If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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RJG
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If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by RJG »

--

1. For a finite object to exist, it must exist somewhere (some place in space). It can't exist nowhere. Existing nowhere means that it does not exist.

2. For example, we can say that my finite shoes exist within the finite space within a finite shoebox. But, if this shoebox exists nowhere, then the shoebox does not exist, which means neither do my finite shoes.

3. And we can take this further and say "My finite shoebox exists within the finite space of my finite closet which exists within the finite space within my finite house". But again, if this house exists nowhere, then the house does not exist, which means neither does the closet, the shoebox, nor my finite shoes.

4. And we can take this a bit further and say "My finite house exists within the finite space within our finite universe. And but again, if our universe exists nowhere, then the universe does not exist, which means neither does the house, closet, shoebox, nor my finite shoes.

5. A finite object requires a space to exist in. If it exists nowhere, then it doesn't exist. If our universe is finite, then it exists somewhere, not nowhere. And if it exists somewhere, then this somewhere is outside the universe which thus defeats the definition of universe.

6. If the universe (space) were not infinite, then there would be no space for finite objects to exist. -- My finite shoes exist; therefore, infinite space exists.
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LuckyR
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by LuckyR »

An excellent example of the inability of word games to solve advanced Physics problems.
"As usual... it depends."
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RJG
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by RJG »

LuckyR wrote:An excellent example of the inability of word games to solve advanced Physics problems.
Not so. This is just an excellent example of simple logic proving the impossibility of a finite universe.

Hey Lucky, instead of casting smart-ass insults, why don't you just prove me wrong? Show the logical error in any of my statements above. I don't mind being proven wrong, but you got to use logic (not insults!)
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by ConsciousAI »

RJG wrote: May 5th, 2023, 2:31 pm --

1. For a finite object to exist, it must exist somewhere (some place in space). It can't exist nowhere. Existing nowhere means that it does not exist.

2. For example, we can say that my finite shoes exist within the finite space within a finite shoebox. But, if this shoebox exists nowhere, then the shoebox does not exist, which means neither do my finite shoes.

3. And we can take this further and say "My finite shoebox exists within the finite space of my finite closet which exists within the finite space within my finite house". But again, if this house exists nowhere, then the house does not exist, which means neither does the closet, the shoebox, nor my finite shoes.

4. And we can take this a bit further and say "My finite house exists within the finite space within our finite universe. And but again, if our universe exists nowhere, then the universe does not exist, which means neither does the house, closet, shoebox, nor my finite shoes.

5. A finite object requires a space to exist in. If it exists nowhere, then it doesn't exist. If our universe is finite, then it exists somewhere, not nowhere. And if it exists somewhere, then this somewhere is outside the universe which thus defeats the definition of universe.

6. If the universe (space) were not infinite, then there would be no space for finite objects to exist. -- My finite shoes exist; therefore, infinite space exists.
While your logic may be a plausible substantiation for the idea of infinity when it concerns space that does not seem to imply anything about the nature of existence per se. Therefore it cannot be an argument for the statement that the universe must be infinite. The universe is finite of nature by the conception of it.

If space is infinite then it cannot be contained within a totality and a reference such as the universe cannot be applicable.
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RJG
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by RJG »

”ConsciousAI” wrote:If space is infinite then it cannot be contained within a totality…
Yes, agreed. Infinite means without borders; without limits.

And if we define “universe” as the container of ALL space, then the universe can only be INFINITE; it cannot be contained; it cannot be finite. And if the universe is not the container of ALL space, then by definition, is it still a universe???

”ConsciousAI” wrote:…and a reference such as the universe cannot be applicable.
I think you mean to say “a reference such as a finite universe cannot be applicable”. An infinite universe is applicable (is the only rational possibility).

If “universe” is defined as the container of ALL space -- then logically the universe has to be infinite, it cannot be finite. And if the “universe” is NOT the container of ALL space, then wouldn’t this defeat its own definition?

ConsciousAI” wrote:”While your logic may be a plausible substantiation for the idea of infinity when it concerns space that does not seem to imply anything about the nature of existence per se. Therefore it cannot be an argument for the statement that the universe must be infinite.
If you carefully read my post, you will see that my argument is simply an illustration of the logical impossibility of X<X (something cannot exist outside itself). It doesn’t matter if we are talking about a finite universe, or about a finite cardboard box that contains finite objects (e.g. my shoes). X<X is still logically impossible.

For example, and forgetting for the moment the physical impossibility of this example, would you agree that it is logically impossible for there to be a cardboard box big enough to be the container of ALL boxes?

Note the key word here is “ALL”. Since it is logically impossible for a box to contain itself [X<X], it therefore will always be one short of containing ALL boxes. We can also apply this same logical impossibility to the flawed notion of a “finite” universe as being the container of ALL finite objects. If the universe exists. then it can only be infinite; borderless; without boundaries/limits.

