What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
- JackDaydream
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What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
I am reading, 'The Conscious Mind', by Zoltan Torey (2014) in which he acknowledges the physical brain processes, but looks more at processes. He argues,
' "Awareness" and its self-reflection variant "consciousness" are not static entities but ongoing processes'. He sees consciousness as inherent in living systems, including the sense of self and self-awareness. Here, the role of introspection is important, seeing the importance of language in this.
In this thread I am interested in thinking about how important is reflection and the nature of self consciousness. There is a difference between looking into oneself or seeing oneself from an objective point of view. How important is the subjective or more objective points of view. I am not sure that it is an absolute because both perspectives may be important. In particular, a person may explore subjective aspects of experience and the more objective, or intersubjective aspects, through others' feedback.
This particular topic may draw upon the philosophy perspectives of consciousness, the self and other psychological perspectives. It goes back to Socrates' emphasis on self-knowledge but in the current climate of thinking in which neuroscience is so apparent, the philosophy aspects may be almost seen as an appendix to questions of self knowledge and awareness, and even self delusion. So, I am going back to the basics of understanding of self-knowledge and how important is this in the general schema of knowledge. How important is subjectivity of the inner world of introspection, or more objective measures of consciousness and self-awareness as valid perspectives of knowledge?
- Agent Smyth
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
In the contest of this topic, and its OP, I don't think the distinction between subjective and objective really matters. When we are thinking — or at least, when *I* am thinking — I am unaware of the source of my cogitations. By this I mean that, when I ... utilise an idea I've considered in the past, I'm not aware that it is 'subjective' or 'objective', it's just an idea. The thinking processes of others may differ markedly from my own, I know, but my own experience is that the subjective/objective label simply is not important to me while I am thinking. [Unless I'm specifically thinking about subjective/objective distinctions, of course.]JackDaydream wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2023, 12:23 pm How important is subjectivity of the inner world of introspection, or more objective measures of consciousness and self-awareness as valid perspectives of knowledge?
As a separate but related point, are our attempts to 'be objective' when we are considering introspection and thinking, helpful, useful, or even possible?
One concept that is often mentioned in the context of objectivity is mind-independence, a condition whereby some truth is independent of the minds, beliefs, or opinions of any observer. Given that we are considering the mind, and thinking, is mind-independence (and thereby, objectivity) even useful?
I believe that self-knowledge and -awareness can be considered in their own terms, as what they seem to be, without introducing labels or concepts that might not help?
"Who cares, wins"
- JackDaydream
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
It does seem that how people are observed by others is so variable. I once had a tutor on a cognitive-behavioral therapy course who said if one person makes a comment about you it is only an opinion but if many say the same thing it is probably worth taking seriously. I try to bear this in mind for viewing feedback. However, if different people who come up with a similar view know each other it may be less reliable, especially if it is based on gossip. In groups gossip can be extremely toxic and damaging, such as school, courses and work.Agent Smyth wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 2:38 am I have a feeling that, when it comes to recognizing one's self, self as in one's mind, we will all fail the mirror test. We could do a simple experiment: A description of three people's (A, B, C) minds/selves can be printed out and handed out to them with the question "which description is you?" I bet no one will get it right.
But, I do think that feedback can be helpful if it is constructive because it can give awareness of aspects of oneself to which one is blind. This was illustrated by Johari's window, which was about parts known by oneself but not to others, known to self and others, known to others but not to self and aspects completely unknown. Feedback can make one aware of aspects known by others not to self. However, it can be hard I find in facing up to some feedback, I have found personally, especially if it is harsh criticism. It is even possible to deafen one's psychological ears to what is hard to hear until it turns into a case of loud shouting which jolts one into listening.
- JackDaydream
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
Perhaps you notice less disparities of views of yourself and how others' perceive you. I have experienced so much criticism from others and often unwanted feedback at times, often with the add on, 'I don't usually say what I think of people to them, but you seem the sort of person who can take it.' Okay, I am probably not going to shout and swear if people say unpleasant things but it doesn't mean that I always want negative comments. Of course, to be too swayed by others' views of oneself is the whole spectrum of narcissism. In psychoanalysis, there is a a distinction between thick and thin-skinned narcissism, as when one pretends to oneself to not care or the opposite where one experiences heightened states of social sensitivity. The two can sometimes be combined by individuals in various ways.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 10:00 amIn the contest of this topic, and its OP, I don't think the distinction between subjective and objective really matters. When we are thinking — or at least, when *I* am thinking — I am unaware of the source of my cogitations. By this I mean that, when I ... utilise an idea I've considered in the past, I'm not aware that it is 'subjective' or 'objective', it's just an idea. The thinking processes of others may differ markedly from my own, I know, but my own experience is that the subjective/objective label simply is not important to me while I am thinking. [Unless I'm specifically thinking about subjective/objective distinctions, of course.]JackDaydream wrote: ↑March 23rd, 2023, 12:23 pm How important is subjectivity of the inner world of introspection, or more objective measures of consciousness and self-awareness as valid perspectives of knowledge?
As a separate but related point, are our attempts to 'be objective' when we are considering introspection and thinking, helpful, useful, or even possible?
