Meaning and the point of life...

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Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
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Meaning and the point of life...

Post by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes »

In a discussion about the meaning of life, I said the following:

Meaning is not an inherent quality of anything. It is a human function. Living beings give meaning to things. They cause events for a purpose. Life itself cannot have a purpose because there is no life to have intended it.

Life leads to meaning, not vice versa.


I think humans have an amazing ability to understand what others mean. For example, consider our ability to interpret abstract art or to interpret the symbology left by ancient civilizations. Or ask a poker player how incredibly hard it is to not communicate intentions to other humans. If humans mean something it is almost always not completely uninterpretable.

A person's so-called gibberish is probably not actually gibberish because there the person probably means something by it and that meaning could be interpreted.

Even when a person is not using social conventions to express themselves, we can find new conventions in the person's so-called gibberish, at least insofar as they mean something by it (i.e. they are trying to express something with their so-called gibberish).

I think we also might be wise to draw a distinction between what someone means by certain symbols and what those symbols would mean to another person. Common conventions generally refer to the latter, and as such a person uses them to express themselves in a way that will be best understood.

It takes conscious life (capable of intent) to mean something, to intend something, or to otherwise have a purpose for causing/creating something.

However, one of the side-effects of us having such a grand ability to understand what others mean is that we sometimes look for meaning where there is none. We sometimes assume there is purpose or intent where there is not. In analogy, if a cracker fell into your computer's CD drive, your computer might try to read it like a CD. Humans similarly try to find a meaning or intent for life and other natural, unintended phenomena.

What do you think?
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
Marcus Clayman
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Joined: January 3rd, 2008, 4:58 pm

Post by Marcus Clayman »

You make good points especially the ultimate one, which to me is the best argument against finding a purpose to life. We do give meaning to things based on nothing other than what it means to us, like in communication, misunderstandings arise when one person means one thing and the other person interprets it wrong, either because they looked somewhere for meaning when there was none, or didn't look for meaning when there was.

I've always tried to think of a way to tell people there is no meaning, but without destroying the idea of a life that has meaning. And you do a good job of that. If there is that extrademensional being with extrademensional intellect, than the meaning for creating us would also be extrademensional, possibly understandable but ultimately unknowable to us.

To look for a meaning that you cannot possibly find can possibly destroy you if at all expectations and opinions are allowed to cloud your mind, expecting to ever find "it", and having opinions about what "it" is could be the only two things preventing you from seeing the subtler aspects of meaning that would connect every thing and every moment, if there even is such a thing.

The paradox with finding the meaning to life as well is that when you find it would you know what it is you have found?

If there is meaning to me, then it would be a part of everything I am, have done, have been a part of, and I have been a part of everything in the universe, at least at one time, and over time. So the meaning for me would be the same meaning for the earth, and also the sun, and everything else in existence. Why anything forms the way it does is the question, and science can pretty much explain that. To ask why any one part of a whole is here though seems funny to me, though, like asking why is there a heart, every part supports the whole in some way. Our minds, though can undergo amazing change, are still usefull and allow us to adapt our behaviors, see what works and learn from what doesn't.

Why life exists is thus to support everything else in some way. What do we make? Energy, and plenty of it, everything makes energy...so if there is a meaning and it is at all related to the obvious similarities and patterns in the universe, than it would be to make energy. And again were back to the whole trying to find a meaning for something that is not necissarily meaningless, but the only meaning we could possibly find in it is what it does in our minds. Though any meaning effects us equaly wether or not our minds agree, it is probably in the heart and not the mind where one would find such a meaning.
sbadr
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Joined: January 22nd, 2008, 3:23 am

Post by sbadr »

If people give meanings to things then why is it that we can have more ideas than existent things? If there are 10 things in a set of things then howcome man can potentially generate infinite amount of meaning out of those 10 things? How can something finite be source of something infinite?

If we assume that the physical world is real and it came first then meaning is subjective and hence not real then I guess you are right. But we have no reason to suppose that as true. There could be a world of meanings or ideas that leads to various phenomenon, after all it is our mind that inspires us to act: so from the potentiality comes actuality.

