PROVE to me that the world is, in fact, real at all.

[d3r31nz1g3]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

[Sy Borg]

It doesn't matter how objectively "real" that reality is. What matters most to us are relativities.

It's like the free will issues. It's doesn't matter. We feel as though we have free will, and that's what's matters most. How free we may be depends on many things.

[LuckyR]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

When one casts doubt on the senses, then there is doubt about perception. If there is doubt about perception, then nothing can be absolutely taken at face value and of course it becomes possible for everything to be false.

Thus there is no "evidence" that can refute that conclusion since the "evidence" can similarly be false.

Basically the best réfutation is: because you're not important enough to "deserve" anyone's expenditure of effort to fake you out.

[d3r31nz1g3]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

When one casts doubt on the senses, then there is doubt about perception. If there is doubt about perception, then nothing can be absolutely taken at face value and of course it becomes possible for everything to be false.

Thus there is no "evidence" that can refute that conclusion since the "evidence" can similarly be false.

Basically the best réfutation is: because you're not important enough to "deserve" anyone's expenditure of effort to fake you out.

Yes exactly and that's usually the response I get when I bring this up.

The bizarre thing is the logical problem becomes all the more tangible when you bring up Earth's population, it's surface area, or the absurdity of flatulence.

Even more so when you context it. The notion that one is surrounded by mocking flatulence. That it's simply flatulence and I am being mocked by God somehow.

Point is solipsism is absolutely tangible.

[LuckyR]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

When one casts doubt on the senses, then there is doubt about perception. If there is doubt about perception, then nothing can be absolutely taken at face value and of course it becomes possible for everything to be false.

Thus there is no "evidence" that can refute that conclusion since the "evidence" can similarly be false.

Basically the best réfutation is: because you're not important enough to "deserve" anyone's expenditure of effort to fake you out.

Yes exactly and that's usually the response I get when I bring this up.

The bizarre thing is the logical problem becomes all the more tangible when you bring up Earth's population, it's surface area, or the absurdity of flatulence.

Even more so when you context it. The notion that one is surrounded by mocking flatulence. That it's simply flatulence and I am being mocked by God somehow.

Point is solipsism is absolutely tangible.

The fact that a phenomenon strikes someone unschooled in the cause and origin of it, as this or that is expected yet ultimately meaningless.

[d3r31nz1g3]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

When one casts doubt on the senses, then there is doubt about perception. If there is doubt about perception, then nothing can be absolutely taken at face value and of course it becomes possible for everything to be false.

Thus there is no "evidence" that can refute that conclusion since the "evidence" can similarly be false.

Basically the best réfutation is: because you're not important enough to "deserve" anyone's expenditure of effort to fake you out.

Yes exactly and that's usually the response I get when I bring this up.

The bizarre thing is the logical problem becomes all the more tangible when you bring up Earth's population, it's surface area, or the absurdity of flatulence.

Even more so when you context it. The notion that one is surrounded by mocking flatulence. That it's simply flatulence and I am being mocked by God somehow.

Point is solipsism is absolutely tangible.

The fact that a phenomenon strikes someone unschooled in the cause and origin of it, as this or that is expected yet ultimately meaningless.

It's not really a matter of being unschooled.

It's a matter of "at all times I'm being hypnotically mocked by flatulating naked ninnies".

As in, flatulence is intelligently mocking me at all times.

If flatulence is a mocking signature of hypnosis, where it's reasonably interpreted as such if you're seeing the concept accurately, all is suspect at all times.

It's naturally distracting to talk about something immature like flatulence.

But what if "God" opened the hypnotic clouds of reality and shouted "LET THERE BE FARTS! IT WAS THE FARTS THE WHOLE TIME! HAHAHAHAHA IT WAS A DECEPTION!"

[ernestm]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

Every person who takes philosophy seriously at some point has problems with solipsism, and philosophyforum.com has been taken over by solipsistic anarchists. Its a very nasty ideology and the end result of continued cynicism.

