Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » June 20th, 2018, 4:23 am

Greta wrote:
Nature has its own version. People (and others) are not punished for being bad, rather they are punished for being weak, slow, soft, dumb, gentle, fearful or unlucky. Our ancestors were the strong, fast, smart, aggressive, brave and lucky.
Socialism and the ethics of reason i.e. meritocracy, favours the strong, fast, smart,aggressive, brave, and lucky. At this time the fight is engaged to improve social mobility and lessen the wealth differential.

Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » June 20th, 2018, 4:45 am

Along with global warming which should devastate the bulk of vital agriculture within a mere few decades and provoke world wide conflict about billions of refugees, plus the massive destruction of all sorts of animals which are sorely needed to maintain planetary life, the incredibly stupid social systems that are destroying plant life which produces vital oxygen, the wide use of chemical poisons for various purposes, the hair trigger nuclear missile systems and the downright moronic national leaderships indicate the bulk of current civilization will see to it that whoever survives the oncoming catastrophes will succumb soon after. You and I will have lots of company when we vanish.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » June 20th, 2018, 2:20 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
June 20th, 2018, 4:45 am
Along with global warming which should devastate the bulk of vital agriculture within a mere few decades and provoke world wide conflict about billions of refugees, plus the massive destruction of all sorts of animals which are sorely needed to maintain planetary life, the incredibly stupid social systems that are destroying plant life which produces vital oxygen, the wide use of chemical poisons for various purposes, the hair trigger nuclear missile systems and the downright moronic national leaderships indicate the bulk of current civilization will see to it that whoever survives the oncoming catastrophes will succumb soon after. You and I will have lots of company when we vanish.
INstead of writing that you could have eaten some ice cream, taken a nice walk, helps someone suffer less...
made things more pleasurable or pleasant for yourself or someone else.

I mean if you really believe what you say.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » June 20th, 2018, 2:30 pm

I am not suffering. I enjoy being alive but do not kid myself about what is going on. Neither ice cream nor alcohol nor any stronger drug will heal that disaster. If you don't face reality it will chew up you and spit out the bones.

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » June 20th, 2018, 4:43 pm

I did not say it would heal that disaster and I can't see how that POSSIBLY could be taken as what I meant or thought.

If you think it is inevitable, which is how you present it, why don't you enjoy life as much as you can and/or perform some acts of kindness?

If you don't think it is inevitable, why present it that way?

Given your question it seems like you do not think it is inevitable. Why present it that way then?

Pointing out severe threats, painting them as likely can motivate.

Painting the situation as hopeless does not motivate.

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Mark1955
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Mark1955 » June 20th, 2018, 4:49 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
June 19th, 2018, 10:12 am
And, of course, that elimination process would make the removers unethical, by many acceptable standards.
You could eliminate them from society by deciding they were criminals [due to their unethical behaviour] and were to be restrained until they died. Just like we do now.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » June 20th, 2018, 4:52 pm

Further JS

I think it is odd you do not suffer. I also enjoy life, but the threats you are talking do cause me suffering, even though I do not think it is inevitable, which is how you present it.

The thought that all humans will die does not bother you?

I really find your motivations hard to understand. It isnt empathy or self-concern that drives you to tell people they will all die and their children will die. It isn't in the hope that they will change somehow.

You are enjoying life and not suffering.

Sorry that just doesn't all fit together for me.

Perhaps it is just poor rhetoric on your part. You think that making it seem inevitable is the only way to reach people. I think that shows a poor sense of psychology.

Perhaps when you say you are not suffering, you are just being defensive, and think this would be some kind of failure or weakness. If so, all I can say is, not to me. It would be natural and even a sign of a compassionate person.

But I will drop the issue since it is to the man and not the topic.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » June 21st, 2018, 12:32 am

As you have indicated quite clearly, you do not grasp the problem and you totally reject that one can be aware of massive horrors that have afflicted the world for many thousands of years and accept that there seems to be something in humanity that refuses to fix them. Even in my lifetime many millions have unnecessarily suffered and died in WWII, Korea, south east Asia, and the Middle East, and I have the good sense to take advantage of personal circumstances and enjoy what I could. I cannot convince everybody to behave so I live my life as best as I can.Much of the basis of life is undeniably cruel but one life is all I have so I take pleasure at what is available. Active humanity has existed for about two hundred thousand years which is a mere moment in time and is energetically active in destroying life on the planet and that is a skill I cannot confront and turn around. I will be dead in a few years and will miss the worst times and I am grateful for that. I am fully aware of my limits in changing anything. No doubt, humanity is rather unique bu it will soon pass away and it is far beyond my abilities to stop that. If life continues after humanity it is likely to create new and interesting forms equally unique so I don't worry about that. If it survives and manages to lengthen its life beyond four years, the octopus has great potential.Perhaps it will be more sensible than humanity.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » June 21st, 2018, 4:49 am