"Meaning is not an inherent quality of anything.": I agree. Physial things are just physical thing, but that does not mean that things exist without meaning. I can write an essay. In itself the essay is just a bunch of ink and has no meaning but that does not mean that it is there for no purpose.

"It is a human function" or a function of a higher intelligent being

"Living beings give meaning to things" living "RATIONAL" beings create things with meaning.

"Life itself cannot have a purpose because there is no life to have intended it." What do you mean by life? I think what you mean by life is moving around and nothing deeper.

"Life leads to meaning, not vice versa." again assumes that physical world came before the world of ideas.


"It takes conscious life (capable of intent) to mean something, to intend something, or to otherwise have a purpose for causing/creating something."
I agree

"One of the side-effects of us having such a grand ability to understand what others mean is that we sometimes look for meaning where there is none. We sometimes assume there is purpose or intent where there is not. In analogy, if a cracker fell into your computer's CD drive, your computer might try to read it like a CD. Humans similarly try to find a meaning or intent for life and other natural, unintended phenomena."

I agree with you in the beginning and I like you analogy but it is misleading. Even a cracker inside a CD ROM can give us understanding and wisdom about life: for example many times on the face of it things look fine while in reality they are problematic. Or it could very well be that someone intentionally did that for some malicious purpose. Even if you were true you make the fallacy of generalization that what is true for one particular case is true for life in general.

Without language we are nothing: we can have no idea of physical world or anything nor interact with it. And concepts have many meanings to them. So if you take the idea of 'life' as physical movements like breathing,eating then yes there is no meaning to it. But if you take life at a higher level as something else other than physical than it is very easy to conclude that it may have a goal or purpose. The question whether life has meaning is like seeing a piece of art and asking what does this art mean: why did the artist make it? True there are many interpretations and they could all be right or none of them right but that does not mean that because art is just a bunch of paint made of chemicals that it has no meaning.
nu2dis
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Joined: January 9th, 2008, 2:47 am

Post by nu2dis »

Thanks for the invite to comment on this Scott.

As I posted in the topic in General Philosophy titled 'what's the meaning of life?what's the purpose?' by cynicallyinsane, to discover the meaning of Life will entail discovering where Life came from. If it was an act by some supreme being, then I believe meaning came before Life as we know it on this level. But if Life was the result of a random chemical reaction and there is no supreme being, I believe there are things that have an inherent meaning due to their very nature, and things we have given meaning to over time that are really irrelevant.
When our ancestors discovered that fire could protect them at night from scavenging animals we did not give that fire meaning, we discovered one of its' qualities and used it to our advantage. Animals were no more afraid of fire than before we discovered it, we just learned how to use it.Another example is the old survival of the strongest. Living things prosper through the crossing of genes, and in many cases it is the strongest of the species that gets to cross the genes, offering the best hope of survival to that species. This was happening long before homo sapiens came along.

To see things we appear to have given meaning to, we don't have to look further than superstitions. There are books written about the myriad of superstitions that people let influence their lives.
Many people even have their own private superstitions; rituals they feel they must perform to make things happen right. I suppose the poor people who suffer severe forms of obsessive-compulsive disorder are one extreme of this.

I say 'appear to have given meaning to' in the previous paragraph. This is because if there is a supreme being who is the sustainer of all things, then even these seemingly pointless superstitions will have a meaning and purpose; just because I am unable to understand the bigger picture does not mean it doesn't exist. As a child growing up, I didn't understand why I had to go to school all the time, but my parents understood the bigger picture and over time helped me understand it. And so it is with so many things....
Marcus Clayman
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Joined: January 3rd, 2008, 4:58 pm

Post by Marcus Clayman »

things may not be so black and white as

supreme being=meaning
naturalistic=no meaning

the meaning of life could very well be to rise above such ideas as meaning... as are the buddhas, creatures that have transcended ideas, starting with the idea of themselves, god and the individualistic world... there is in fact all of these ideas obviously, but they are still distractions from the true purpose which is simply "to be." Man is the source of himself, and so the source of his own meaning, it is not so relativistic and egotistical as it sounds, you do not choose your meaning, you create it out of energy, out of a very part of you, you cannot think, do, or create anything that has nothing to do with you. Bad things are bad because they weaken you, good things good because they strengthen you, beautiful things are good because they heal and remind us of things. Life IS the source of it's own meaning whether or not there is a god: God creates life with meaning, just as we create our personalities with desire, they cannot be seperated.

