The March Philosophy Book of the Month is Final Notice by Van Fleisher. Discuss Final Notice now.

The April Philosophy Book of the Month is The Unbound Soul by Richard L. Haight. Discuss The Unbound Soul Now

The May Philosophy Book of the Month is Misreading Judas by Robert Wahler.

What happens to us when we die?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
Consul
Posts: 2111
Joined: February 21st, 2014, 6:32 am
Location: Germany

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Consul » February 4th, 2019, 1:28 am

Atla wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 4:28 am
Matter and energy are equivalent…
No, mass and energy are.

The Equivalence of Mass and Energy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/equivME/
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 7945
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » February 4th, 2019, 1:57 am

Jan Sand wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 1:27 am
"Flying about" implies motion and without time there is no motion.
Amorphous ripples of particle-less gunk that would be colliding chaotically, a bit like churning waters.

Atla
Posts: 149
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Atla » February 4th, 2019, 2:35 am

Consul wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 1:28 am
Atla wrote:
February 3rd, 2019, 4:28 am
Matter and energy are equivalent…
No, mass and energy are.

The Equivalence of Mass and Energy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/equivME/
Oh yeah that's what I wanted to write.

Jan Sand
Posts: 658
Joined: September 10th, 2017, 11:57 am

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Jan Sand » February 4th, 2019, 2:38 am

Apparently you do not understand the concept of dimension. A dot is a fixed position. There is only one place for it to be so it has no dimension. A line presents the possibility of being any place on that line. The word "dimension"implies measurement and if an origin point on the line is chosen, one measurement can locate any point on that line from that chosen origin so a line is one dimensional. On a plane surface it requires two measurements from a chosen origin. A volume is three dimensional since three measurements must be given to locate a point distant from the origin. Time is a fourth dimension since any point within a volume that can move requires three measurements in space and one in time to locate that point since time is integral with movement. Each added dimension adds an additional degree of freedom to that point and therefore requires an additional measurement for location. We may live in a five dimensional universe and, if so, a "free will" may be able to perceive other universes in which to permit choices. I have no idea as to how I might be able to move into other variations of this universe so free will seems unlikely to me but I have an open mind on the matter.

Atla
Posts: 149
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Atla » February 4th, 2019, 2:49 am

Greta wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 1:03 am
We don't really understand time, though, do we? Relativity tells us that future and the past are the same, already part of an existing fabric of reality. Meanwhile retroactivity has been observed at quantum scales. We figure that there was no time before the BB introduced radioactive decay, rotations and orbits.

Imagine if, after the BB, amorphous energy just pulled apart in the expanding space and dissipated without ever forming particles - no decay, rotation or orbits, just stuff flying randomly about. Would we say such a universe was timeless or that it had a different kind of time?
I see it the other way around, the apparent retroactivity of quantum phenomena shows that the universe is actually timeless (and spaceless, nonlocality), so the spacetime of relativity is probably not fundamental, just a necessary kind of arrangement of the quantum world for humans to exist. As for the classical psychological sensation of space and time, those are rather illusions, ways how the human experience is constructed.

As such there isn't much reason to believe that the BB was an actual beginning. At one point, our part of the universe used to be condensed into that singularity.

User avatar
Greta
Site Admin
Posts: 7945
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Greta » February 4th, 2019, 6:11 am

Atla wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 2:49 am
Greta wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 1:03 am
We don't really understand time, though, do we? Relativity tells us that future and the past are the same, already part of an existing fabric of reality. Meanwhile retroactivity has been observed at quantum scales. We figure that there was no time before the BB introduced radioactive decay, rotations and orbits.

Imagine if, after the BB, amorphous energy just pulled apart in the expanding space and dissipated without ever forming particles - no decay, rotation or orbits, just stuff flying randomly about. Would we say such a universe was timeless or that it had a different kind of time?
I see it the other way around, the apparent retroactivity of quantum phenomena shows that the universe is actually timeless (and spaceless, nonlocality), so the spacetime of relativity is probably not fundamental, just a necessary kind of arrangement of the quantum world for humans to exist. As for the classical psychological sensation of space and time, those are rather illusions, ways how the human experience is constructed.

As such there isn't much reason to believe that the BB was an actual beginning. At one point, our part of the universe used to be condensed into that singularity.
I'm not sure the above is incompatible with my thoughts above, just taking different angles.

I see spacetime as simply being expanding space (hyperspace/the bulk/quantum foam) that's infused with the stuff of the big bang. Take the stuff out (or diffuse it as per the projected heat death of the universe) from the quantum foam and time as we know it is gone. The quantum foam is purported to basically consist of constantly and instantly annihilating ripples (virtual particles), so the appearances and disappearances presumably happen over some extremely small timeframe, but it's more like snippets of time appearing and immediately disappearing, as if each ripple was a quick big bang that immediately creates and destroys time as opposed to the flow of time intrinsic to energy and matter.

Atla
Posts: 149
Joined: January 30th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Re: What happens to us when we die?

Post by Atla » February 4th, 2019, 12:00 pm

Greta wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 6:11 am
Atla wrote:
February 4th, 2019, 2:49 am

I see it the other way around, the apparent retroactivity of quantum phenomena shows that the universe is actually timeless (and spaceless, nonlocality), so the spacetime of relativity is probably not fundamental, just a necessary kind of arrangement of the quantum world for humans to exist. As for the classical psychological sensation of space and time, those are rather illusions, ways how the human experience is constructed.

As such there isn't much reason to believe that the BB was an actual beginning. At one point, our part of the universe used to be condensed into that singularity.
I'm not sure the above is incompatible with my thoughts above, just taking different angles.

I see spacetime as simply being expanding space (hyperspace/the bulk/quantum foam) that's infused with the stuff of the big bang. Take the stuff out (or diffuse it as per the projected heat death of the universe) from the quantum foam and time as we know it is gone. The quantum foam is purported to basically consist of constantly and instantly annihilating ripples (virtual particles), so the appearances and disappearances presumably happen over some extremely small timeframe, but it's more like snippets of time appearing and immediately disappearing, as if each ripple was a quick big bang that immediately creates and destroys time as opposed to the flow of time intrinsic to energy and matter.
Not sure what you mean, the Big Bang stuff and the quantum foam are two forms of the same thing. And time as we know is gone even if we only look at the Big Bang stuff.

Post Reply