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Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » March 20th, 2018, 7:14 am

Which would seem to imply that mass murderers like quite a few world leaders are unconscious. A fascinating thought.

I think that's right, Jan. It's usually believed that sociopaths and psychopaths are lacking in some aspect of consciousness. It's pretty obvious that many political leaders are psychopaths.

Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » March 20th, 2018, 7:56 am

Which would seem to imply that mass murderers like quite a few world leaders are unconscious. A fascinating thought.

I think that's right, Jan. It's usually believed that sociopaths and psychopaths are lacking in some aspect of consciousness. It's pretty obvious that many political leaders are psychopaths.

My message was deemed to contain too few characters so this should augment the number of characters. idxhhr reiow,m

Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » March 20th, 2018, 9:20 am

Whatever lack of consciousness they may have had missing it seems not to have disabled them sufficiently to prevent their ability to create fundamental disaster. And that they obviously seemed quite efficient to have persuaded much of humanity to have followed them it seems consciousness is a very rare human capability indeed. Clear evidence that the bulk of humans are zombies.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » March 20th, 2018, 11:45 am

Jan Sand wrote:
March 20th, 2018, 9:20 am
Whatever lack of consciousness they may have had missing it seems not to have disabled them sufficiently to prevent their ability to create fundamental disaster. And that they obviously seemed quite efficient to have persuaded much of humanity to have followed them it seems consciousness is a very rare human capability indeed. Clear evidence that the bulk of humans are zombies.
Consciousness/conscience is a relative quality. The more the conscience the further from machine.

Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » March 20th, 2018, 12:30 pm

The qualities of conscience vary immensely between individuals and cultures and the average computer is neither designed nor programmed to operate within matters of conscience. The average government or business is equally deficient in these matters so to evaluate machines and people in these matters is a matter of intent and design. Design, these days, seems much more agile than culture in these matters.

Wayne92587
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Wayne92587 » March 24th, 2018, 12:55 pm

Consciousness requires anticipation.

Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » March 24th, 2018, 1:35 pm

The word "cipation", according to a brief search on the net is unknown. Therefore, "anti" which means against indicates that anticipation could well mean against the unknown or knowledge. So it boils down to that consciousness requires knowledge. I agree.

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Greta
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Greta » March 24th, 2018, 8:19 pm

No no no. The gaggle of morally deficient leaders and other borderline psychopaths currently jostling for power and influence are not less conscious than other people, just especially blinkered in their focus on "playing the game" and thus they are "not conscious" of the broader ramifications of their power plays. But that on which they do focus, is focused on intensely.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » March 24th, 2018, 8:39 pm

The term you offer, "blinkered" is merely another word which indicates unseeing, a form of disability displayed by large numbers of powerful people who are mentally crippled to comprehend that suffering and punishment is not the way to order society. This is a fundamental lack in much of society and it is destroying us all. It is a lack of consciousness that all living things require very special care to nurture the best in us.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » March 25th, 2018, 3:05 pm

Greta wrote:
March 24th, 2018, 8:19 pm
No no no. The gaggle of morally deficient leaders and other borderline psychopaths currently jostling for power and influence are not less conscious than other people, just especially blinkered in their focus on "playing the game" and thus they are "not conscious" of the broader ramifications of their power plays. But that on which they do focus, is focused on intensely.
I'm captivated by Augustine's "evil is absence of good" i.e. good is the default. Yet I can see the problem your way too. I think we are lacking a definition of 'consciousness'. I'm defining consciousness as a means to good. You define it as value neutral, unless efficiency is a value.

However, doesn't there have to be something lacking, something deficient, in a person who isn't conscious of broader ramifications? Isn't focus as intense as that of the powerful psychopath abnormal? Taking maintenance of life for the criterion the species cannot support more than a critical proportion of ethically abnormal individuals, although there may well come a time when for instance a large proportion of overly focused mathematicians are needed.

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Greta
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Greta » March 25th, 2018, 4:28 pm

Belindi wrote:
March 25th, 2018, 3:05 pm
Greta wrote:
March 24th, 2018, 8:19 pm
No no no. The gaggle of morally deficient leaders and other borderline psychopaths currently jostling for power and influence are not less conscious than other people, just especially blinkered in their focus on "playing the game" and thus they are "not conscious" of the broader ramifications of their power plays. But that on which they do focus, is focused on intensely.
I'm captivated by Augustine's "evil is absence of good" i.e. good is the default. Yet I can see the problem your way too. I think we are lacking a definition of 'consciousness'. I'm defining consciousness as a means to good. You define it as value neutral, unless efficiency is a value.
I agree with evil being the absence of good if we consider the good to be mature, learned and wise and evil to be selfish, atavistic and immature. Thus we could be said to be "born into sin" (ie. selfish little beasts) and gaining redemption with learning.

"Consciousness as a means to good" only rings true to me to the extent that a "more conscious" person is more likely to be responsive to reason - and it's the lack of care and interest in reason and reasonableness what could be thought of as "evil" (although, as you know, I think of evil as immaturity). It is not only a refusal to cooperate but a refusal to even hear out others to even know if cooperation is possible.

Consciousness is a means to survival and what conscious beings do, like digestion. Just that brains deal with information (basically small and subtle energies with leveraging potential) while digestion processes more powerful energies.

