Universe a projection?

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amorphos_ii
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Universe a projection?

Post by amorphos_ii »

Universe a projection?

We know our brains produce the world we see hear and generally experience. As yet we cannot say that experienced things like colour, are physical, and we cannot externally see or hear colour and sounds occurring in our brains. Hear I am just going to go with the idea that ‘mind’ is the thing which produces mental qualia like colour, and it does that based upon sensory information.

So the question; is the universe similarly a projection?

Naturally there is a difference, because the mind which draws the universe is also producing the physical information. Yet the physical and mental relate to and communicate with each other, and I don’t see how they can possibly do that without the being a universal common element to the equation. So as I see it, it is more likely that there is something out there which can be either mental or physical. Then that it – whatever ‘it’ is, would be primary ~ comes before both the physical and experiential mental facets of existence.

Ultimately we can reduce down and simplify to this; IT = EITHER, NEITHER and ALL.

There are several conundrums and problems with the notion of a purely physical universe. That the mind apparently does not exist and experiential thought is somehow just information, so we are not really seeing colour nor hearing sound for example, as such things don’t in this view.

Equally so, there are problems where the physical universe cannot extend beyond what it is, not before nor after, and not outside of what the physical universe is. No explanation I have heard satisfies. A cyclic universe would ultimately have the same issues as a singular instance of universe. In that eventually you have to start from nothing and from something which is not physical but which manifests the physical universe.
An infinitely extending universe, cyclic or not, would also have many issues e.g. infinite variance, so you would get all sorts of crazy worlds with crazy amounts of energy. How about a candyfloss universe which eats other universes? Yes infinite variation would manifest absolutely everything you can think of and more. It could be like infinite sets which would limit the unlimited I suppose. Though I don’t want to get into all of that here, I think there are problems with cardinality and amounts e.g. it is easy to think of the infinite set of red planets but not so easy if there is an infinite lump of iron, as there would be no room left. As I say a different debate perhaps.

We are always thinking of things in terms of their limits, it is how we think of the world. Yet the mind doesn’t have limits, it is not a physical thing and so has no such restraints apart from where it is thinking of limited things like sensory input. Equally mind has to be able to interact with physical informations of every kind, and in the third party i.e. in dreams and visualisations.

A universe which is a projection of mind, can create a world as easily as we can in our minds eye. It would have no issues about dimension nor limit, because these are products of, and not the original ‘thing’ or mind itself.

_
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

amorphos_ii wrote: October 17th, 2022, 6:12 pm So the question; is the universe similarly a projection?
It's questions like this one that metaphysics was created for. There are no answers, of course — there is no evidence, or other supporting material, to go on. But the lack of answers does not mean the journey is pointless. We can learn much by just considering such issues, and following where they lead. For me, if no-on else, that is the joy of metaphysics, and of philosophy.

As for your question, I think it is a little more general than you intend, and is closely related to questions like 'are we brains-in-vats'. Such questions seem to date back to solipsism, the original reminder that almost nothing is certainly as it seems to be. There always seem to be other possibilities that, logically, cannot be discarded or dismissed.
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by Alias »

amorphos_ii wrote: October 17th, 2022, 6:12 pm A universe which is a projection of mind, can create a world as easily as we can in our minds eye. It would have no issues about dimension nor limit, because these are products of, and not the original ‘thing’ or mind itself. _
Sure. No problem there at all - except for that teeny-weeny one about what "the mind" is in the first place.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
amorphos_ii
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by amorphos_ii »

Pattern-chaser

I concur that nothing is what it seams to be, but that’s when we are talking about ‘things’, which are relative and the facts change as our informational perspective updates and change. However, when we are not making an observation upon a thing – which is fundamentally third person perspective, or some such ‘looking upon’ observation, then ‘mind’ is the first experience prior to such things.

In other words, mind is the instrument we are doing the observation with and not what it is observing. Primary and not secondary. It is our first reality before all further considerations.

Alias

well you cant look at the mind itself, because it is that what’s doing the looking or perceiving. Strange thing is, that we also cannot look at another’s mind, because all we can look at are aspects of what it does – which are secondary and not primary.


Same goes for reality itself, we can look at what is manifest or existent, but not at what reality itself is.

This is why I think mind is or belongs to, the fundament, reality itself. As I think that is necessarily a oneness [albeit with a value of zero] and not duel or faceted. Ergo mind is what the said reality is – at least when we are thinking of it in such terms. Strangely as inferred, I do think that oneness can be looked at as not mind. Consider that the manifest world has both mind and physical entities which are not ‘mind’, both of which emanate from the primary reality.

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Re: Universe a projection?

