Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Sy Borg wrote:
Yet there will most likely be concurrent movements - the biological aspect of the interface. While machines can come to achieve remarkable things, they have no motivation to do so. (Motivations could be deliberately programmed into AI but that would simply be the programmer's mind pretending to be a machine mind).

So, in the foreseeable future, humans appear essential to provide machine with the motivation to act.
But you see this is what I'm questioning - Yes, it appears that we are the motivators and programmers of computers and current paradigms of the existent state. But what if this is a delusion :?: - And that in fact we are being programmed by a super computer, 'the main frame main frame' as I have named it ? It made you first religious and then when you were ready scientific. It in fact is what is motivating you 'a priori' - You in fact are a student of a teacher and an intelligence you are yet to comprehend.
And make no mistake about it - I too do not understand it, I only sense that it is there, egging me on to continue to understand what currently can not be fully comprehended or grasped.
God the central machine that creates all that is then creates a biological life form that evolves as a lesson to itself in both creativity and understanding. The main point for now is that this central computer is not only conscious in a biological sense, but in every sense imaginable - But in truth it is not a 'Man made computer' - Man made computers, like Humans themselves, are very limited, and when compared to the 'main frame main frame' are not really conscious at all.
A Man made computer can not really become conscious by being motivated and programmed by the currently limited Human mind.
It is conceivable though that at some time in the future the Central Computer will program one of our computer creations and in so doing allow interaction between us and the higher intelligence that created us :arrow: :idea:
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Sy Borg wrote: November 10th, 2021, 3:48 pm When the environment outside is hostile enough, those who stay inside will be more likely to survive.
In the short-term, yes. But 'those inside' still need to breathe, eat and drink. Where will their air, food and water come from if the ecosystem stops supporting and enabling our existence and survival?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 11th, 2021, 7:59 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 10th, 2021, 3:48 pm When the environment outside is hostile enough, those who stay inside will be more likely to survive.
In the short-term, yes. But 'those inside' still need to breathe, eat and drink. Where will their air, food and water come from if the ecosystem stops supporting and enabling our existence and survival?
About the same way people live in the ISS or on submarines.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Sy Borg wrote: November 10th, 2021, 3:48 pm When the environment outside is hostile enough, those who stay inside will be more likely to survive.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 11th, 2021, 7:59 am In the short-term, yes. But 'those inside' still need to breathe, eat and drink. Where will their air, food and water come from if the ecosystem stops supporting and enabling our existence and survival?
Sy Borg wrote: November 11th, 2021, 3:33 pm About the same way people live in the ISS or on submarines.
The air, food and water on the ISS or in submarines is gathered from the 'outside' and brought in.... 🤔🤔🤔
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: November 12th, 2021, 10:26 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 10th, 2021, 3:48 pm When the environment outside is hostile enough, those who stay inside will be more likely to survive.
Pattern-chaser wrote: November 11th, 2021, 7:59 am In the short-term, yes. But 'those inside' still need to breathe, eat and drink. Where will their air, food and water come from if the ecosystem stops supporting and enabling our existence and survival?
Sy Borg wrote: November 11th, 2021, 3:33 pm About the same way people live in the ISS or on submarines.
The air, food and water on the ISS or in submarines is gathered from the 'outside' and brought in.... 🤔🤔🤔
1. Oxygen can be produced from local rocks on other worlds, let alone the Earth.

2. Food can be grown hydroponically.

3. Water is easily to access (you can access it from the regolith of the Moon) - just not for 8 billion people but by that time many of those will have long died and the rest of the masses will be living rough.

No matter how bad things get on Earth, billionaires and friends will be okay. They are akin to the penguins in the middle of a huddle during a blizzard; every other penguin will die before they do.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SteveKlinko »

philoreaderguy wrote: March 3rd, 2007, 11:45 am Do you think a man-made computer could ever become conscious? Can it have a soul? Why or why not?

Mod note: Conversation extended/continued here http://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15899
Artificial Intelligence is primarily implemented by a class of computer programs that can accomplish tasks that mimic Human Intelligence. Examples are things like Speech Recognition, Facial Recognition, and Self Driving Cars. With the improved computers and algorithms that we have today these kinds of computer capabilities have become increasingly more useful. But the Hype over all this is astounding. Marketing departments are trying to imply that these kinds of capabilities mean that there is an actual Conscious entity involved in the Speech Recognition, Facial Recognition, and Self Driving Car. But these are all just computer programs performing a specific task. These would have to be classified as Non-Conscious Artificial Intelligence. If Consciousness can be added to Machines then full Conscious Artificial Intelligence will be achieved.

