Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:18 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 10:38 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 11:14 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 7:52 am So in your Mind I have to defend that Thermostats are not Conscious, rather than you Explaining how they are Conscious. You don't want to debate, you just want to play games.
🤣 No, I don't want to play games, nor do I want to 'debate', if by that you mean point-scoring, winner/loser, debate. I would like to understand your position, which makes little sense to me.

I don't believe that we can describe a thermostat as 'conscious', unless we are indulging in really esoteric, spiritual, discussion, which (I think) is a different subject to what we are discussing here. So we are in agreement there.
No matter how often you correct the straw man misrepresentation, it is simply repeated. This happens too often.

Steve, since you clearly do not understand what is being said, all you have offered are straw men and your single speculative hypothesis about the One Mind.

Given that all hypotheses regarding the overall nature of consciousness have flaws - yes, even yours - it's worth exploring different ideas and seeing where they lead.
I never said I believe in a One Mind concept. Different Ideas are just fine when considering Conscious Experience, but if you are agreeing with Kaku that Thermostats have some kind of Conscious Experience then as I said before you have to make the argument in some way, and somehow. I need more than just you or Kaku saying it. In my way of thinking, it is an Incoherent starting point to think that Thermostats are slightly Conscious. What does that even mean. If Thermostats are slightly Conscious then that could only be realized after we get the first Clue about what a Human Conscious Experience might be.
Ok, fair enough.

Still, I would not discount an idea on the basis of who says it.

I think of reactivity as a continuum of reaction complexity. What we think of as "consciousness" would be just a sliver on that continuum, just as visible light is just a sliver of the EM spectrum.

Like many continua in nature, there are some emergences along the way of the complexity of reactivity continuum. Humans mentality is one of those emergences, but complexity of reactivity still occurs as a continuum. Some reactions are very simple, eg. iron turning to rust, and some are extremely complex, eg. thoughts.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Sy Borg wrote: April 4th, 2022, 6:37 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:18 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 10:38 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 11:14 am

🤣 No, I don't want to play games, nor do I want to 'debate', if by that you mean point-scoring, winner/loser, debate. I would like to understand your position, which makes little sense to me.

I don't believe that we can describe a thermostat as 'conscious', unless we are indulging in really esoteric, spiritual, discussion, which (I think) is a different subject to what we are discussing here. So we are in agreement there.
No matter how often you correct the straw man misrepresentation, it is simply repeated. This happens too often.

Steve, since you clearly do not understand what is being said, all you have offered are straw men and your single speculative hypothesis about the One Mind.

Given that all hypotheses regarding the overall nature of consciousness have flaws - yes, even yours - it's worth exploring different ideas and seeing where they lead.
I never said I believe in a One Mind concept. Different Ideas are just fine when considering Conscious Experience, but if you are agreeing with Kaku that Thermostats have some kind of Conscious Experience then as I said before you have to make the argument in some way, and somehow. I need more than just you or Kaku saying it. In my way of thinking, it is an Incoherent starting point to think that Thermostats are slightly Conscious. What does that even mean. If Thermostats are slightly Conscious then that could only be realized after we get the first Clue about what a Human Conscious Experience might be.
Ok, fair enough.

Still, I would not discount an idea on the basis of who says it.

I think of reactivity as a continuum of reaction complexity. What we think of as "consciousness" would be just a sliver on that continuum, just as visible light is just a sliver of the EM spectrum.

Like many continua in nature, there are some emergences along the way of the complexity of reactivity continuum. Humans mentality is one of those emergences, but complexity of reactivity still occurs as a continuum. Some reactions are very simple, eg. iron turning to rust, and some are extremely complex, eg. thoughts.
I discount the idea that Thermostats are slightly Conscious no matter who says it.

