the spatial dimensions. The logic in the generation processes of worldly items is that the cause exists even in the absence of the effect. The lump of mud exists even if the pot is absent.

The mud is the cause and pot is the effect. The imaginable entity having no spatial dimensions must be the cause of this Universe having spatial dimensions. The reason for this is that in the absence of the Universe, which means the absence of the space, the unimaginable entity having no spatial dimensions can exist. The absence of spatial dimension means the absence of space or Universe only. Therefore, the unimaginable God having no spatial dimensions must be the cause and the Universe or space having spatial dimensions must be the effect.
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by Tegularius »

If something, anything is beyond space and time, as a seeming dimensionless entity, how would you possibly know or presume it even exists? What you describe is not known to exist except as speculation which allows anything and everything to exist without limit.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by dattaswami »

Tegularius wrote: October 14th, 2022, 9:41 pm If something, anything is beyond space and time, as a seeming dimensionless entity, how would you possibly know or presume it even exists? What you describe is not known to exist except as speculation which allows anything and everything to exist without limit.
The absolute truth is the knowledge about the absolute God and that is that God is unimaginable. This is the knowledge given by God to Sun, which is passed to Nachaketa through Saturn through Yama. Yama told that angels and sages have concluded that God cannot be understood in anyway. The practical proof for the existence of unimaginable God, the reason for God is unimaginable and the logic in the creation of universe from the unimaginable God are the three stages in the spiritual knowledge of the absolute unimaginable God. The proof for the unimaginable God is the existence of genuine miracles, which are the unimaginable events.

A true scientist must accept the truth and recognize the existence of real unimaginable events called as miracles, which are clearly different from the magic show. If you fail in the first phase, there is no need of any further discussions with you. In such case you are blind with the bias and prejudice of treating every miracle as magic show. The existence of false does not mean that there is no truth and everything is false. God is giving miraculous powers even to evil people so that the miracles are propagated in large scale. The punishment of misuse of these powers is a different angle. The other angle is propagation of these miracles in large scale so that everybody recognizes the existence of unimaginable entity through these events. Everybody is experiencing these miracles in the life period, but some are not recognizing these miracles in the genuine perspective.

A miracle establishes the existence of unimaginable nature through the imaginable items. Krishna is an imaginable tender boy. The huge mountain is also an imaginable item. The lifting of one object by other object is also imaginable work. With the help of all these imaginable entities, the unimaginable aspect of lifting the huge mountain by a tender small boy is established. This is unimaginable because no tender boy is able to lift a mountain. These miracles establish the source as the unimaginable entity called as God. The conclusion is that the unimaginable God exists in the imaginable tender boy called as Krishna only and not in any other human being.
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: October 14th, 2022, 7:42 am The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

IMO, no, we can't. How could we humans appreciate true divinity? We are not suitably equipped.
dattaswami wrote: October 14th, 2022, 12:02 pm One should not blame God that He is unable to make us understand the unimaginable God.
I am not. I'm not aware of anyone else who is doing this either. 🤔🤔🤔


dattaswami wrote: October 14th, 2022, 12:02 pm So far we are thinking that we are able to understand God after doing lot of penance.
No we are not. Or I am not, anyway. I don't think anyone else thinks this either.



Your comments are simply generalised straw man attacks, and consequently unhelpful.
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by Sandyb_herenow »

IMO - human mind can not truly understand “ God “ but only FELT within.
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Re: The knowledge about God, can we understand Him?

Post by LuckyR »

There are two answers to the question. Since humans invented gods, why wouldn't humans be able to describe every nuance and detail about gods? So: yes. OTOH, despite humans inventing gods, if there actually is an entity that created the universe, there is no way humans can truly "know" the slightest thing about such an entity. So: no.
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