According to the Inter Mind Model (IMM) the Speech Recognition, Facial Recognition, and Self Driving Car capabilities would reside in the Machine Physical Mind (PM) which is the computer Hardware and Software. The Machine PM serves the same purpose as our Human PM. But it seems that there is no capability for a Conscious Mind (CM) to have any Volitional effect on the Machine PM like occurs with a Human PM. The Machine PM is just mindlessly executing computer programs.

There is speculation that the Human CM might interact Volitionally with the Human PM using Quantum Mechanical effects. The Wikipedia page for Quantum Consciousness says: The Quantum Mind or Quantum Consciousness group of hypotheses propose that Classical Mechanics cannot explain Consciousness. It posits that Quantum Mechanical phenomena, such as Quantum Entanglement and Superposition, may play an important part in the Brain's function and could form the basis of an explanation of consciousness.

So we might speculate that a CM could also interact Volitionally with a Machine PM using Quantum Mechanical effects. But current technology does not allow for this in computer designs. The special connections are just not designed into the hardware at this time. We basically are not sure how to do this yet. But we have to start somewhere and the Machine Consciousness Experiment is an attempt to make such a Quantum Mechanical connection from a CM to a Machine PM.

The Quantum Mechanical connection between the CM and the PM must be a two way street. Volition allows a CM to affect a PM in order to do things in Physical Space (PSp). So in this case the connection is from the CM to the PM. A CM also needs to perceive what's going on in a PM, and therefore in PSp, so this connection must be from the PM to the CM.

For Humans, Neurons contain structures called Microtubules that operate based on Quantum Mechanical principles. If a CM (through an IM) is able to sense the state of a Human PM by sensing the state of the Microtubules then the CM might have the ability to sense all Neurons in the Human PM at the same time. For Vision the CM might be able to sense the state of the Visual Cortex areas in order to Experience what the Visual areas are currently Seeing. The CM would Experience it's own Personal Conscious Light (CL).

Maybe these Microtubules could be influenced by Quantum Fluctuations in Space-Time. So if a CM could cause a Quantum Fluctuation near a Microtubule then the CM might be able to influence the Brain in a large way if enough Microtubules are affected. This is very hypothetical but it is a logical avenue to explore.

For Machines, there are no Neurons but there are Transistors which operate on Quantum Mechanical principles. What if a CM (through an IM) could sense the state of the Transistors in an electronic circuit? A TFT Display Monitor has a Transistor at each pixel location. Maybe a CM can sense the state of all these Transistors in order to See what is currently displayed on the monitor. This is similar to how the CM senses the Visual Cortex in Humans. The Machine might then Experience it's own Personal CL similar to the Human Experience.

This situation could also work for camera chips and CMs. It may be the case that millions or billions of CMs have been experiencing what's going on in the world through Transistors for many years already. But these CMs have not had any way to affect anything in PSp because we have not designed the Volitional interfaces yet. Manufacturers are not making Androids (Robots with Consciousness) yet, just mindless Robots. But fully Conscious Androids are conceptually possible and could be a reality some day.

Since a transistor operates at the Quantum level of Physics to some extent, then maybe it could be influenced by Quantum Fluctuations in Space-Time. So if a CM can cause a Quantum Fluctuation near the device then the CM might be able to influence a circuit that is connected to the device and this circuit through amplification might be able to affect the behavior of a Machine. This would be a Volitional Interface.

The problem with Artificial Intelligence today is that Scientists are working on the Computer Processing side of things while denying that a Conscious Visual Experience, for example, would greatly improve the operation of their Machines with respect to Visual Processing. Consider that billions of years of evolutionary development produced the Conscious Visual Experience in the life forms on this planet so why do we want to deprive our Machines from using this kind of Data?