Your analogy about reactions is not Sensible. Are you trying to say that Conscious Experience is some sort of Chemical Reaction? Maybe it is, but you can't just say it. The Reaction analogy is completely Incoherent without some Logical backing.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 1:15 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:09 am Of course you want to debate and score points or you wouldn't be on these forums.
I just told you I didn't. I regret that you think I am lying.
Not Lying, just Fooling yourself.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:09 am Of course you want to debate and score points or you wouldn't be on these forums.
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 1:15 pm I just told you I didn't. I regret that you think I am lying.
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 7:49 am Not Lying, just Fooling yourself.
It's remarkable how you can know the inside of my mind better than I do.

I don't tell lies. It's something many autists are Very Strongly committed to: we don't like dishonesty of any sort. But what would I know? 🙄
Pattern-chaser

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:05 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:09 am Of course you want to debate and score points or you wouldn't be on these forums.
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 1:15 pm I just told you I didn't. I regret that you think I am lying.
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 7:49 am Not Lying, just Fooling yourself.
It's remarkable how you can know the inside of my mind better than I do.

I don't tell lies. It's something many autists are Very Strongly committed to: we don't like dishonesty of any sort. But what would I know? 🙄
I just said: Not Lying.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 7:47 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 4th, 2022, 6:37 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:18 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 10:38 pm
No matter how often you correct the straw man misrepresentation, it is simply repeated. This happens too often.

Steve, since you clearly do not understand what is being said, all you have offered are straw men and your single speculative hypothesis about the One Mind.

Given that all hypotheses regarding the overall nature of consciousness have flaws - yes, even yours - it's worth exploring different ideas and seeing where they lead.
I never said I believe in a One Mind concept. Different Ideas are just fine when considering Conscious Experience, but if you are agreeing with Kaku that Thermostats have some kind of Conscious Experience then as I said before you have to make the argument in some way, and somehow. I need more than just you or Kaku saying it. In my way of thinking, it is an Incoherent starting point to think that Thermostats are slightly Conscious. What does that even mean. If Thermostats are slightly Conscious then that could only be realized after we get the first Clue about what a Human Conscious Experience might be.
Ok, fair enough.

Still, I would not discount an idea on the basis of who says it.

I think of reactivity as a continuum of reaction complexity. What we think of as "consciousness" would be just a sliver on that continuum, just as visible light is just a sliver of the EM spectrum.

Like many continua in nature, there are some emergences along the way of the complexity of reactivity continuum. Humans mentality is one of those emergences, but complexity of reactivity still occurs as a continuum. Some reactions are very simple, eg. iron turning to rust, and some are extremely complex, eg. thoughts.
I discount the idea that Thermostats are slightly Conscious no matter who says it.

Your analogy about reactions is not Sensible. Are you trying to say that Conscious Experience is some sort of Chemical Reaction? Maybe it is, but you can't just say it. The Reaction analogy is completely Incoherent without some Logical backing.
Of course conscious experience is a chemical reaction, actually millions of them. We are chemical beings. Life started with complex organic chemistry and extrapolated from there.

Thus, the spectrum of complexity of reactivity. Our reactivity is so complex that we give it a name, "consciousness".
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Vita »

My opinion is that to be conscious you need a link between the brain and at least one sense. One cannot experience with no means of doing so. Therefore AI cannot be conscious because it cannot experience things without senses.

Kind of like the blind men and the elephant except the men have no senses. Therefore they are not aware of each other or the elephant and therefore are not conscious.
any ideas?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

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Vita wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:42 pm My opinion is that to be conscious you need a link between the brain and at least one sense. One cannot experience with no means of doing so. Therefore AI cannot be conscious because it cannot experience things without senses.
But doesn't data incoming to the (AI) computer serve the same purpose as incoming sensory data for a biological being like a human?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:07 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:05 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:09 am Of course you want to debate and score points or you wouldn't be on these forums.
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 1:15 pm I just told you I didn't. I regret that you think I am lying.
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 7:49 am Not Lying, just Fooling yourself.
It's remarkable how you can know the inside of my mind better than I do.

