What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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JackDaydream
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by JackDaydream »

GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 1:39 pm
JackDaydream wrote: January 8th, 2023, 11:24 pm
It is interesting that your take on 'enlightenment' is along the lines of rationality, as in the enlightenment and Steven Pinker in his book, 'Enlightenment' took this stance. The comparison between a moment of knowledge along the rational direction in comparison with the idea of mysticism is important. The mystic is said to sometimes reach the realisation of 'the ineffable'. It is questionable whether the mystic experience if it is beyond words is open to question. I wonder where Wittgenstein lies in this because he spoke of being silent of that which one could not speak about.
"Realization" is the wrong word there, with respect to Wittgenstein. "Recognition" would be more accurate. The former implies that one has gained some sort of grasp, or insight, into the "ineffable." The latter term merely suggests that some questions are unanswerable; there is no suggestion or pretense of esoteric knowledge.
There may be the eureka moment in which both intuition and logic come together because the most profound ways of rational understanding also draw upon intuition and imagination. Also, this level of understanding may involve an intimate engagement with ideas which requires brain chemistry but cannot be reduced to it entirely.
Ideas are not reducible to brain chemistry, but they are fully explicable in terms of brain chemistry.
Wittgenstein' s emphasis on accepting the unknown as opposed to trying to fill in the metaphysical gaps of esoterica is important as a grounding point in philosophy. It may be this that what made him stand out in the twentieth century, and in this one. However, I am not so sure about explanations in terms of brain philosophy. That is because it moves and pulls the focus into psychology, as the master science, almost making philosophy redundant. The empirical aspects of investigation are important but it is questionable whether all can be reduced to the physical.

If Alfie or Bruno have ever had the occasional spliff or any unusual experiences at all, including the extrasensory, they may end up having some discussion as to how experiences can be explained and understood meaningfully. The ideas may be explained by biochemistry but it is possible to ask what is explanation? Is it a material or human construct, or something in between?
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 2:02 pm

Well, "enlightenment," as used by mystics, is a superlative, denoting the acquisition of some sort of "higher" knowledge or understanding which transcends that gained by ordinary observation and reflection. My claim is that there is no such "transcendental" wisdom or understanding, and what is presented as such is mostly vacuous gobbledygook.

But "enlightenment" also has a more prosaic meaning, merely denoting the gaining of some (substantive) knowledge which was unanticipated and which has some major implications for practice. E.g., when we speak of the 17th - 18th century "Enlightenment" we are not speaking of anything esoteric or "transcendental."



Oh, sure --- the term can be understood in that subjective, personal way --- but we can't attach any superlative implications to such personal changes in thoughts and beliefs. Whether the new viewpoint is superior to the old is a wholly subjective judgment.
"He who bends to himself a joy / Does the wing-ed life destroy, / But he who kisses a joy as if flies / Lives in eternity's sunrise."

So wrote that great mystic. WIlliam Blake.

A poem such as this can be enlightening in all of the above ways. It can alert us to unanticipated knowledge, it can change our subjective feelings, and it can offer us a subjective "higher knowledge".

It does this by not only offering some objectively sound advice, but also by framing the advice in metaphors and images that make the advice "shine" (cast off "light"). The image of joy as a delicate bird; the image of sun rise bringing with it the hope of a new day; and the image of kissing a joy as if it were a physical lover all offer us a new (unanticipated) way of seeing things, They cast light on what may have been hidden in darkness. This is enlightening.
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by GE Morton »

Ecurb wrote: January 9th, 2023, 4:02 pm
A poem such as this can be enlightening in all of the above ways. It can alert us to unanticipated knowledge, it can change our subjective feelings, and it can offer us a subjective "higher knowledge".

It does this by not only offering some objectively sound advice, but also by framing the advice in metaphors and images that make the advice "shine" (cast off "light"). The image of joy as a delicate bird; the image of sun rise bringing with it the hope of a new day; and the image of kissing a joy as if it were a physical lover all offer us a new (unanticipated) way of seeing things, They cast light on what may have been hidden in darkness. This is enlightening.
Appealing? Yes. Inspiring? Sure. But "enlightening," or conferring "higher knowledge"? What knowledge is that? After reading it, what did you know that you didn't already know?
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 7:47 pm
Ecurb wrote: January 9th, 2023, 4:02 pm
A poem such as this can be enlightening in all of the above ways. It can alert us to unanticipated knowledge, it can change our subjective feelings, and it can offer us a subjective "higher knowledge".