One concept that is often mentioned in the context of objectivity is mind-independence, a condition whereby some truth is independent of the minds, beliefs, or opinions of any observer. Given that we are considering the mind, and thinking, is mind-independence (and thereby, objectivity) even useful?
I believe that self-knowledge and -awareness can be considered in their own terms, as what they seem to be, without introducing labels or concepts that might not help?
However, as far as objectivity and subjectivity is concerned I see the exploration of the subjective as very important, as reflection. Some people seem to avoid it altogether. For example, I know some people who can't bear being alone with themselves. For example, I know people who when sitting on a bus or train need to occupy their minds with a crossword or a magazine, and, increasingly with their phones. This may have made isolation of lockdown so difficult for some. I am a bit the opposite because although I enjoy socialisation I do feel that I need private thinking space a lot. Even as a child I was described as introspective and, of course, a daydreamer. Even though I have run groups I do find group situations to be a challenge and I am usually rather quiet. Reading is in itself like a form of meditative subjective exploration.
- Agent Smyth
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
You're so right. Thank god for other people.JackDaydream wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 10:31 amIt does seem that how people are observed by others is so variable. I once had a tutor on a cognitive-behavioral therapy course who said if one person makes a comment about you it is only an opinion but if many say the same thing it is probably worth taking seriously. I try to bear this in mind for viewing feedback. However, if different people who come up with a similar view know each other it may be less reliable, especially if it is based on gossip. In groups gossip can be extremely toxic and damaging, such as school, courses and work.Agent Smyth wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 2:38 am I have a feeling that, when it comes to recognizing one's self, self as in one's mind, we will all fail the mirror test. We could do a simple experiment: A description of three people's (A, B, C) minds/selves can be printed out and handed out to them with the question "which description is you?" I bet no one will get it right.
But, I do think that feedback can be helpful if it is constructive because it can give awareness of aspects of oneself to which one is blind. This was illustrated by Johari's window, which was about parts known by oneself but not to others, known to self and others, known to others but not to self and aspects completely unknown. Feedback can make one aware of aspects known by others not to self. However, it can be hard I find in facing up to some feedback, I have found personally, especially if it is harsh criticism. It is even possible to deafen one's psychological ears to what is hard to hear until it turns into a case of loud shouting which jolts one into listening.
- Mrprosper123
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
- Agent Smyth
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
- JackDaydream
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
The nature of awareness itself and how to frame it is the question? That is why I wrote the thread really, because in the context of the dominance of the physicalist model and determinism it is questionable what significance is placed on awareness at all. The whole approach of the behaviourist model of BF Skinner and the idea of consciousness as an illusion, as suggested by Daniel Dennett seems to rule out the importance of awareness, especially reflective self consciousness.Agent Smyth wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 2:36 am Awareness, what more can we say about it? There seem to be at least one non-obvious way to frame it. Biologically? Perhaps, can't see clearly from where I'm at. Someone surely has a better view.
This is questionable though because all knowledge starts from the awareness of self awareness as recognised by the phenomenologists. Also, within philosophy as a whole the awareness of the 'I', or 'soul' was the starting point. Looking within is recognised by models such as Buddhism and spiritual models of metaphysics and epistemology, especially in relation to the value of meditation. However, the dominance of physicalism and determinism does seem to be going in the direction more of going away from the idea of focus on consciousness as a seat of awareness and importance.
- JackDaydream
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
This is the starting point for Plato in the idea of 'the examined life' and many ancient thinkers. Knowing oneself is often more seen as an aspect of psychology than as an aspect of philosophy. This occurred within the philosophy of the twentieth century, especially in connection with the developments of science. I am not wishing to dismiss the importance of science in understanding, but would suggest that self knowledge is still important in philosophy. The starting point for all thought and interpretation may begin from self knowledge and awareness of one's own thinking processes.Mrprosper123 wrote: ↑March 24th, 2023, 11:52 pm Self-knowledge and awareness is knowing yourself, your worth, your space and keeping to it.
- RJG
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
Firstly, we can ONLY experience "bodily reactions" (sensations/thoughts/feelings), that's it, nothing more. We can't experience actual things, or selfs, themselves. Therefore, true "self-awareness" is logically impossible.
Secondly, we can’t be in two places at one time; we can’t be both the observer and the observed simultaneously. Therefore, true "self-awareness" is logically impossible.
- JackDaydream
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
I agree that awareness of the self is limited but don't see it as impossible. I suppose that it does come with the underlying question of what is the self? The way we cannot know anything independently of the category known as the self makes it the seat of consciousness itself. It may not be an entity in the way in which the way that the 'soul' was used to be, but it is the basis of subjectivity itself and the source of reflective consciousness.RJG wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 8:09 am True self-awareness is a myth. It is logically impossible to experience oneself (on at least 2 counts).
Firstly, we can ONLY experience "bodily reactions" (sensations/thoughts/feelings), that's it, nothing more. We can't experience actual things, or selfs, themselves. Therefore, true "self-awareness" is logically impossible.
Secondly, we can’t be in two places at one time; we can’t be both the observer and the observed simultaneously. Therefore, true "self-awareness" is logically impossible.