Jan Sand wrote:
June 20th, 2018, 4:45 am
Along with global warming which should devastate the bulk of vital agriculture within a mere few decades and provoke world wide conflict about billions of refugees, plus the massive destruction of all sorts of animals which are sorely needed to maintain planetary life, the incredibly stupid social systems that are destroying plant life which produces vital oxygen, the wide use of chemical poisons for various purposes, the hair trigger nuclear missile systems and the downright moronic national leaderships indicate the bulk of current civilization will see to it that whoever survives the oncoming catastrophes will succumb soon after. You and I will have lots of company when we vanish.


All of Jan's futurology, above, is undeniable. This is the apocalypse and is happening now. I wish that people on a philosophy forum of all places would agree that this is happening. At least we can be aware of it.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » June 21st, 2018, 5:18 am

CONSEQUENCE

When all is said at what is done, how the sum is tabulated

Whereupon our mechanism manufactures vital jism

Promoting consequence of enduring ism that duels nows

To murder them onto the kitchen middens of history and philosophy

Remains a mystery.

Decisions’ thunderbolts confront the blunt necessities of survival.

The ifs and hows flow constantly in rushing streams of possibilities

That thrash and smash with no concern of meteoric trajectory

Or whether Hiroshima might descend into atomic night

Or when or why Rome might burn. Each turn of the second hand

Lays out that Godlike demand where suns vanish into the unknowable

And galaxies bloom from dust while frogs and honeybees succumb to disease.

The ingenuities of chaos copulates in chronological delight wherein we molecules

Surrender to the gratuities of fate, to the amusing dance of fools whose wisdoms

Fluctuate on mental digestive gases which masquerades as ideology.

There is small recompense to percolate patterns of sense out of the fields of perpetuity

That bow and submit to the undecipherable.

Every end becomes a new beginning to seam the seems of fluctuating dreams

Where witnessing must become sufficient in our dewdrop of existence.

Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » June 21st, 2018, 8:18 am

Is witnessing enough to restore some dignity?

Jan Sand
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » June 21st, 2018, 9:45 am

My dignity rests lightly on the average level of one bacterium on a slice of Roquefort cheese and to believe more is simply arrogance. I am quite happy for the chance to temporarily exist on an irrelevant planet in a solar system of no noticeable import.

Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » June 21st, 2018, 2:04 pm

Jan Sand wrote:
June 21st, 2018, 9:45 am
My dignity rests lightly on the average level of one bacterium on a slice of Roquefort cheese and to believe more is simply arrogance. I am quite happy for the chance to temporarily exist on an irrelevant planet in a solar system of no noticeable import.


Me too. But I meant the human species. It's hard to let go of after all we might be more angels than devils.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Jan Sand » June 21st, 2018, 2:30 pm

This simplified judgment system of good and evil is a delusion out of religion and has not much to do with real human psychology. The bulk of humans adapt to the conditions that permit them to exist within whatever context the find themselves. Soldiers murder on command and police shoot defenseless unarmed citizens out of the permissiveness of their situation and regularly lie about it because that is the system. Corporations and government agencies operate under economic pressures and millions of people die in idiotic ideological directions because the social context demands it. This is not evil. Hannah Arendt had it down right. People take the safest way out of a bad situation and they always will react that way unless they are very unusual people. It's not about evil, it's about basic psychology and I doubt humans have the inner strength to pull themselves out of the coming disaster. Perhaps stupidity is the correct label.

Belindi
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Belindi » June 22nd, 2018, 2:36 am

Jan Sand wrote:
The bulk of humans adapt to the conditions that permit them to exist within whatever context the find themselves.
Perhaps your scenario is incomplete. Religions lay down the moral laws whichever apply to that society. For instance the UK is largely a post-Christian society and Christian ethics are largely presumed to be the best. Most people don't live by those ethics all the time but most know about them, and only sociopaths, as Melania's coat, don't care. So there is light in the darkness. Religions are not ideologies unless they become politicised or otherwise rationalised and turned into idolatries.

Unlike bacteria you and I look to good that transcends the world and don't live by bread alone.

As to my use of Biblical expressions I am not religiously indoctrinated and I can be objective. If you inspect your own prose and poetry I bet you could find Biblical metaphors and even some Biblical attitudes, along with the Shakespearean ones. One cannot think in or communicate in a private language.
Even as we engage in the apocalypse we still love beauty.

Let's also think of soldiers, trained killers who murder to order. Many of the common soldiers who obey orders hate what they do. Also there are just wars.

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