So here is my consolation. As a thinking being, its worth considering that you are not forced into being so skeptical. You have a choice to consider yourself in a defeastist way, or an optimistic way, and somewhere in between there is a balance that makes more sense. At Oxford, they dont tallk about ideas being right or wrong, they talk about ideas 'having merit.' Some do, some don't. Not all beliefs are without merit. Solipsism has little merit.

I didnt realize how helpful that perspective would be to me in my life, so I hope its helpful to you.

[Count Lucanor]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

You are assuming that if solipsism were true, the characters in your illusion could prove to you that your assumption is wrong. But if they were able to do that, solipsism could not be true. So, once you made the assumption, you closed the door to any further inquiry.

[d3r31nz1g3]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

You are assuming that if solipsism were true, the characters in your illusion could prove to you that your assumption is wrong. But if they were able to do that, solipsism could not be true. So, once you made the assumption, you closed the door to any further inquiry.

Solipsism as in "anything external to me or basic logical principles that are self-evidenced cannot be known certainly".

The point of my topic is poorly expressed, admittedly.

The point is that solipsism is tangible--everybody farts.

What if the farts are mocking me?

In this instance I'm using literal farts to demonstrate that at all times, perhaps it's literally true that farts are mocking me. They're farts, after all.

[Sy Borg]

Your farts are relatively dignified. If you were a cnidarian you would eat, fart and poop out of a single opening.

[Moreno]

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

I like the idea of clues to a matrix and while I probably wouldn't be triggered into doubt by farts, let's just accept that as objectively odd for the sake of argument.

Here's what strikes me first. If farts 'bother you' in the sense that they seem to be mocking you comedically and you take them as a sign this world is not real, you have some sense of what does seem or is real. Other things do not disturb you like this. Other things would not lead you to question reality. It seems to me this means you think you have experienced the real. That you can distinguish the unlikely from the real. So, I don't really need to convince you that there is a real world, you already believe that, given that you can discern real things from unlikely things. Now, this doesn't prove (to you) that this world with farts in it is real, but it seems to me you believe there is a real world that includes this simulation. And if this is a simulation made by others that are mocking you, then solipsism is not something you believe in.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

So, instead of me proving to you via evidence, I am using deduction to show that you do believe there is a real world and there are others who are mocking you. Or this is the real world. Those are the two possible options in your OP. Hence solipsism is not one of your beliefs. I mean, either this world with us farters is real OR someone is mocking you in your simulation. That scenario also has a real world in it and one part of it is the simulation you are in. It's not the real world filled with farters, those exist in a simulation in the real world. One you think you have experienced in some way, or you would have no tools to discern unlikely things mocking you from real things simply existing.

[3017Metaphysician]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all considering the following:

The world is absolutely and incomprehensibly massive. It consists of millions of square miles. There are 8,000,000,000 people in it, which is eight thousand orders of individual millions. In Japan alone, which appears very small and slender on the world map, there are 120 individual groups of a million people.

To top it all off, all persons defecate and literally fart. I get the impression that human farts are existentially mocking me with intelligent intent. As in, the world is somehow fake all around me despite being physically present and absolutely perfectly realistic, and the "farts" seem like a mocking signature that it's all not real to me.

As in, I think "farts" themselves are intelligently "designed" with the intent of mocking me comedically.

Furthermore, scientific reality and the world leads me to believe that my person originates from my mother's womb, where she literally defecated me out of her vagina next to her anus. Despite full awareness of the scientific reality of evolution and reproduction, I am somehow suspicious of that fact alone.

These factors, which may sound immature if you don't catch my intent, lead me to believe I am living in an insane hypnotic false reality.

So, here's the challenge: prove me wrong.

Bare in mind, most immediate forms of evidencing I will consider to be "part of the hypnotic deception, where it's all simply just the farts".