It is also true that it is not possible to be both the subject and the objective observer. The observer may only have a basis for observation of another person's actions, words and expression of self. This involves intersubjectivity though because the understanding of another is based upon aspects of shared experiences or interpretation of this. This involves an underlying theory of mind, which make this possible. However, a lot of errors may creep in understanding another, as the person interprets others subjectively. As far as subjective self awareness, it may be important because it is the basis for the narrative construction of identity, but unless one lived in an isolated bubble it draws upon the intersubjective aspects of living.
- Agent Smyth
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
JackDaydream wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 7:41 amThe nature of awareness itself and how to frame it is the question? That is why I wrote the thread really, because in the context of the dominance of the physicalist model and determinism it is questionable what significance is placed on awareness at all. The whole approach of the behaviourist model of BF Skinner and the idea of consciousness as an illusion, as suggested by Daniel Dennett seems to rule out the importance of awareness, especially reflective self consciousness.Agent Smyth wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 2:36 am Awareness, what more can we say about it? There seem to be at least one non-obvious way to frame it. Biologically? Perhaps, can't see clearly from where I'm at. Someone surely has a better view.
This is questionable though because all knowledge starts from the awareness of self awareness as recognised by the phenomenologists. Also, within philosophy as a whole the awareness of the 'I', or 'soul' was the starting point. Looking within is recognised by models such as Buddhism and spiritual models of metaphysics and epistemology, especially in relation to the value of meditation. However, the dominance of physicalism and determinism does seem to be going in the direction more of going away from the idea of focus on consciousness as a seat of awareness and importance.
Over the years I've come to what's to me an astonishing conclusion - spirituality matters. Philosophically, you already know what that means. From a religious point of view, we've made a great deal of progress but that's being dismissed as tosh by some. Frankly, me is puzzled, very puzzled indeed.Master Yoda wrote:Meditate on this, I must.
- JackDaydream
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
Generally, I have always gravitated towards spirituality. However, I see it in the broadest sense, including areas of comparative religion and I try to keep one foot in science and philosophy to avoid becoming a psychonaut. Before I began writing on philosophy sites I used to spend a lot of time reading loads of books on aspects of the esoteric and I do see that as importance. I find the transpersonal tradition, including writers like Ken Wilber, as being extremely useful for being able to combine philosophy, psychology and spirituality in a synthetic way. Also, I do find reading books by Buddhist authors as helpful, because such writers usually manage to avoid some of the negative clutter of Abrahamic religions, and allow for appreciation of spirituality as the mindful art of the cultivation of inner experience.Agent Smyth wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 10:40 amJackDaydream wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 7:41 amThe nature of awareness itself and how to frame it is the question? That is why I wrote the thread really, because in the context of the dominance of the physicalist model and determinism it is questionable what significance is placed on awareness at all. The whole approach of the behaviourist model of BF Skinner and the idea of consciousness as an illusion, as suggested by Daniel Dennett seems to rule out the importance of awareness, especially reflective self consciousness.Agent Smyth wrote: ↑March 25th, 2023, 2:36 am Awareness, what more can we say about it? There seem to be at least one non-obvious way to frame it. Biologically? Perhaps, can't see clearly from where I'm at. Someone surely has a better view.
This is questionable though because all knowledge starts from the awareness of self awareness as recognised by the phenomenologists. Also, within philosophy as a whole the awareness of the 'I', or 'soul' was the starting point. Looking within is recognised by models such as Buddhism and spiritual models of metaphysics and epistemology, especially in relation to the value of meditation. However, the dominance of physicalism and determinism does seem to be going in the direction more of going away from the idea of focus on consciousness as a seat of awareness and importance.Over the years I've come to what's to me an astonishing conclusion - spirituality matters. Philosophically, you already know what that means. From a religious point of view, we've made a great deal of progress but that's being dismissed as tosh by some. Frankly, me is puzzled, very puzzled indeed.Master Yoda wrote:Meditate on this, I must.
Talking and writing about ideas is also a way of reflective thinking and sharing them about them rather getting lost in a soliptist vacuum of perplexity. That may be where intersubjectivity may be so useful. It does seem that people come with such different dispositions, both with regard to the importance of philosophy and the gravitation towards the spiritual. It may be that so much of the guilt and politics of religion has led people to be biased towards spirituality, as well as a dismissal of the value of inner aspects of experience. However, the value of meditation and mindfulness is strong, especially within psychology.
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Re: What is Self-Knowledge and Awareness?
The trouble with my definition, however, is that phenomenological experiences seem to arise from existence. If entire nature was just a collection of facts and potentials, then how could anything 'new' arise, and how do we even define 'new' if it is not subjective?
The problem also is that 'newness' could simply be a potential fact coming into existence so that the capacity for facts is unlimited. But then, if everything that ever existed was thought to be objective, how would we know the nature of the human experience as we perceive things in variable forms?
A thought could be totally unique to a single observer, and never exist again in the whole of human history. If it is noumenal and beyond thought, bit it is totally unique, then that creates a further problem in definition, as it is only our minds that define what is objective.
Maybe I'm struggling a bit with this topic.
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