What is energy

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Consul
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Re: What is energy

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: October 11th, 2022, 12:38 amI share McGinn's view that energy is an objective physical reality, but I think that to call it a thing (in the narrow sense of term), a stuff, a material, an object (in the narrow sense of term), or a substance is to commit an ontological category mistake. For energy is an objective physical attribute or property (or "trait") of physical things or masses of stuff, of material substances or materials.
Again, my general ontological point is that, whatever its nature, …

"Energy is not a substance, an object, or a thing, rather it is a property of all substances, objects, things, and people—a property of matter."

(Cheetham, Norman W. H. Introducing Biological Energetics: How Energy and Information Control the Living World. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2010. p. 46)

The Oxford Dictionary of Physics defines "energy" as follows:

"energy. A measure of a system’s ability to do work. Like work itself, it is measured in joules. Energy is conveniently classified into two forms: potential energy is the energy stored in a body or system as a consequence of its position, shape, or state (this includes gravitational energy, electrical energy, nuclear energy, and chemical energy); kinetic energy is energy of motion and is usually defined as the work that will be done by the body possessing the energy when it is brought to rest."

(Oxford Dictionary of Physics. 8th ed. Edited by Richard Rennie. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2019. p. 185)

If a measure is a mathematical (numerical) representation of a quantity, then energy qua measure of a physical quantity is different from the physical quantity measured; but when I say that "energy is an objective physical reality," I'm talking about the quantity itself, and not about its measure.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is energy

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Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 12:15 pmIn order for you to describe anything as a "property", you need to be able to perceive it. You must be able to measure that "property" (you need 'stuff') or we're in the realm of "magic" and imaginary concepts, which I don't resent in any way. A "field" must also be "something" that I can perceive and measure ('Stuff') to grant some measurable "property".
No, neither measurability nor perceptibility is by definition part of the general ontological concept of a property. Quantitative properties aka quantities are measurable properties, but they are only one sort of properties beside qualities and quiddities (kind-properties such a being an electron). The ontological relationship between qualities and quantities is an intricate issue. Are quantities reducible to measurable, numerically representable qualities, or are they properties sui generis?
Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 12:15 pmI often remark and specifically indicate by [energy] that we don't really know what's [energy]. What we call "energy" is something that we can perceive (change) & measure ('stuff'), granting some measurable "property". The "property" itself or the "description" (John is tall) of the phenomenon, doesn't actually grant you "understanding" of the phenomenon (You don't understand John by the fact that he's tall)
There is a very good physical understanding of (the forms of) energy, but you may say that there is still an ontological problem.
Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 12:15 pm"Since energy is a property, any energy (like velocity) cannot exist without something possessing it. Thus, field energy requires a field."
This is a pure conjecture, a proposition. This is what we need in order for us be able to measure 'stuff'. Again, we have no idea what [energy] actually is. We can only "comprehend" that which we can measure.
That a property (quality/quantity/quiddity) cannot exist without something (some thing/object/substance) possessing (exemplifying/instantiating) it is a general ontological principle—albeit one which is not accepted by all ontologists. (I do accept and defend it!)
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: What is energy

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Consul wrote: March 24th, 2023, 2:08 pmThere is a very good physical understanding of (the forms of) energy, but you may say that there is still an ontological problem.
One ontological question already mentioned is whether energy belongs to the category attribute (property) or to the category substance.
Given the distinction between dispositional properties and categorical properties, another ontological question is whether what the physicists understand very well about energy is only its dispositional character, with its categorical basis or ground remaining unknown. However, the ontological relationship between dispositional properties and categorical ones is itself a contentious issue.
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Re: What is energy

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Consul wrote: March 24th, 2023, 2:08 pm
Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 12:15 pmIn order for you to describe anything as a "property", you need to be able to perceive it. You must be able to measure that "property" (you need 'stuff') or we're in the realm of "magic" and imaginary concepts, which I don't resent in any way. A "field" must also be "something" that I can perceive and measure ('Stuff') to grant some measurable "property".
No, neither measurability nor perceptibility is by definition part of the general ontological concept of a property. Quantitative properties aka quantities are measurable properties, but they are only one sort of properties beside qualities and quiddities (kind-properties such a being an electron). The ontological relationship between qualities and quantities is an intricate issue. Are quantities reducible to measurable, numerically representable qualities, or are they properties sui generis?
Think about what you wrote. How could you have a concept of qualities and quiddities if you couldn't perceive such "things"?
Consul wrote: March 24th, 2023, 2:08 pm
Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 12:15 pmI often remark and specifically indicate by [energy] that we don't really know what's [energy]. What we call "energy" is something that we can perceive (change) & measure ('stuff'), granting some measurable "property". The "property" itself or the "description" (John is tall) of the phenomenon, doesn't actually grant you "understanding" of the phenomenon (You don't understand John by the fact that he's tall)
There is a very good physical understanding of (the forms of) energy, but you may say that there is still an ontological problem.
I feel very protective of the word "understanding". It shouldn't be used lightly, unless there is a true "understanding". You have such "understanding" if you can create whatever you claim to "understand". In this case, can you create physical forms (mass) from light?
Consul wrote: March 24th, 2023, 2:08 pm
Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 12:15 pm"Since energy is a property, any energy (like velocity) cannot exist without something possessing it. Thus, field energy requires a field."
This is a pure conjecture, a proposition. This is what we need in order for us be able to measure 'stuff'. Again, we have no idea what [energy] actually is. We can only "comprehend" that which we can measure.
That a property (quality/quantity/quiddity) cannot exist without something (some thing/object/substance) possessing (exemplifying/instantiating) it is a general ontological principle—albeit one which is not accepted by all ontologists. (I do accept and defend it!)

