The January 2023 Philosophy Book of the Month is Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise by John K Danenbarger.

Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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dattaswami
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Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Post by dattaswami »

CLOSENESS AND FAMILARITY DEVELOPS NEGLIGENCE

[Shri Ramanaiah asked “Why does God always want to remain unimaginable? Does it not leave the devotee ever dissatisfied that it is impossible to know God?” Shri Swami replied as follows.]

[Message on Naga Panchami day] The actual reason is that the intelligence of the devotee can imagine anything, which has the spatial dimensions (length, breadth and height). Anything, which does not have the spatial dimensions, becomes logically unimaginable. You can test this point by closing your eyes and constantly try to imagine anything, which is not having spatial dimensions. Even the minutest particle that you can imagine must have some least measurable or atleast spatial dimensions, which can be calculated atleast by calculations if not by instruments.

Therefore, the problem to understand God lies with the devotee and not with God. You have to keep God beyond the space because God is the generating cause of the space. You cannot find pot in the lump of mud before the generation of the pot. If you say that the pot exists already in the mud, you cannot say that the pot is generated after the preparation of the pot since the pot already exists in the mud. Therefore, the effect should not be in the cause before its generation. Hence, space should not exist in God before its generation. It means the original God before the generation of space does not have the characteristics of space, which are the spatial dimensions. This logic inevitably keeps God beyond space and hence, unimaginable.

You may argue that nothing is impossible for the omnipotent God. All impossibilities called as miracles are possible for God. Therefore, the unimaginable God by His unimaginable power or capability can make the devotee to imagine even the unimaginable God. The answer for this is that God never breaks the general logic to be followed by the souls in Pravritti. Of course, God performs these unimaginable events to establish the concept of unimaginable nature.

But, this one point stands as an exception and the other miracles are sufficient to establish the existence of unimaginable nature. For another reason also, you should not say that God is not omnipotent due to incapability of this exception since there is a valid reason for this in the interest of not only the devotee but also God. Such valid reason is: the human being is made of ego, jealousy and negligence over the attained or known things. As long as an item is unknown and is not attained, the negligence, ego and jealousy subside.

The human being always regards the distant item and neglects the item, which is present before the eyes. We can find this human nature by several examples and I can give one or two of these. People worship the statue of the serpent today, the Naga Panchami, with unimaginable devotion since the actual serpent is not seen. When it appears, it is immediately killed! People neglect their parents when they are alive and do not give meals even with one side dish. But after their death, their yearly ceremony is performed with meals containing at least a dozen side dishes! In the case of serpents, the fear for selfish harm is the reason. In the case of parents also, the same fear for the selfish harm is the reason because if the yearly ceremony is not performed, there is a fear that some harm will happen to him. This is the inherent nature and even the angels are not exceptional to this as said in the Gita (Paroksha Priya ivahi Devaah…).

Even in the case of contemporary human incarnation, devotees worship it with lot of devotion for sometime and negligence starts slowly. God tested whether the human being makes God an exception to this inherent nature. Such test is the observation of the human incarnation after living with the devotees for sometime. The human being perfectly proved that even God is not an exception to its inherent nature. Even the devotee like Rukmini could not overcome this. She was daily drinking the hot milk and the Lord was normal even after drinking the hot milk. One day Rukmini gave the same hot milk to Radha.

When Radha took that milk, the skin of the Lord became red due to heat. The Lord told that this happened since He is in the heart of Radha. The conclusion showed that the Lord was not in the heart of Rukmini. Rukmini asked the Lord for the reason. The Lord told that Radha was staying far and hence, the value of the Lord was maintained by her.

This proves that anybody staying far away will have value. Therefore, God wants to stay far from the devotees by always becoming unimaginable so that the value can be maintained. When the value is broken, the Lord will feel more for it. He does not want to see the break of His value and feel for it. Hence, God avoided this one miracle not only in the interest of the devotee but also in His interest. The interest of the devotees is that the devotee should not lose the Lord due to such negligence.
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3017Metaphysician
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Re: Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

dattaswami wrote: November 28th, 2022, 3:16 am CLOSENESS AND FAMILARITY DEVELOPS NEGLIGENCE

[Shri Ramanaiah asked “Why does God always want to remain unimaginable? Does it not leave the devotee ever dissatisfied that it is impossible to know God?” Shri Swami replied as follows.]

[Message on Naga Panchami day] The actual reason is that the intelligence of the devotee can imagine anything, which has the spatial dimensions (length, breadth and height). Anything, which does not have the spatial dimensions, becomes logically unimaginable. You can test this point by closing your eyes and constantly try to imagine anything, which is not having spatial dimensions. Even the minutest particle that you can imagine must have some least measurable or atleast spatial dimensions, which can be calculated atleast by calculations if not by instruments.

Therefore, the problem to understand God lies with the devotee and not with God. You have to keep God beyond the space because God is the generating cause of the space. You cannot find pot in the lump of mud before the generation of the pot. If you say that the pot exists already in the mud, you cannot say that the pot is generated after the preparation of the pot since the pot already exists in the mud. Therefore, the effect should not be in the cause before its generation. Hence, space should not exist in God before its generation. It means the original God before the generation of space does not have the characteristics of space, which are the spatial dimensions. This logic inevitably keeps God beyond space and hence, unimaginable.