It does this by not only offering some objectively sound advice, but also by framing the advice in metaphors and images that make the advice "shine" (cast off "light"). The image of joy as a delicate bird; the image of sun rise bringing with it the hope of a new day; and the image of kissing a joy as if it were a physical lover all offer us a new (unanticipated) way of seeing things, They cast light on what may have been hidden in darkness. This is enlightening.
Appealing? Yes. Inspiring? Sure. But "enlightening," or conferring "higher knowledge"? What knowledge is that? After reading it, what did you know that you didn't already know?
You know that "he who bends to himself a joy...." Poetry lends itself neither to paraphrase nor explanation. But an insight is a form of enlightenment; "sight" is dependent on "light", and vice versa.

At a dinner party a young woman was seated next to Robert Frost.

"I just love your new poem," she gushed. "But I'm not sure I understand it. What does it mean?"

"What do you want?" responded the poet. "For me to say it over again in worser English?"
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

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" While research on the use of psilocybin-assisted therapy for depression is ongoing, the results of clinical trials have yielded promising results.

A 2016 study indicated that psilocybin therapy was linked to a significant reduction in symptoms of anxiety and depression in people who were going through cancer treatment.

In addition to these effects, the treatment was also linked to a number of other benefits as well. Those treated with psilocybin reported experiencing increased optimism and better quality of life.6

A follow-up study suggested that these effects were also enduring. Participants maintained significant reductions in depressive symptoms five years after treatment. The researchers also noted that between 71 and 100% of the participants described psilocybin-assisted therapy as among the "most personally meaningful and spiritually significant experiences of their lives."
https://www.verywellmind.com/psilocybin ... ow-5088261
“Find someone who makes you realise three things:
One, that home is not a place, but a feeling.
Two, that time is not measured by a clock, but by moments.
And three, that heartbeats are not heard, but felt and shared.”
― Abhysheq Shukla
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JackDaydream
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

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Stoppelmann wrote: January 10th, 2023, 4:58 am " While research on the use of psilocybin-assisted therapy for depression is ongoing, the results of clinical trials have yielded promising results.

A 2016 study indicated that psilocybin therapy was linked to a significant reduction in symptoms of anxiety and depression in people who were going through cancer treatment.

In addition to these effects, the treatment was also linked to a number of other benefits as well. Those treated with psilocybin reported experiencing increased optimism and better quality of life.6

A follow-up study suggested that these effects were also enduring. Participants maintained significant reductions in depressive symptoms five years after treatment. The researchers also noted that between 71 and 100% of the participants described psilocybin-assisted therapy as among the "most personally meaningful and spiritually significant experiences of their lives."
https://www.verywellmind.com/psilocybin ... ow-5088261
Your approach is the one which I was thinking about in relation to healing and Psilocybin is involved in Seretonin neurotransmitters. I am on SSRI antidepressants and I am extremely interested in how the alternative of microdosing on hallucinogenics. I have thought of participating in clinical trials in this area but I am not sure that my GP would approve.

The idea of microdosing does make sense because the eating of magic mushrooms can be too much. I did eat some a couple of times but the experience was so dramatic that I had to go to bed to recover and had stomach ache for a few hours.

That is the problem of experimenting alone. With magic mushrooms part of the problem can be picking ones which are toadstools or toxic in some ways. The problem with substances is that they are not regulated and people may end up buying unsafe substances. There was the whole issue of legal highs sold in 'head shops' several years ago. There were instances of people becoming seriously ill and the substances are not for sale in shops, especially smokable incense, which was even responsible for some deaths. The thing is that the human need for mind altering substances has probably always existed, going back to shamanic traditions, but it is often pushed underground rather than being recognized and developed in a safe way.
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 1:39 pm Ideas are not reducible to brain chemistry, but they are fully explicable in terms of brain chemistry.
Aside: isn't this sentence self-contradictory? If ideas "are not reducible to brain chemistry", how can they be "fully" explained by brain chemistry?
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