I don't tell lies. It's something many autists are Very Strongly committed to: we don't like dishonesty of any sort. But what would I know? 🙄
I just said: Not Lying.
So I am here to score your childish points, something that you know, even though I do not? It's remarkable how you can tell from that distance. Do you also happen to know my views on "Can a man-made computer become conscious?"? That way, you could just tell me what I think, and save me the trouble...
Pattern-chaser

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Sy Borg wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:14 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 7:47 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 4th, 2022, 6:37 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:18 am
I never said I believe in a One Mind concept. Different Ideas are just fine when considering Conscious Experience, but if you are agreeing with Kaku that Thermostats have some kind of Conscious Experience then as I said before you have to make the argument in some way, and somehow. I need more than just you or Kaku saying it. In my way of thinking, it is an Incoherent starting point to think that Thermostats are slightly Conscious. What does that even mean. If Thermostats are slightly Conscious then that could only be realized after we get the first Clue about what a Human Conscious Experience might be.
Ok, fair enough.

Still, I would not discount an idea on the basis of who says it.

I think of reactivity as a continuum of reaction complexity. What we think of as "consciousness" would be just a sliver on that continuum, just as visible light is just a sliver of the EM spectrum.

Like many continua in nature, there are some emergences along the way of the complexity of reactivity continuum. Humans mentality is one of those emergences, but complexity of reactivity still occurs as a continuum. Some reactions are very simple, eg. iron turning to rust, and some are extremely complex, eg. thoughts.
I discount the idea that Thermostats are slightly Conscious no matter who says it.

Your analogy about reactions is not Sensible. Are you trying to say that Conscious Experience is some sort of Chemical Reaction? Maybe it is, but you can't just say it. The Reaction analogy is completely Incoherent without some Logical backing.
Of course conscious experience is a chemical reaction, actually millions of them. We are chemical beings. Life started with complex organic chemistry and extrapolated from there.

Thus, the spectrum of complexity of reactivity. Our reactivity is so complex that we give it a name, "consciousness".
So Conscious Experience is related to Complexity in Physical Matter with your way of thinking. Maybe so. I think Conscious Experience already exists outside of the Physical Universe. When a Conscious Mind gets connected to a Brain then the Conscious Experience becomes Correlated with Neural Activity. In my way of thinking the Brain is just an Electrochemical, Mechanistic, Unconscious tool that the Conscious Mind uses. No Physical Matter is Conscious, but Physical Matter is Connected to Consciousness. We are at an Impasse.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SteveKlinko »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 5th, 2022, 4:58 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:07 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:05 am
SteveKlinko wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 11:09 am Of course you want to debate and score points or you wouldn't be on these forums.
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 3rd, 2022, 1:15 pm I just told you I didn't. I regret that you think I am lying.
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 7:49 am Not Lying, just Fooling yourself.
It's remarkable how you can know the inside of my mind better than I do.

I don't tell lies. It's something many autists are Very Strongly committed to: we don't like dishonesty of any sort. But what would I know? 🙄
I just said: Not Lying.
So I am here to score your childish points, something that you know, even though I do not? It's remarkable how you can tell from that distance. Do you also happen to know my views on "Can a man-made computer become conscious?"? That way, you could just tell me what I think, and save me the trouble...
If you think Thermostats are slightly Conscious and if you want to waste time with a starting position like that for your studies then go for it. I cannot start with the weird premise that Thermostats are Conscious. So we are at an Impasse.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 5th, 2022, 11:24 am If you think Thermostats are slightly Conscious and if you want to waste time with a starting position like that for your studies then go for it. I cannot start with the weird premise that Thermostats are Conscious. So we are at an Impasse.
As I have already said to you:
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 2nd, 2022, 11:14 am I don't believe that we can describe a thermostat as 'conscious', unless we are indulging in really esoteric, spiritual, discussion, which (I think) is a different subject to what we are discussing here. So we are in agreement there.
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Sy Borg »

SteveKlinko wrote: April 5th, 2022, 11:17 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 4th, 2022, 8:14 pm
SteveKlinko wrote: April 4th, 2022, 7:47 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 4th, 2022, 6:37 am
Ok, fair enough.