Since you were able to get this far down into my post I will assume you are interested in these ideas. Please visit The Inter Mind dot com website for more information.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Trigonometry is Important!
From our childhood, we knew little that what we are studying might go on to help us in the future. At best, we wanted to make sure that our semesters or classes pass on and the remaining things will be taken care of. But little did we know that there is nothing we can do more than leave these subjects within our classrooms alone. Consider trigonometry for instance. This is a subject where not many succeed. Certainly, during my time in high school and even in BS, I was never fond of trigonometry. Although the looks of the problems were simple like a triangular shape. But when I encountered the angles and their measurements, I thought there is no way I am passing this. Like you can see the application of trigonometry in real life: https://mytutorsource.qa/blog/applicati ... real-life/
Years on, and here I am expressing the importance of this subject.
1. Music
There is no music without trigonometry. Music is sound and sound results in the form of waves. Each wave carries a distinct pattern and thus, without knowing the troughs and crests, we will not be able to figure out the true propagation of sound waves that result in music.
2. Height
Often, architects have to rely on trigonometry to determine certain measurements and calculations. These are, for instance, measuring the height of buildings. Such a calculation helps best when considering different aspects of a structure. Often, trekkers also take the help of trigonometry to make sure the height of a mountain is within their range or not.
3. Games
During our childhood, we have seen a lot of fun games that only required only one key i.e. jump. The racer or the runner runs and he encounters a few obstacles. To avoid these obstacles disrupting the path of the runner, we need to press the key. But the jump of the runner is like a trajectory since he is moving forward. And this accurate jump movement results from trigonometry.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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AmosMorrison wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:14 am 1. Music
There is no music without trigonometry. Music is sound and sound results in the form of waves. Each wave carries a distinct pattern and thus, without knowing the troughs and crests, we will not be able to figure out the true propagation of sound waves that result in music.
I'm not sure about the rest of your post, but this 👆 is a simple misunderstanding. There is no direct relationship between music and trigonometry. A sine-wave - the simplest representation of a musical note - owes no direct debt to trigonometry.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: January 19th, 2022, 9:47 am
AmosMorrison wrote: January 19th, 2022, 2:14 am 1. Music
There is no music without trigonometry. Music is sound and sound results in the form of waves. Each wave carries a distinct pattern and thus, without knowing the troughs and crests, we will not be able to figure out the true propagation of sound waves that result in music.
I'm not sure about the rest of your post, but this 👆 is a simple misunderstanding. There is no direct relationship between music and trigonometry. A sine-wave - the simplest representation of a musical note - owes no direct debt to trigonometry.
Who told you that music plays little or absolutely no role in the development or working of sound waves or music in general? The whole trigonometry thing stands to present people a variable and factual display in their daily lives. And as for music and trigonometry, trigonometry is used in measuring the level or pitch of a sound wave or musical note. People find great use of this methodology by using panels in their rooms, for instance, their studio rooms or other spaces, and all they have to do is turn them into different angles. With this turning, the music or sound waves in the general bounce off right enough to make sure your ears receive the sound waves smooth and in an even condition.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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AmosMorrison wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:34 am The whole trigonometry thing stands to present people a variable and factual display in their daily lives. And as for music and trigonometry, trigonometry is used in measuring the level or pitch of a sound wave or musical note. People find great use of this methodology by using panels in their rooms, for instance, their studio rooms or other spaces, and all they have to do is turn them into different angles. With this turning, the music or sound waves in the general bounce off right enough to make sure your ears receive the sound waves smooth and in an even condition.
American Heritage Dictionary" wrote:Trigonometry
noun
  • The branch of mathematics that deals with the relationships between the sides and the angles of triangles and the calculations based on them, particularly the trigonometric functions.
  • The mathematical doctrine of the calculation of the angles, sides, and areas of triangles, plane and spherical, together with that of other quantities intimately related to those. Trigonometry embraces also goniometry, or the elementary theory of singly periodic functions.
  • That branch of mathematics which treats of the relations of the sides and angles of triangles, which the methods of deducing from certain given parts other required parts, and also of the general relations which exist between the trigonometrical functions of arcs or angles.
You are mistaken about what trigonometry is. It applies specifically to triangles, and their geometry, and has no direct link to music at all.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: January 21st, 2022, 8:36 am