Too funny! Aside from considering one's own Freudian preoccupation with anal retentive type behavior, there is Teleology to conscious existence as there is a purpose to farting:

Flatulence, in humans, is the expulsion of gas from the intestines via the anus, commonly referred to as farting. "Flatus" is the medical word for gas generated in the stomach or bowels.[1] A proportion of intestinal gas may be swallowed environmental air, and hence flatus is not entirely generated in the stomach or bowels. The scientific study of this area of medicine is termed flatology.[2]

Flatus is brought to the rectum and pressurized by muscles in the intestines. It is normal to pass flatus ("to fart"), though volume and frequency vary greatly among individuals. It is also normal for intestinal gas to have a feculent or unpleasant odor, which may be intense. The noise commonly associated with flatulence ("blowing a raspberry") is produced by the anus and buttocks, which act together in a manner similar to that of an embouchure. Both the sound and odor are sources of embarrassment, annoyance or amusement (flatulence humor).

People find other peoples' flatus unpleasant, but are unfazed by, and may even enjoy, the scent of their own.[60] While there has been little research carried out upon the subject, some speculative guesses have been made as to why this might be so. For example, one explanation for this phenomenon is that people are very familiar with the scent of their own flatus, and that survival in nature may depend on the detection of and reaction to foreign scents.[61]

Historical comment on the ability to fart at will is observed as early as Saint Augustine's The City of God (5th century A.D.). Augustine mentions men who "have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at will, so as to produce the effect of singing".[56]



In agreeing with St. Augustine, my grandma used to tell my dad: better in the world singing than in your tummy stinging!

[Pattern-chaser]

The following probably comes off as something I seriously think or ponder, which I do...

But think of this as a thought experiment in epistemology. The experiment is a classic one: solipsism. Prove to me that the world is even real at all...

I assume that, by "prove", you refer to a justified and conclusive demonstration of correctness. In that case, there can be no proof of anything at all, except that Objective Reality exists. We know it exists, but can know nothing of its nature, or whatever. N.B. this is absolute stuff, where even 99.999% doesn't count; only 100% will do.

I just love metaphysics, don't you?

[Pattern-chaser]

So here is my consolation. As a thinking being, its worth considering that you are not forced into being so skeptical. You have a choice to consider yourself in a defeatist way, or an optimistic way, and somewhere in between there is a balance that makes more sense. At Oxford, they don't talk about ideas being right or wrong, they talk about ideas 'having merit.' Some do, some don't. Not all beliefs are without merit. Solipsism has little merit.

Oo, I like that response. I think solipsism has merit, as a lesson in possibility: it cannot be disproved or refuted, and that is its lesson. There are things that we believe to be possible — but we have no idea of probability or likelihood — that could, just maybe, be actually correct. Even things that seem far-fetched remain possible until contradictory evidence is discovered. And, in cases like these, evidence is often thin on the ground. In this particular case, there is no evidence at all, nor can there be, I suspect.

I like the idea of ideas "having merit", or not. Binary truth and falsehood often carry so very little meaning (depending on context, of course!).

[LuckyR]

So here is my consolation. As a thinking being, its worth considering that you are not forced into being so skeptical. You have a choice to consider yourself in a defeatist way, or an optimistic way, and somewhere in between there is a balance that makes more sense. At Oxford, they don't talk about ideas being right or wrong, they talk about ideas 'having merit.' Some do, some don't. Not all beliefs are without merit. Solipsism has little merit.

Oo, I like that response. I think solipsism has merit, as a lesson in possibility: it cannot be disproved or refuted, and that is its lesson. There are things that we believe to be possible — but we have no idea of probability or likelihood — that could, just maybe, be actually correct. Even things that seem far-fetched remain possible until contradictory evidence is discovered. And, in cases like these, evidence is often thin on the ground. In this particular case, there is no evidence at all, nor can there be, I suspect.

I like the idea of ideas "having merit", or not. Binary truth and falsehood often carry so very little meaning (depending on context, of course!).

All true, but then again most of what everyone addresses on a day-to-day basis is not absolutely provable. We deal with probabilities routinely just fine. Therefore only a small minority of of "decisions" are on proven answer topics. In fact if you think about it, if the answer is provably true to a question, where's the "decision" to be made? True decisions are when you're choosing between options, not when there is one proven right answer and an infinite number of wrong (or suboptimal) answers.