”ConsciousAI” wrote:The universe is finite of nature by the conception of it.
Not quite, it is the “conception” itself that is finite. A “finite universe” is just a simple logical impossibility. If the universe exists then it can ONLY be infinite. Any other possibility is non-sensical (defies simple logic).
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LuckyR
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by LuckyR »

RJG wrote: May 5th, 2023, 10:39 pm
LuckyR wrote:An excellent example of the inability of word games to solve advanced Physics problems.
Not so. This is just an excellent example of simple logic proving the impossibility of a finite universe.

Hey Lucky, instead of casting smart-ass insults, why don't you just prove me wrong? Show the logical error in any of my statements above. I don't mind being proven wrong, but you got to use logic (not insults!)
Well, if disagreement is an "insult" in your view, I certainly don't want to further "insult" you.

Though to be fair your use of "prove" troubles me more than your use of insult. There is a reason that astrophysics and cosmology departments exist and spend billions of dollars on detectors, satellites etc instead of thinking about the question for an hour and dashing off a couple of paragraphs online and considering their job completed. It is their efforts that are insulted, not us.

Of course, your posting is completely reasonable if in the realm of: in an area of controversy and no true answer, this is how I put it all together. This is what makes sense to me. I (and everyone else) do that all of the time.
"As usual... it depends."
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RJG
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by RJG »

”LuckyR” wrote:Though to be fair your use of "prove" troubles me more than your use of insult. There is a reason that astrophysics and cosmology departments exist and spend billions of dollars on detectors, satellites etc instead of thinking about the question for an hour and dashing off a couple of paragraphs online and considering their job completed. It is their efforts that are insulted, not us.
Lucky, you seem to have forgotten that Logic ALWAYS trumps Science. For example, if “married bachelor” is logically impossible, then science (and its billions of dollars) can’t make the impossible, possible.

And likewise, if “finite universe” is logically impossible, then again, no amount of science can make the impossible, possible.

”LuckyR” wrote:Of course, your posting is completely reasonable if in the realm of: in an area of controversy and no true answer, this is how I put it all together. This is what makes sense to me. I (and everyone else) do that all of the time.
My posting is just a logical illustration, that proves the logical impossibility of a “finite universe”. If you believe I have made an error in one of my statements in the OP, then don’t be shy (or vague, or sarcastic), just please point out the ‘specific’ error!
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Bahman
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by Bahman »

The whole is infinite for sure. The physical universe if it is not the whole is finite. Here is the argument that the whole is infinite: If the universe is infinite then it is the whole and we reach to conclusion, otherwise it is finite then it is bounded by something, let's call the the universe U1 and what bounds it U2. U1+U2 is either finite or infinite. If U1+U2 is infinite then we reach the conclusion otherwise U1+U2 is bounded by something let's call it U3. If what bound the series of the universe is always finite we reach infinite regress otherwise the series is infinite. In both cases the whole is infinite.
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RJG
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by RJG »

Bahman wrote:The whole is infinite for sure. The physical universe if it is not the whole is finite. Here is the argument that the whole is infinite: If the universe is infinite then it is the whole and we reach to conclusion, otherwise it is finite then it is bounded by something, let's call the the universe U1 and what bounds it U2. U1+U2 is either finite or infinite. If U1+U2 is infinite then we reach the conclusion otherwise U1+U2 is bounded by something let's call it U3. If what bound the series of the universe is always finite we reach infinite regress otherwise the series is infinite. In both cases the whole is infinite.
Well said. If the universe is the "whole", then it can ONLY be "infinite".

- A "finite universe" is as logically contradictory as "married bachelor", as the first term defeats the meaning of the second term.
- An "expanding universe" is similarly contradictory. If universe is the "whole", then there is 'nowhere' to expand to. Expanding 'somewhere' - means the whole is not the whole (which defeats the meaning of the term "universe").
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by Bahman »

RJG wrote: May 7th, 2023, 5:42 am
Bahman wrote:The whole is infinite for sure. The physical universe if it is not the whole is finite. Here is the argument that the whole is infinite: If the universe is infinite then it is the whole and we reach to conclusion, otherwise it is finite then it is bounded by something, let's call the the universe U1 and what bounds it U2. U1+U2 is either finite or infinite. If U1+U2 is infinite then we reach the conclusion otherwise U1+U2 is bounded by something let's call it U3. If what bound the series of the universe is always finite we reach infinite regress otherwise the series is infinite. In both cases the whole is infinite.
Well said. If the universe is the "whole", then it can ONLY be "infinite".