We do not decide to be who we are seperate from what we want. We may spend time thinking and trying to figure out what we want, but even that is changing us and that is who we are, desiring to know what we want. We also do not act a surtain way and then expect to get contradictory things for it. We act in ways, consiously in ways we think will get us what we want, and unconsciously in ways we have learned get us what we want. It is the conscious that gets in the way as it is flawed by our thinking rather than knowing. We are going to fulfill our meaning, if there is such a thing, whether or not we try or are aware of it, and if there is a meaning to life, a destiny, then we will learn the meaning if it is so written. To think for a moment though that there is a meaning, that there is a destiny, and use that as an excuse to not do anything but search for it, and possibly a way to escape it, be better than it, or want more than it has to offer, is not just egotistical, but very lazy minded. It takes more brain power to just do something than it does to think about it.
sbadr
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Joined: January 22nd, 2008, 3:23 am

Post by sbadr »

I agree more with nu2dis than marcus. Marcus, your philosophy is more in line with the modern trend of philosophy, which focuses on engineering and particular issues rather than grand issues, simply because they thought that such questions are irrelevant. Rather focus on specific issues that lead to action than those that are just pure thought: such as Why we exist? Or what is life?.
I think that they did it because they did not want to face the consequences of such thinking: that one must give up their individuality for that purpose.

You say that man creates a purpose because it is an intelligent being. He can create whatever purpose he wishes based on the effect that purpose have upon him. If it strengthen him than it is a good purpose otherwise bad. But not all purposes are the same. If 'A' has a purpose in life to seek knowledge and 'B' has purpose in life to eat, drink and have fun then those 2 purposes are not the same. And to assume that they are the same because it is man who gives meaning is to have no sense of beauty and truth.

So, the question whether life has a purpose means what purpose is the highest according to which man should live by or what is the best life? Whether that purpose is inherent in the tree or sun is irrelevant. Because we are seeking a good life. An idea of life that is bunch of chemical processess and event is neiher good nor bad: that life means nothing, and hence that idea is irrelevant for the discussion of a good life. If you say man's purpose is himself, though I do not agree with it, than that is for you the purpose of life. Cause if it was not true then why would you follow it and why would you tell others about it?

Man is tied to certain thinking and language and he all the time deals with meanings and abstractions. He perceives change. Change indicates movement. Movement indicates direction. Direction indicates a beginning and an end, hence he asks where is my life going or what is the purpose of all the change? Man does not just occupy a physical universe but also a universe of concepts, abstraction and ideas that are not neccessarily in existance or in correlation with the existent things.

The purpose of life is not a physical thing. It is an abstraction. But simply because it is an abstraction does not mean it is not real or not important. The question what is the purpose of life can be put in another way
"In a world of concepts and ideas what purpose does the abstract idea of life have?" The answer would be more religious or philosophical
if we translate the above as
"In a world of physical objects what purpose does all the movements of objects called life have?" then the answer would be scientific and not philosophical or religious
Edward J. Bartek
Posts: 270
Joined: July 14th, 2008, 12:50 pm

Meaning of life

Post by Edward J. Bartek »

The meaning of life is to have an ultimate purpose in life. It gives purpose, goals, direction, meaning,reason for living, reason for using one's potential, and hope in life. It is an ultimate principle for knowing truth, an ultimate premise for knowing rational truth, an ultimate perfection for knowing ideal truth and beauty, an ultimate perspective for knowing the whole unity of truth. It avoids the blocking conflicts and unhappy frustration of having irrelevant goals in life. It is a universal means to mental health and happiness.
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