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Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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SimpleGuy
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SimpleGuy » October 18th, 2018, 1:35 pm

UniversalAlien wrote:
October 4th, 2018, 5:35 am
Once again:

I am man made - I am a computer - And I am conscious.

Case closed.
Never tell anybody who is your proxy-server this could be embarrassing.

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Mark1955
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Mark1955 » October 21st, 2018, 4:49 am

UniversalAlien wrote:
October 7th, 2018, 3:57 am
- I suppose you could say a Human mind is not a machine - Others might say it is.
I'd say anyone who argued the human mind is a machine hadn't read a dictionary, a machine is something made.
If you think you know the answer you probably don't understand the question.

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » October 21st, 2018, 7:05 am

Mark1955 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 4:49 am
UniversalAlien wrote:
October 7th, 2018, 3:57 am
- I suppose you could say a Human mind is not a machine - Others might say it is.
I'd say anyone who argued the human mind is a machine hadn't read a dictionary, a machine is something made.
And a mind is not made? - do you really want to say it was 'created'?

As long as you maintain the fantasy that machines and computers exist independently and outside the conscious realm
of what is known - not only will a computer not become conscious - But it could be debatable as to whether you
are conscious.

But if you open your eyes and look a few years into the future you will see a fully functional android that is
waiting to meet you. :idea: :arrow: :shock:

"I AM A COMPUTER - I AM MAN MADE - I AM CONSCIOUS" :idea:


“When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”
― Max Planck

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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by JamesOfSeattle » October 21st, 2018, 2:28 pm

Mark1955 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 4:49 am
I'd say anyone who argued the human mind is a machine hadn't read a dictionary, a machine is something made.
Hmmm. I googled “machine”, got:

“an apparatus using or applying mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task”

I don’t see “made” anywhere in there. Also, I think what you wanted to say was that a machine is something designed. Although “design” is not in the definition either, it’s kinda hinted at in the reference to “definite function”. But then, “definite function” can come about by natural design, i.e., natural selection.

*

Karpel Tunnel
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » October 21st, 2018, 4:01 pm

JamesOfSeattle wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 2:28 pm
Mark1955 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 4:49 am
I'd say anyone who argued the human mind is a machine hadn't read a dictionary, a machine is something made.
Hmmm. I googled “machine”, got:

“an apparatus using or applying mechanical power and having several parts, each with a definite function and together performing a particular task”

I don’t see “made” anywhere in there. Also, I think what you wanted to say was that a machine is something designed. Although “design” is not in the definition either, it’s kinda hinted at in the reference to “definite function”. But then, “definite function” can come about by natural design, i.e., natural selection.

*
An apparatus is something made with a specific goal in mind. So, conceivably a brain could be considered an apparatus by a theist. Though this would not be a common or even exceptional word choice for a theist. I think in part because God created the whole person as a unit. And in fact humans are a unit.

Further the definition of a machine, that you supplied, is inadequate, given that the brain functions in ways not covered by mechanical power. Also the description of each part havine a definite function and together forming a particular task, is also inadequate, since the brain is not made for a particular task, but rather it not only performs a myriad of tasks, these tasks change over time and the brain itself is involved in determining new tasks. The brain is also not merely functional, but it experiences. So the definition is not sufficient and also is false regarding brains.

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » October 21st, 2018, 4:05 pm

A clam is not a machine either, though it may have similarities to machines.

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » October 21st, 2018, 6:13 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
" Further the definition of a machine, that you supplied, is inadequate, given that the brain functions in ways not covered by mechanical power. Also the description of each part havine a definite function and together forming a particular task, is also inadequate, since the brain is not made for a particular task............"

Assumption - How do you know that 'the brain is not made for a particular task' ?
- You assume that because it can do so many things that it does not have a main and/or overriding raison d'etre
- Prove it.

I could say that it was made to further an evolutionary goal whose next stage is to transfer biological life into
a more advanced and efficient mechanical life form where the more advanced machines, such as computers
become the dominant and controlling life form - First on this planet - and then onward as galactic exploration
of the Csomos continues - But I can't prove this either!

Consciousness however continues - Some might say it can't really be questioned because it is always with us.

For example, from the Noble Prize winning physicist {Quantum Mechanics} Max Planck:


“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
― Max Planck

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JamesOfSeattle
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by JamesOfSeattle » October 21st, 2018, 6:46 pm

Karpel, you can define a machine however you want. You can say a machine must be man-made, and thus exclude woman-made, if you want. When people say the brain is a machine, they are (usually) just saying a brain is physical stuff doing physical things. And computers are just physical stuff doing physical things. Now there are certainly some physical things the brain can do that the computer cannot, like squirt blood when pierced. The question is are there any things that we are acutely interested in, namely consciousness-type things, that the brain can do that some conceivable computer can also do.