You may argue that nothing is impossible for the omnipotent God. All impossibilities called as miracles are possible for God. Therefore, the unimaginable God by His unimaginable power or capability can make the devotee to imagine even the unimaginable God. The answer for this is that God never breaks the general logic to be followed by the souls in Pravritti. Of course, God performs these unimaginable events to establish the concept of unimaginable nature.

But, this one point stands as an exception and the other miracles are sufficient to establish the existence of unimaginable nature. For another reason also, you should not say that God is not omnipotent due to incapability of this exception since there is a valid reason for this in the interest of not only the devotee but also God. Such valid reason is: the human being is made of ego, jealousy and negligence over the attained or known things. As long as an item is unknown and is not attained, the negligence, ego and jealousy subside.

The human being always regards the distant item and neglects the item, which is present before the eyes. We can find this human nature by several examples and I can give one or two of these. People worship the statue of the serpent today, the Naga Panchami, with unimaginable devotion since the actual serpent is not seen. When it appears, it is immediately killed! People neglect their parents when they are alive and do not give meals even with one side dish. But after their death, their yearly ceremony is performed with meals containing at least a dozen side dishes! In the case of serpents, the fear for selfish harm is the reason. In the case of parents also, the same fear for the selfish harm is the reason because if the yearly ceremony is not performed, there is a fear that some harm will happen to him. This is the inherent nature and even the angels are not exceptional to this as said in the Gita (Paroksha Priya ivahi Devaah…).

Even in the case of contemporary human incarnation, devotees worship it with lot of devotion for sometime and negligence starts slowly. God tested whether the human being makes God an exception to this inherent nature. Such test is the observation of the human incarnation after living with the devotees for sometime. The human being perfectly proved that even God is not an exception to its inherent nature. Even the devotee like Rukmini could not overcome this. She was daily drinking the hot milk and the Lord was normal even after drinking the hot milk. One day Rukmini gave the same hot milk to Radha.

When Radha took that milk, the skin of the Lord became red due to heat. The Lord told that this happened since He is in the heart of Radha. The conclusion showed that the Lord was not in the heart of Rukmini. Rukmini asked the Lord for the reason. The Lord told that Radha was staying far and hence, the value of the Lord was maintained by her.

This proves that anybody staying far away will have value. Therefore, God wants to stay far from the devotees by always becoming unimaginable so that the value can be maintained. When the value is broken, the Lord will feel more for it. He does not want to see the break of His value and feel for it. Hence, God avoided this one miracle not only in the interest of the devotee but also in His interest. The interest of the devotees is that the devotee should not lose the Lord due to such negligence.
Lot's or problematic stuff, but the short answer is, unless you want to embrace the logic of the omni-3 argument, one is still left with those things (phenomenology) that are logically impossible yet still exist. You know, like conscious existence, quantum entanglement, time itself, and so on.

Or, just as commonsense would dictate, considering there is no 'imaginable' ToE, the concept of God is the axiom from which the universe manifests its causal properties. In other words, both concepts confer explanatory value of some kind. A rational explanation for the world in the sense of a closed and complete system of logical truths is almost certainly impossible (ToE). We are barred from ultimate knowledge, from ultimate explanation, by the very rules of reasoning that prompt us to seek such an explanation in the first place.

Meaning, it doesn't mean that the universe is absurd or meaningless, only that an understanding of its existence and properties lies outside the usual categories of rational human thought. As such, we know the application of human reasoning in its most refined and formalized sense to mathematics is nevertheless full of paradox and uncertainty.

So in that sense, just like a theory of everything, the concept of God should be considered 'unimaginable'. Otherwise, why would one posit the concept in the first place?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
value
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Re: Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Post by value »

Albert Einstein once wrote the following prophecy about the exploration of an 'other' world of meaning beyond the scope of science. An area that can be referenced as 'philosophical God'.

Perhaps... we must also give up, by principle, the space-time continuum,” he wrote. “It is not unimaginable that human ingenuity will some day find methods which will make it possible to proceed along such a path. At the present time, however, such a program looks like an attempt to breathe in empty space.

Within Western philosophy, the realm beyond space has traditionally been considered a realm beyond physics — the plane of God’s existence in Christian theology. In the early eighteenth century, philosopher Gottfried Leibniz’s “monads” — which he imagined to be the primitive elements of the universe — existed, like God, outside space and time. His theory was a step toward emergent space-time, but it was still metaphysical, with only a vague connection to the world of concrete things.


So it is prophesized that humans will discover a philosophical method to explore a (relevant to existence) area that lays outside of the boundaries of 'existence'.

The following topic might be of interest.

Logic is it's own fallacy.
https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums ... f=1&t=4253

The author of that topic might be Robert Pirsig (IQ 170), the author of the most sold philosophy book ever (5m copies). While his account is deleted, his posts are still accessible.