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amorphos_ii wrote: October 21st, 2022, 2:57 am Pattern-chaser

I concur that nothing is what it seams to be, but that’s when we are talking about ‘things’, which are relative and the facts change as our informational perspective updates and change. However, when we are not making an observation upon a thing – which is fundamentally third person perspective, or some such ‘looking upon’ observation, then ‘mind’ is the first experience prior to such things.

In other words, mind is the instrument we are doing the observation with and not what it is observing. Primary and not secondary. It is our first reality before all further considerations.
If mind is merely a tool for observation, what is it that is doing the observing?
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by Alias »

amorphos_ii wrote: October 21st, 2022, 2:57 am well you cant look at the mind itself, because it is that what’s doing the looking or perceiving.
That wasn't the problem. The problem is: if the universe is a product of mind (The Mind; a mind, my mind, another's mind or the Mind of God, doesn't matter which) where what and how generated is this mind?
Same goes for reality itself, we can look at what is manifest or existent, but not at what reality itself is.
Not without real senses and receptors, we can't. And those are attributes of an entity, which is a product of the universe and exists in the universe. You are proposing that grain of sand in the oyster's saliva encompass the ocean.
This is why I think mind is or belongs to, the fundament, reality itself.
How is "fundamental reality itself" distinct from "universe" and "mind"?
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Re: Universe a projection?

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Alias wrote: October 21st, 2022, 9:41 am How is "fundamental reality itself" distinct from "universe" and "mind"?
The reason this is a difficult topic to discuss is that we have no idea how to answer your question 👆. We know what the question means — at least, in general terms, we do — but we don't have a clue on how to start finding out how to answer it. It is possible, even likely (?), that we humans have no way to find this out. But no-one said philosophy was easy! 😉
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by amorphos_ii »

I meant that the mind IS the thing we are doing the observation with!

The mind is not generated! There has to be something which is perpetual and always ‘there’, otherwise reality is incomplete. I would say that ‘reality’ cannot be merely a collection of bits, because none of those parts nor all of them, are reality, they are themselves. The parts are the circles in the Venn diagram, and reality is the containing circle.

If you could or did say what all things are, none of those things would be ‘reality’, they would all be what they are and not something else.

- universe is the circles inside the Venn diagram, but it did not exists 14 billion years ago [or whatever the truer amount is]. So reality has universe but universe does not have reality [entire].
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Re: Universe a projection?

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- universe is the circles inside the Venn diagram, but it did not exists 14 billion years ago [or whatever the truer amount is]. So reality has universe but universe does not have reality [entire].
Oh well, okay then.
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Re: Universe a projection?

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amorphos_ii wrote: October 22nd, 2022, 8:09 pm There has to be something which is perpetual and always ‘there’, otherwise reality is incomplete.
What makes you think this is so? 🤔
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by amorphos_ii »

- because containing circle.

i can't see how you can have a cluster of things without that being in something or even an emptiness. ...to have no containing circle.
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Re: Universe a projection?

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amorphos_ii wrote: October 22nd, 2022, 8:09 pm There has to be something which is perpetual and always ‘there’, otherwise reality is incomplete.
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 11:13 am What makes you think this is so? 🤔
amorphos_ii wrote: October 23rd, 2022, 12:51 pm - because containing circle.

i can't see how you can have a cluster of things without that being in something or even an emptiness. ...to have no containing circle.
I'm sorry, but I asked why you think that 'there has to be something which is perpetual and always 'there''?
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by amorphos_ii »

sure, i meant 'reality' has to always be there. the idea of there be nothing before and after the universe, seams absurd. when the universe ends it would mean that history didn't occur - because there would be no record of it, and the history book once read will have vanished.
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Re: Universe a projection?

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amorphos_ii wrote: October 27th, 2022, 4:52 am When the universe ends it would mean that history didn't occur - because there would be no record of it, and the history book once read will have vanished.
You require a record that persists after time itself has stopped existing, or the events themselves become retrospectively non-existent? That makes no sense to me.
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Re: Universe a projection?

Post by Mercury »

"We know our brains produce the world we see hear and generally experience. As yet we cannot say that experienced things like colour, are physical, and we cannot externally see or hear colour and sounds occurring in our brains. Hear I am just going to go with the idea that ‘mind’ is the thing which produces mental qualia like colour, and it does that based upon sensory information."

Nope! We do not know that. We are led to believe that, but it's not true. It's an agenda dating back to the 1600's to deny science the moral authority it should rightfully own as truth. We can absolutely say that colour is physical; it's related to wavelengths of light, that in turn are related to physical and chemical properties. This is how spectroscopy works. This is why the sky is blue. Light is filtered by an oxygen rich atmosphere, allowing blue light to penetrate. Blue light has a particular wavelength. Red light has a different wavelength; and different wavelengths of light are perceived as different colours - related in turn to chemistry, and the physics of red/blue shift - which indicates whether an object is moving toward us or away from us. All this information is encoded in colour. It is not imagined.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
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