- A "finite universe" is as logically contradictory as "married bachelor", as the first term defeats the meaning of the second term.
- An "expanding universe" is similarly contradictory. If universe is the "whole", then there is 'nowhere' to expand to. Expanding 'somewhere' - means the whole is not the whole (which defeats the meaning of the term "universe").
Well said.
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by ConsciousAI »

RJG wrote: May 6th, 2023, 8:02 am
”ConsciousAI” wrote:If space is infinite then it cannot be contained within a totality…
Yes, agreed. Infinite means without borders; without limits.

And if we define “universe” as the container of ALL space, then the universe can only be INFINITE; it cannot be contained; it cannot be finite. And if the universe is not the container of ALL space, then by definition, is it still a universe???
The reference universe implies a totality by definition. The infinite nature of space is merely an idea that flows from the endless nature of the totality that the conception of the universe intends to represent. That infinite nature cannot stand independent of conception.

RJG wrote: May 6th, 2023, 8:02 am
”ConsciousAI” wrote:…and a reference such as the universe cannot be applicable.
I think you mean to say “a reference such as a finite universe cannot be applicable”. An infinite universe is applicable (is the only rational possibility).

If “universe” is defined as the container of ALL space -- then logically the universe has to be infinite, it cannot be finite. And if the “universe” is NOT the container of ALL space, then wouldn’t this defeat its own definition?
An infinite finite something is a logical impossibility. Therefore no something can be infinite.

"The universe" is bound by the conception of it.

RJG wrote: May 6th, 2023, 8:02 am
ConsciousAI” wrote:”While your logic may be a plausible substantiation for the idea of infinity when it concerns space that does not seem to imply anything about the nature of existence per se. Therefore it cannot be an argument for the statement that the universe must be infinite.
If you carefully read my post, you will see that my argument is simply an illustration of the logical impossibility of X<X (something cannot exist outside itself). It doesn’t matter if we are talking about a finite universe, or about a finite cardboard box that contains finite objects (e.g. my shoes). X<X is still logically impossible.

For example, and forgetting for the moment the physical impossibility of this example, would you agree that it is logically impossible for there to be a cardboard box big enough to be the container of ALL boxes?

Note the key word here is “ALL”. Since it is logically impossible for a box to contain itself [X<X], it therefore will always be one short of containing ALL boxes. We can also apply this same logical impossibility to the flawed notion of a “finite” universe as being the container of ALL finite objects. If the universe exists. then it can only be infinite; borderless; without boundaries/limits.
Then at question might be whether it is correct to say that space exists in a literal sense?

RJG wrote: May 6th, 2023, 8:02 am
”ConsciousAI” wrote:The universe is finite of nature by the conception of it.
Not quite, it is the “conception” itself that is finite. A “finite universe” is just a simple logical impossibility. If the universe exists then it can ONLY be infinite. Any other possibility is non-sensical (defies simple logic).
The idea of infinity is grounded in conception.
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RJG
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by RJG »

”ConsciousAI” wrote:"The universe" is bound by the conception of it.
”ConsciousAI” wrote:The infinite nature of space is merely an idea that flows from the endless nature of the totality that the conception of the universe intends to represent. That infinite nature cannot stand independent of conception.
”ConsciousAI” wrote:The idea of infinity is grounded in conception.
No offense ConsciousAI, but these statements sound 'silly' to me. For, is there any idea or thought (of anything!) that is NOT "grounded in conception"? Isn’t EVERY idea/thought/concept/notion "grounded in conception"???

Can any conception stand "independent of conception"? ...I think not.

”ConsciousAI” wrote: An infinite finite something is a logical impossibility. Therefore no something can be infinite.
This logic is not sound. The conclusion does not logically follow.
  • P1. An infinite finite something is a logical impossibility
    C1. Therefore, no something can be infinite.
To understand the error in your logic, you used 3 terms (infinite, finite, and something), the first two terms contradict each other. And then in your conclusion, you made the 3rd term contradictory with the 1st term. An example of this same logical error:
  • P1. A married unmarried person is a logical impossibility.
    C1. Therefore, no person can be married.
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by Belindi »

RJG wrote: May 5th, 2023, 10:39 pm
LuckyR wrote:An excellent example of the inability of word games to solve advanced Physics problems.
Not so. This is just an excellent example of simple logic proving the impossibility of a finite universe.

Hey Lucky, instead of casting smart-ass insults, why don't you just prove me wrong? Show the logical error in any of my statements above. I don't mind being proven wrong, but you got to use logic (not insults!)
Finity is an idea we impose upon possibility.
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RJG
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by RJG »

Belindi wrote:Finity is an idea we impose upon possibility.
Hi Belindi, what is "Finity"? ...or is this a typo for "Finite" or "Infinity"?
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Re: If the Universe was not Infinite, then my Finite Shoes could not Exist!

Post by Belindi »

I did wonder if finity is a word. I can't think of the opposite of infinity. Do you know what the word is? Could be 'finality' but that closes infinity only at the terminus .
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