AmosMorrison wrote: January 21st, 2022, 5:34 am The whole trigonometry thing stands to present people a variable and factual display in their daily lives. And as for music and trigonometry, trigonometry is used in measuring the level or pitch of a sound wave or musical note. People find great use of this methodology by using panels in their rooms, for instance, their studio rooms or other spaces, and all they have to do is turn them into different angles. With this turning, the music or sound waves in the general bounce off right enough to make sure your ears receive the sound waves smooth and in an even condition.
American Heritage Dictionary" wrote:Trigonometry
noun
  • The branch of mathematics that deals with the relationships between the sides and the angles of triangles and the calculations based on them, particularly the trigonometric functions.
  • The mathematical doctrine of the calculation of the angles, sides, and areas of triangles, plane and spherical, together with that of other quantities intimately related to those. Trigonometry embraces also goniometry, or the elementary theory of singly periodic functions.
  • That branch of mathematics which treats of the relations of the sides and angles of triangles, which the methods of deducing from certain given parts other required parts, and also of the general relations which exist between the trigonometrical functions of arcs or angles.
You are mistaken about what trigonometry is. It applies specifically to triangles, and their geometry, and has no direct link to music at all.
From your look, it feels like you are just going to question anything that comes your way and try to level it into a debate or an argument of some kind. It is as simple a question as it can get but yet here we are trying to ease the concepts of the long historic concepts of mathematics. Music never says it has nothing to do with simple maths or even simple shapes and geometries. Rather, you find it hard to believe that trigonometry is only the study of shapes and that too of triangles. Rather, it is easy to determine that every triangle also consists of the angles that are enough to cater or take away your concept and the idea that everything requires a nod.
Angles make sure that we obtain variations or variable patterns so that our final response gets a wavy outcome. For example, when you have some angles in the figure, you find out what an image or a geometrical shape will look like having changes or variations. Now consider this 2D application from a paper into the real world and then into a 3D application of trigonometry. This 3D representation of figures gives visible patterns of the 3D dimensional figures and thus you can make ample use of this phenomenon.
A sound wave strikes the walls and then returns to the initial point of interest. Often this becomes our ears and the striking point becomes the walls. But if you look keenly or closely, there is a lot that is going on. 3D patterns or shapes with angles make sure sound waves get different wavelengths and other dimensions that make their final combined response as a set of variable wavelengths. This is the basics of trigonometry in the world of music and for further details, you can visit any paper of research, simple!
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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No it cannot. We are conscious in that we have the ability to make an impulsive decision. A computer technology could make only the rational one. For instance, it is impossible to implement religion of any sort into a computer.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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IreneJohnson wrote: January 29th, 2022, 1:42 am No it cannot. We are conscious in that we have the ability to make an impulsive decision. A computer technology could make only the rational one.
A computer technology could make only the one it has been programmed to make. Its rationality depends on its programming being rational ... or not.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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IreneJohnson wrote: January 29th, 2022, 1:42 am No it cannot. We are conscious in that we have the ability to make an impulsive decision. A computer technology could make only the rational one. For instance, it is impossible to implement religion of any sort into a computer.
I think IreneJohnson might talk about what is "an impulsive decision". Decisions are usually arrived at from a selection of possibilities that is edited into a short list of probabilities and thence to the most probable. I think both AI and humans choose according to the above process. The occasions are rare when either AI or humans are forced to a random guess, but both humans and AI can do random if they have to do so.

IJ's point about religion is a more fertile one. Religions typically involve stories and theatre which are expressive media involved with affect. I don't know if AI can deal in affect which is invariably about the dynamic subject vis a vis her dynamic environment.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Gertie »

IreneJohnson wrote: January 29th, 2022, 1:42 am No it cannot. We are conscious in that we have the ability to make an impulsive decision. A computer technology could make only the rational one. For instance, it is impossible to implement religion of any sort into a computer.
Welcome Irene :)

I think the more fundamental question is whether AI is capable of manifesting any form of conscious experience, potentially including types we might not recognise as such. And we don't know, because we don't know the role the substrate (physical stuff) plays, whether there is something about organic brains which is a necessary condition for conscious experience.

But lets assume that AI does potentially possess the necessary and sufficient conditions for conscious experience. Perhaps because it's the nature of brains' connectivity which somehow manifests consciousness, and the substrate is irrelevant.

If we could then construct a program which replicated your brain's neural interactions from moment to moment, why wouldn't it also mimic all your conscious states, including your impulses, religious beliefs and everything else?
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