User: @ChaoticMindSays
https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums ... r_id=35658
value
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Re: Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Post by value »

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 28th, 2022, 9:29 amSo in that sense, just like a theory of everything, the concept of God should be considered 'unimaginable'. Otherwise, why would one posit the concept in the first place?
Is philosophical contemplation not a form of imagination?

What do you think of the cited prophecy of Albert Einstein?
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Re: Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Post by 3017Metaphysician »

value wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:32 am
3017Metaphysician wrote: November 28th, 2022, 9:29 amSo in that sense, just like a theory of everything, the concept of God should be considered 'unimaginable'. Otherwise, why would one posit the concept in the first place?
Is philosophical contemplation not a form of imagination?

What do you think of the cited prophecy of Albert Einstein?
Value!

Thanks, I looked through the links. One takeaway there is (as paraphrased from the book The Mind of God), that human rationality is just a 'legitimate' way in seeking "explanations" for things, and that we truly understand something only when it is "explained." But is it clear that this provides adequate guidance when we are tangling with ultimate questions? Existentially, reasons for existence are very likely to consist of explanations beyond the usual sense of the words, in that an understanding of existence and its properties lies outside the usual categories of rational human thought.

But to answer your questions, yes, philosophical contemplation is a form of imagination. For instance, many theories start with imaginative leaps, then are worked backwards into a paradigm or existing axiom to test its validity. Much like writing music. It starts with the imaginative mind. An imaginative leap or revelation. A qualitative property or entity. And of course, that is all part of the information narrative.

With respect to Einstein, many don't realize what a philosopher he was. As I'm sure you've done, just a simple quote search would reveal all sorts of humanistic philosophies that relate to cosmology, phenomenology and ontology. :D For instance, just some random quotes from Einstein on imagination:

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.” – Albert Einstein
“Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” – Albert Einstein
“I very rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express in words afterwards.” – Albert Einstein
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” – Albert Einstein
“Imagination is more important than knowledge.” – Albert Einstein

Then a few musings:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein

People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.
Albert Einstein

It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge.
Albert Einstein

Value, I can understand why he was praised as a type of celebrity back in his day. I hope to meet him someday, but for now we can enjoy all of his great works... . His spirit lives on!?
“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.” "Spooky Action at a Distance"
― Albert Einstein
value
Posts: 264
Joined: December 11th, 2019, 9:18 am

Re: Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Post by value »

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:25 am
value wrote: November 29th, 2022, 9:32 amWhat do you think of the cited prophecy of Albert Einstein?
Value!

Thanks, I looked through the links. One takeaway there is (as paraphrased from the book The Mind of God), that human rationality is just a 'legitimate' way in seeking "explanations" for things, and that we truly understand something only when it is "explained." But is it clear that this provides adequate guidance when we are tangling with ultimate questions? Existentially, reasons for existence are very likely to consist of explanations beyond the usual sense of the words, in that an understanding of existence and its properties lies outside the usual categories of rational human thought.

But to answer your questions, yes, philosophical contemplation is a form of imagination. For instance, many theories start with imaginative leaps, then are worked backwards into a paradigm or existing axiom to test its validity. Much like writing music. It starts with the imaginative mind. An imaginative leap or revelation. A qualitative property or entity. And of course, that is all part of the information narrative.
Do you have an idea how the prophecy of Albert Einstein with regard the (philosophically plausible) exploration of the area that is labelled 'God' might be fulfilled?

3017Metaphysician wrote: November 29th, 2022, 10:25 amWith respect to Einstein, many don't realize what a philosopher he was. As I'm sure you've done, just a simple quote search would reveal all sorts of humanistic philosophies that relate to cosmology, phenomenology and ontology. :D For instance, just some random quotes from Einstein on imagination:

"Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.” – Albert Einstein
“Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.” – Albert Einstein
“I very rarely think in words at all. A thought comes, and I may try to express in words afterwards.” – Albert Einstein
“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.” – Albert Einstein
“Imagination is more important than knowledge.” – Albert Einstein

Then a few musings:

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
Albert Einstein

People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.
Albert Einstein

It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge.
Albert Einstein

Value, I can understand why he was praised as a type of celebrity back in his day. I hope to meet him someday, but for now we can enjoy all of his great works... . His spirit lives on!?
What do you mean with 'meet him some day'? ;)

If you mean after death, perhaps you would not have to wait for the after life.

Philosopher William James - the father of American psychology - was president of the Society for Psychical Research that researched paranormal phenomena (ψ psi). The association still exists today: https://www.spr.ac.uk/

In an interesting twist on the story of William James and the psychics, Gary Schwartz, director of Behavioral Medicine Clinic at Yale University, published an article in 2010 reporting two “proof of concept” experiments supporting the idea that William James may be continuing his psychical research—“from the other side.”

(2019) The Lingering Spirit of William James (Harvard Crimson)
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2019 ... iam-james/
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Re: Why does God always want to remain unimaginable?

Post by owlkinhoot »

Dude, I imagine God to be an mate looking, offspring making interested young female girl. I don't know if you qualify to be her daddy, but whoever is lucky is really lucky :)

See? You can imagine God, it's simple
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