Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » October 31st, 2018, 3:34 am

Conscious AI {artificial intelligence} ?

Not ready yet - today?

Maybe tomorrow ?

Now available free on YouTube:

"Sync - The Movie"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhjimhX9d5U

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SimpleGuy
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SimpleGuy » November 7th, 2018, 6:17 am

UniversalAlien wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 7:05 am
Mark1955 wrote:
October 21st, 2018, 4:49 am

I'd say anyone who argued the human mind is a machine hadn't read a dictionary, a machine is something made.
And a mind is not made? - do you really want to say it was 'created'?

As long as you maintain the fantasy that machines and computers exist independently and outside the conscious realm
of what is known - not only will a computer not become conscious - But it could be debatable as to whether you
are conscious.

But if you open your eyes and look a few years into the future you will see a fully functional android that is
waiting to meet you. :idea: :arrow: :shock:

"I AM A COMPUTER - I AM MAN MADE - I AM CONSCIOUS" :idea:


“When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.”
― Max Planck
The difference are the most important physical states for computing. As a Computer is still a logic circuit the states are dependent on a finite set of Parameters , at least for the outcome of Information. The Neuron is a Quantum mechanical machine with by far more states dependent on Close to infinite bounding chemical Parameters inside and outside of the cell. The continuum and the stochastics based on Quantum mechanics are dependent to an enormous set of Parameters (chemistry inside the cell etc.) which can be called quasi-continous and even pertubative feeble.
The difference from stochastic quasi continous and finite states with a non stochastic Dynamics is enormous. Two one-egged twins, who are genetically indifferent, can think for the same Problem different with the same Information (due to other experiences as well other glimpses of their mind). Two Computers fed with the same program and the same Information do deliver always the same result. Nobody knows if creativity is something that can be better described via stochastic processes or not !!!

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » November 7th, 2018, 7:56 am

SimpleGuy wrote:

......... Two Computers fed with the same program and the same Information do deliver always the same result.........

Are you sure? - Can you prove this?

If I ask two computers what does 2 plus 2 equal I would assume they would both say 4.

But If I keep increasing the complexity of the question until the question becomes very complex and has more than
one possible answer, even multiple possible answers, and even though these machines are created to be identical
- They are not identical - even the most precisely made machines will vary slightly - the most complex electronic
circuitry will be slightly different no matter how precise the process of manufacture - No two machines are
'exactly' the same - No answer to a highly complex question is always the right answer.


“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”
― Max Planck

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UniversalAlien
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by UniversalAlien » November 7th, 2018, 8:26 am

.............

ALSO...........

In the TV game show 'Jeopardy' - a program where contestants must answer questions on a wide variety of subjects,
and where speed of answer, whoever rings in first gets to answer first........."Watson", an advanced IBM.......

"Watson is a question-answering computer system capable of answering questions posed in natural language,[2] developed in IBM's DeepQA project by a research team led by principal investigator David Ferrucci.[3] Watson was named after IBM's first CEO, industrialist Thomas J. Watson.[4][5]

The computer system was initially developed to answer questions on the quiz show Jeopardy![6] and, in 2011, the Watson computer system competed on Jeopardy! against legendary champions Brad Rutter and Ken Jennings[4][7] winning the first place prize of $1 million............."

See whole article here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_(computer)

I propose, that if a clone of Watson were created, manufactured to the same standards and in the same way as the
original Watson...........And we were to run the same questions as in the original Jeopardy program where Watson
won........Watson would most probably win again-----but variables would occur......not every question would always
produce the same correct answer......A cloned computer might be closer to identical than identical twins
- But would still not be 'exactly' the same - NO two things created by Man are exactly the same.

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Halc
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by Halc » November 7th, 2018, 12:34 pm

UniversalAlien wrote:
November 7th, 2018, 8:26 am
I propose, that if a clone of Watson were created, manufactured to the same standards and in the same way as the
original Watson...........And we were to run the same questions as in the original Jeopardy program where Watson
won........Watson would most probably win again
Of course it would. They made a machine that can do Jeopardy better than any human. That doesn't mean it would run identical to the last time. Variables as you say...
The machine is a simple trivia database with a search engine. The only thing AI about it is its ability to parse natural language, which is a task best learned and not programmed. Not sure if they implemented it that way.
A cloned computer might be closer to identical than identical twins
Given that Jeopardy 'answers' don't come from one's DNA, again, of course. You make it sound like identical twins would be pretty evenly matched at Jeopardy, where in fact one might be a trivial junkie and the other not.

The argument seems to be going in the direction of "computers can't be conscious because they're deterministic" but so are people in that regard, so it hardly seems to be an accurate measure of whether the thing can be considered conscious or not. I think soon the computer will be wanting to decide if we're conscious or not, and if it uses anything like the logic I see in this thread, it will decide we're not.

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SimpleGuy
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by SimpleGuy » November 8th, 2018, 7:28 am

UniversalAlien wrote:
November 7th, 2018, 7:56 am
SimpleGuy wrote:

......... Two Computers fed with the same program and the same Information do deliver always the same result.........

Are you sure? - Can you prove this?

If I ask two computers what does 2 plus 2 equal I would assume they would both say 4.

But If I keep increasing the complexity of the question until the question becomes very complex and has more than
one possible answer, even multiple possible answers, and even though these machines are created to be identical
- They are not identical - even the most precisely made machines will vary slightly - the most complex electronic
circuitry will be slightly different no matter how precise the process of manufacture - No two machines are
'exactly' the same - No answer to a highly complex question is always the right answer.


“We have no right to assume that any physical laws exist, or if they have existed up until now, that they will continue to exist in a similar manner in the future.”
― Max Planck
Well in most of These cases then invisible stack Information of the operating System is used, for different results of 2+2 . But for correctly build operating Systems, the result of the Task should stay the same unless one requires , file-System and operating System dependent Information.
If two Computer Systems (including their file System and their operating System as well as their Networking state) to get the same program with the same informations, this results under the constraint of technical correctness in the same Output.

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ktz
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Re: Can a man-made computer become conscious?

Post by ktz » November 10th, 2018, 4:14 am

This has probably already been referenced somewhere in this massive thread, but whenever I see variations of this consciousness question I like to toss Djikstra's aphorism into the mix: "The question of whether machines can think is about as relevant as the question of whether submarines can swim."

With regard to two computers spitting out the same input for a high complexity problem, if you are looking for a specific counterexample perhaps you can find one in the variance between chess engines Stockfish, Rybka, Leela Chess Zero et al. as they can give the exact same position a different evaluation and different input for best move.

At least in modern conceptions of AI and ML, the answer you give will be dependent on the training dataset, and the likelihood of it being the same as another machine being harnessed to tackle the same problem is equivalent to the probability of two human beings have the exact same set of experiences to train their subroutines: unlikely, even if they started out as identical twins.

In addressing the question of whether a man-made computer can become conscious, I think our definitions of consciousness are somewhat tenuous in general. I encourage anyone interested in these problems to go check out some of the major thinkers on this topic, perhaps starting with the neuro/psych Susans, Susan Greenfield https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1yGlCXGqRQ and Susan Blackmore, and then philosophers like Daniel Dennett, and then there's a bunch of guys from quantum physics like Max Tegmark and David Chalmers with quite interesting perspectives on the matter. In my own view, I think the average human has a tough enough time having empathy for each other, and debating the consciousness of lesser creatures, let alone a conscious machine -- I have a passing interest to see if any interesting developments come up, but I prefer to spend most of my time examining the more practical questions available.

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