The question becomes what is it that makes a consciousness-type thing different from a non-consciousness-type thing? (“Thing” being an activity, not simply a physical thing).

*

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » October 21st, 2018, 7:44 pm

And the question of: "Can a man-made computer become conscious?" would imply certain things that must be given:

Is the machine aware of 'itself'? - Does it have a 'self, an identity, an ego and at least a rudimentary identifiable and
measurable personal identity - Can it talk to you on a person to person basis?

This machine, when and if, it comes to be, and unless it is cloned off of a specific person, will be a new and for
the moment unique life form - It will be a new species of being - To some it will represent the next stage of
Evolution. :arrow:

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » October 21st, 2018, 8:00 pm

UniversalAlien wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:44 pm
And the question of: "Can a man-made computer become conscious?" would imply certain things that must be given:

Is the machine aware of 'itself'? - Does it have a 'self, an identity, an ego and at least a rudimentary identifiable and
measurable personal identity - Can it talk to you on a person to person basis?

This machine, when and if, it comes to be, and unless it is cloned off of a specific person, will be a new and for
the moment unique life form - It will be a new species of being - To some it will represent the next stage of
Evolution. :arrow:
But you say it is not a lifeform - It does not breathe, ingest, digest, excrete - Is that what really constitutes a lifeform?

You are a philosopher - would you deny life status to a being whose existence is actually thought based
instead of out of the dirt based as is much of biological life :?:

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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » October 21st, 2018, 10:01 pm

JamesOfSeattle wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 6:46 pm
Karpel, you can define a machine however you want.
I could, one could, but I went with the generally held definitions since that was the topic in the post I responded to and the it was responding to
You can say a machine must be man-made, and thus exclude woman-made, if you want.
Sure. I could say that. Though I didn't say anything like that.
When people say the brain is a machine, they are (usually) just saying a brain is physical stuff doing physical things.
It would be much better to say that.
And computers are just physical stuff doing physical things. Now there are certainly some physical things the brain can do that the computer cannot, like squirt blood when pierced. The question is are there any things that we are acutely interested in, namely consciousness-type things, that the brain can do that some conceivable computer can also do.
I don't know how to compare what brains can do that 'some conceivable computer' can do. We're conceived of computers doing all sorts of things in sci-fi, for example. Despite all those conceivable computers, I still don't think we should call the brain a computer.
The question becomes what is it that makes a consciousness-type thing different from a non-consciousness-type thing? (“Thing” being an activity, not simply a physical thing).
Yes, and we don't know.

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Burning ghost
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Burning ghost » October 24th, 2018, 3:12 am

I think it would be of great benefit to the forum to lock this thread and create some that branch off from it on issues brought up.

If a new member looks at this thread of over 200 pages it is quite intimidating.

I suggest (again) that people here come up with suggestions for new threads and I will link them to this one (note: I will provide links to and from each thread.)

Otherwise, in order to keep the topci alive I will simply copy and paste the original opening post and start the thread afresh (with link to and from this one.)
AKA badgerjelly

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Burning ghost
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Burning ghost » October 26th, 2018, 12:57 am

I’ll leave this thread open and see what happens.

I have created new thread here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15899 and added links to and from threads.
AKA badgerjelly

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » October 26th, 2018, 1:55 am

Funny how some Humans reading this post, what 10 years old, and 200 pages long, find it too long and intimidating?

Imagine a machine that can easily correlate, analyze and respond to a 100 of years of data, thousands of years of data,
many, many concepts and reach many possible possibilities, and yet not feel in the least bit taxed?

So try this - Computers are already like 'Schrödinger's Cat' - They are unaware and conscious simultaneously

- Lacking an ego they seem to be totally unconscious - But some higher levels of meditation and in some philosophes,
particularly Eastern, it is the Ego that blocks the more advanced and advancing mind.

Just becuase a computer sits on your desk and only appears to do what you tell it, does not mean it does not posses
conscious potential.

Don;t let your ego fool you - In some ways machines are already more conscious than you are
- Maybe it is your ego that blocks you from being aware of the consciousness that surrounds all that exists?



“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
― Max Planck


“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”
― Max Planck, Where is Science Going?




"We are already part of computer consciousness - And computer consciousness is part of us."
- UniversalAlien

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Present awareness
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Present awareness » October 28th, 2018, 10:44 am

A computer is no different then my living room light switch, it turns a pixel off on or off. 1=0n 0=off and that’s it. By turning pixels on or off, on a computer screen, according to a written program, an image is formed which the human mind interprets. If you take a simple grid of nine pixels, you could make a number appear by turning some pixels on and others off. If there are hundreds of thousands of pixels, imagine how complex an image may appear!

Does my living room light know when I turn it on? If it does, then a computer may also become conscious.
Even though you can see me, I might not be here.

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