Still, I would not discount an idea on the basis of who says it.

I think of reactivity as a continuum of reaction complexity. What we think of as "consciousness" would be just a sliver on that continuum, just as visible light is just a sliver of the EM spectrum.

Like many continua in nature, there are some emergences along the way of the complexity of reactivity continuum. Humans mentality is one of those emergences, but complexity of reactivity still occurs as a continuum. Some reactions are very simple, eg. iron turning to rust, and some are extremely complex, eg. thoughts.
I discount the idea that Thermostats are slightly Conscious no matter who says it.

Your analogy about reactions is not Sensible. Are you trying to say that Conscious Experience is some sort of Chemical Reaction? Maybe it is, but you can't just say it. The Reaction analogy is completely Incoherent without some Logical backing.
Of course conscious experience is a chemical reaction, actually millions of them. We are chemical beings. Life started with complex organic chemistry and extrapolated from there.

Thus, the spectrum of complexity of reactivity. Our reactivity is so complex that we give it a name, "consciousness".
So Conscious Experience is related to Complexity in Physical Matter with your way of thinking. Maybe so. I think Conscious Experience already exists outside of the Physical Universe. When a Conscious Mind gets connected to a Brain then the Conscious Experience becomes Correlated with Neural Activity. In my way of thinking the Brain is just an Electrochemical, Mechanistic, Unconscious tool that the Conscious Mind uses. No Physical Matter is Conscious, but Physical Matter is Connected to Consciousness. We are at an Impasse.
Steve, we seem to agree that evidence for the relationship between certain kinds of interconnected complexity and consciousness is clear, even if the details of how things function are a work in progress.

By contrast, evidence for conscious experience existing outside of the physical universe is entirely anecdotal. That's not to say it's untrue, but it's currently unprovable.

I think part of the issue is that human consciousness is overrated, just as humans overrate everything about themselves. The dynamic is akin to a vain person who spends a lot of time looking at their own reflection and obsesses over subtle attributes and flaws. The more we look at other parts of nature, the more we see commonalities, and the more we appreciate non-human complexity, which tends to be significantly underestimated.

In that, the dynamic reminds me of people I used to work with who carried on as though their job was the busiest, most difficult and most important job in the organisation. I think we have all met these types :lol:
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Vita »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 5th, 2022, 4:54 am
Vita wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:42 pm My opinion is that to be conscious you need a link between the brain and at least one sense. One cannot experience with no means of doing so. Therefore AI cannot be conscious because it cannot experience things without senses.
But doesn't data incoming to the (AI) computer serve the same purpose as incoming sensory data for a biological being like a human?
If one were to touch a live coal, one would involuntarily cry out in pain. An AI would receive the information but its reaction would be programmed/learned and therefore not a conscious one.

To put it simply, our reactions are more than “incoming sensory data”.
any ideas?
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi »

Vita wrote: April 5th, 2022, 11:21 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 5th, 2022, 4:54 am
Vita wrote: April 4th, 2022, 10:42 pm My opinion is that to be conscious you need a link between the brain and at least one sense. One cannot experience with no means of doing so. Therefore AI cannot be conscious because it cannot experience things without senses.
But doesn't data incoming to the (AI) computer serve the same purpose as incoming sensory data for a biological being like a human?
If one were to touch a live coal, one would involuntarily cry out in pain. An AI would receive the information but its reaction would be programmed/learned and therefore not a conscious one.

To put it simply, our reactions are more than “incoming sensory data”.
Computers react to stimuli and so do living beings. Unlike living beings, computers lack sympathy for other living beings or artefacts including works of art. True, computers can generate works of art. But they lack sympathy for them.
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