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JackDaydream wrote: January 10th, 2023, 7:36 am The thing is that the human need for mind altering substances has probably always existed, going back to shamanic traditions, but it is often pushed underground rather than being recognized and developed in a safe way.
I think this lies at the heart of this discussion. There's no point complaining about, or trying to change, something so intimately associated with our species from our very beginnings. We might as well stop pretending and accept it, as you say. These substances have clear and obvious benefits, such as we have been discussing here in this thread. [They have recreational benefits too, but that's probably off-topic.]
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:26 am
GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 1:39 pm Ideas are not reducible to brain chemistry, but they are fully explicable in terms of brain chemistry.
Aside: isn't this sentence self-contradictory? If ideas "are not reducible to brain chemistry", how can they be "fully" explained by brain chemistry?
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:26 am
GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 1:39 pm Ideas are not reducible to brain chemistry, but they are fully explicable in terms of brain chemistry.
Aside: isn't this sentence self-contradictory? If ideas "are not reducible to brain chemistry", how can they be "fully" explained by brain chemistry?
That's a good question. No, it isn't self--contradictory. "Reducibility" is a linguistic function. I.e., it means that the descriptive terms in one vocabulary are translatable into terms from another vocabulary. E.g., "water" (a term in the vernacular vocabulary) is translatable into terms of the scientific vocabulary ("hydrogen and oxygen"). That verbal reducibility is not possible for the primitive terms of subjective experience, such as the terms for colors, because the phenomena those terms denote are private, not publicly observable, and because they are primitive --- simple, with no denotable properties. They are unanalyzable, and thus undescribable in scientific terms.

The phenomena are explicable scientifically, however. Explanation consists in identifying causes for effects. And we can supply the cause for an experience of "redness" you may have --- it happened because someone shone a red light into your eyes, which triggered a sequence of neural signalling. We can't describe or analyze that experience of yours, but we can denote it and explain it.
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 10th, 2023, 11:36 am
JackDaydream wrote: January 10th, 2023, 7:36 am The thing is that the human need for mind altering substances has probably always existed, going back to shamanic traditions, but it is often pushed underground rather than being recognized and developed in a safe way.
Needs are instrumental, derived from wants. You only need a mind-altering substance if you want to alter your mind. (And, of course, if someone wants to alter his mind he should be free to do so).
I think this lies at the heart of this discussion. There's no point complaining about, or trying to change, something so intimately associated with our species from our very beginnings. We might as well stop pretending and accept it, as you say. These substances have clear and obvious benefits, such as we have been discussing here in this thread. [They have recreational benefits too, but that's probably off-topic.]
Some of them do have some benefits, but the main issue was whether they yield anything that can plausibly be described as "enlightenment."
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by Ecurb »

GE Morton wrote: January 10th, 2023, 1:37 pm
Some of them do have some benefits, but the main issue was whether they yield anything that can plausibly be described as "enlightenment."
If psychedelics help someone view things "in a different light", then they are "enlightening:. Usefulness has nothing to do with it.

Also, most Native North American groups had no mind altering substances stronger than tobacco.
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by Robert66 »

GE Morton wrote: January 10th, 2023, 1:37 pm the main issue was whether they yield anything that can plausibly be described as "enlightenment."
I thought we were to discuss qualia and mental healing.
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by Robert66 »

...but what the hell, it is all interesting.
GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 1:39 pm Ideas are not reducible to brain chemistry, but they are fully explicable in terms of brain chemistry.
Fully? Don't think so.
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by Robert66 »

Here is an idea: I'm feeling really high after smoking weed, and I just composed a new piece of music, having experienced certain tones, and their interaction, in a new way. I feel enlightened in the sense that I now have musical knowledge of which I was previously ignorant.

"Well", comes the answer, "you are experiencing an enhancement of activity in the mesolimbic dopamine system, due to the tetrahydrocannabinol in cannabis. In addition, interference with short-term memory formation in your hippocampus is causing you to focus on the present moment, instead of accessing your memory to predict what might happen."

Yes that is an explanation. Does it fully explain the ideas I am experiencing? Not in my book.
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Re: What Do Psychedelic Experiences Demonstrate About Qualia and Mental Healing?

Post by GE Morton »

Robert66 wrote: January 10th, 2023, 3:47 pm ...but what the hell, it is all interesting.
GE Morton wrote: January 9th, 2023, 1:39 pm Ideas are not reducible to brain chemistry, but they are fully explicable in terms of brain chemistry.
Fully? Don't think so.
A fair point. They are indeed not fully explicable, in the sense that one may predict what idea a person may have by observing neural firing patterns in his brain. That is because that neural network is a complex adaptive system (CAS), with millions of interacting variables in play. No CAS (economies, weather, evolution itself) is fully predictable in that way. But it is predictable "in principle" --- we can be quite confident that whatever that idea may be, it was produced by some complex of neural signaling.
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