We have much time and opportunity to mull this question over, given the length of this thread, and I expect during this time our ideas have probably changed and evolved since its early days. The more I think about it, the more I think that our kind of emotional consciousness is dying out, to be replaced by the pure rationalism of our creations. You can even see it in humanity's evolving cultures - becoming ever less emotion, ever more controlled and rational.

The delightful anarchic quality of life that we enjoy today will be perceived in the future as gross and selfish, which is how we would perceive the actions of a time-travelling primitive man transported into today's relatively relatively genteel environment, who joyfully spots a soft little dog on the street, breaks its neck and starts eating it raw. There appears to be a constant move towards ever more sterile civility - although that just seems "normal" for each ensuing generation - it's older people who find this problematic (eg. the current neurotic over-focus on political correctness) because they remember the freedoms and simple pleasures of the past.

Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » March 26th, 2018, 12:14 am

I am sorry to observe that the simplistic divisions within human thought such as good and evil have little if any relevance to the basic functioning of society and interpersonal relationships. What is good for one sector is bad for another. Good and evil are the two faces of the same coin. Human society is obviously incompetent for caring for the bulk of humanity, and this incompetence seems to lie within the basic motivations of the species. Any clear look at the directions of the ends of society indicate violent destruction for both humanity and much of life on the planet and no solution for this terrible end seems forthcoming. Some sort of robotic life may endure after humanity has destroyed itself but the current situation there is too premature to see much success. I am not either happy over this conclusion nor can I offer any means of avoiding it.

Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » March 26th, 2018, 7:11 am

Greta wrote:(Belindi)
I'm captivated by Augustine's "evil is absence of good" i.e. good is the default. Yet I can see the problem your way too. I think we are lacking a definition of 'consciousness'. I'm defining consciousness as a means to good. You define it as value neutral, unless efficiency is a value.
(Greta) I agree with evil being the absence of good if we consider the good to be mature, learned and wise and evil to be selfish, atavistic and immature. Thus we could be said to be "born into sin" (ie. selfish little beasts) and gaining redemption with learning.
[/quote]
I like Spinoza . His 'adequate ideas' do if I'm not mistaken fulfil the conditions which you describe as "mature, learned and wise".I think the psychologists would place those traits with reflectivity not impulsivity. I understand that Spinoza called those ideas "adequate" which followed deductive reasoning .
"Consciousness as a means to good" only rings true to me to the extent that a "more conscious" person is more likely to be responsive to reason - and it's the lack of care and interest in reason and reasonableness what could be thought of as "evil" (although, as you know, I think of evil as immaturity). It is not only a refusal to cooperate but a refusal to even hear out others to even know if cooperation is possible.
I think that reason is intrinsic to consciousness. I'd say that the better the reasoning the better the consciousness. N.B I include with reason the innate altruism connected with the frontal lobes. (Please see Antonio Damasio)
Consciousness is a means to survival and what conscious beings do, like digestion. Just that brains deal with information (basically small and subtle energies with leveraging potential) while digestion processes more powerful energies.
I'm reading Clifford Geertz and have been persuaded that culture (what you call information) cannot be separated from the human at any stage of his evolution, and is a contributory cause of his physique including his big cranium..
We have much time and opportunity to mull this question over, given the length of this thread, and I expect during this time our ideas have probably changed and evolved since its early days. The more I think about it, the more I think that our kind of emotional consciousness is dying out, to be replaced by the pure rationalism of our creations. You can even see it in humanity's evolving cultures - becoming ever less emotion, ever more controlled and rational.
It's not possible in practice to separate feelings from reason. People who had elective or accidental frontal lobectomies were reason-deficient with regard to social interactions. Moreover on an optimistic note we see American revival of feelings among young students insisting upon gun law reform. The media also report on Lt. Col. Arnaud Beltrame . https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 71781.html There is a lot of high quality reason in the world. I don't deny there is ignorance and disease, or that evil is powerful. History is not at the end yet.

The delightful anarchic quality of life that we enjoy today will be perceived in the future as gross and selfish, which is how we would perceive the actions of a time-travelling primitive man transported into today's relatively relatively genteel environment, who joyfully spots a soft little dog on the street, breaks its neck and starts eating it raw. There appears to be a constant move towards ever more sterile civility - although that just seems "normal" for each ensuing generation - it's older people who find this problematic (eg. the current neurotic over-focus on political correctness) because they remember the freedoms and simple pleasures of the past.
The nice thing, the only nice thing, about the old time God was that He was an object of prayer. Pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps is not what we are doing as you explain we go from one damn thing to another damn thing. Fight the good fight , Greta!

Wayne92587
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Wayne92587 » March 26th, 2018, 11:56 am

The term Consciousness is use only in reference to the awakening of the right brain, that which is above, the left brain being born of and subject to the dust if the ground.

When Man, Mankind, he and she are first born the Right Brain is Unconscious, without form, shape, design, is void like an empty cup.

The contents, the consciousness, of the right brain being ex nihilo, born of Nothingness, the air, is a “Creation”.

Wayne92587
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Wayne92587 » March 26th, 2018, 1:13 pm

Consciousness, the source of Priori Knowledge, of Rationalizations, being all knowing, is the source, generator, of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, knowledge having a dual quality, consciousness having crooked bent, causing Mankind to be Guileful.

Many are so closed minded, full of it, as to be unconscious.

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