How do you measure a "quality" or "quiddity" of an object? What's the criteria or scale?
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Re: What is energy

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Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 3:25 pmThink about what you wrote. How could you have a concept of qualities and quiddities if you couldn't perceive such "things"?
The formation and definition of concepts of properties doesn't depend on the empirical possibility of having percepts of their objects.

Note that there is no 1:1 correspondence between property-concepts and properties, because it is not the case that for all concepts (or predicates) there is some real property. Arguably, nor is it the case that for all real properties there is some concept (or predicate) representing it.

As for the epistemological problem, what (kinds of) real, natural properties there are in the world cannot be decided a priori/non-empirically. It's up to natural science to discover the (kinds of) real, natural properties.
Ranvier wrote: March 24th, 2023, 3:25 pmHow do you measure a "quality" or "quiddity" of an object? What's the criteria or scale?
It depends. As you presumably know already, there is a scientific measurement theory working with different scales of measurement: https://studyonline.unsw.edu.au/blog/types-of-data
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Re: What is energy

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Consul

Perhaps you use complicated language so it makes "sense" to you. However, especially when you attempt to describe something complex, you should use as simplistic language as possible. Take the following sentence:

"The formation and definition of concepts of properties doesn't depend on the empirical possibility of having percepts of their objects".
in reply to my:
"Think about what you wrote. How could you have a concept of qualities and quiddities if you couldn't perceive such "things"?"

We can unpack the meaning of "to perceive" in a lengthy debate but to make it simple, it must occur in your "consciousness". If it doesn't occur in your "consciousness", as with "blablocity" elsewhere, it doesn't "exist". In order for you to have "existence" (perception) of "qualities and quiddities", it must occur in your "consciousness" one way or another. Neither of these concepts: qualities and quiddities is an "objective" property!!!! I can't stress this enough, as many pseudoscientists (neuropsychologists) make this error. A physical object (person) can be "perceived" as a body for a scientific investigation or "John" that's subject of a study from subjective interpretation. You may remark that a given painting is of high quality (art), while someone else may disagree. Psychology isn't a science! It's not "objective". Quality isn't an "objective" measure, so I didn't even entertain the link you provided.
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Re: What is energy

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I've should've included this note: "qualities and quiddities" are NOT "properties" but subjective descriptions of an object. Not "objective"!
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Re: What is energy

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As is evident, energy is a scientific concept. It's measured in Ergs (CGS system) and Joules (SI system). However, as a plethora of literature attests, energy has been adopted into the pseudoscientific family of rather ancient beliefs. What's that which remains intact/unchanged as this happens?
Never send a man to do a machine's job. 8)
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Re: What is energy

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Ranvier wrote: March 26th, 2023, 8:00 amI've should've included this note: "qualities and quiddities" are NOT "properties" but subjective descriptions of an object. Not "objective"!
No, qualities, quantities, and quiddities are all kinds of properties, and they are all different from concepts or predicates qua descriptive representations (descriptions) of things. Conceptual or verbal representations (signs) have semantic properties (meaning, reference) that properties lack. For example, the physical concept <mass> has meaning&reference, but it's nonsensical to say that the mass of a physical object has meaning&reference.

Generally speaking, properties are ways things are, ways of being (modi essendi); and there are (ontologically) objective ways things are.

By the way, the noun "quiddity" has more than one meaning in contemporary philosophy, but…

QUOTE>
"I am using 'quidditative property' to denote any property pertaining to what (quid) a thing is, whether accidental or essential, monadic or relational. A quidditative property is a what-determination."

(Vallicella, William F. "Existence: Two Dogmas of Analysis." In Neo-Aristotelian Perspectives in Metaphysics, edited by Daniel D. Novotný and Lukáš Novák, 45-75. New York: Routledge, 2014. p. 70n33)
<QUOTE

So, a quiddity in this sense is a "whatness"—as opposed to a "howness" (quality)—, i.e. an individualizing or "sortal" property telling us what (kind of thing) a thing is.

Whether quiddities thus defined are properties sui generis or reducible to bundles of (essential) qualities is another question I'm not going to discuss here.

Others use this term in the following senses:

QUOTE>
"[T]here is a sense in which individuals are all the same. In abstraction from their properties and relations they are barely numerically different. (This is the rejection of the doctrine of haecceity.) By contrast, properties and relations do each have their own haecceity, or, better, their own quiddity or nature."

(Armstrong, D. M. A Combinatorial Theory of Possibility. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989. p. 44)

"Haecceitism for individuals is parallel to Quidditism for universals."

(Armstrong, D. M. A Combinatorial Theory of Possibility. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1989. p. 59)
———
"The term ‘quiddity’ is sometimes used for these potentially hidden fundamental properties that play the causal/nomic role specified in microphysics."

(Chalmers, David. Constructing the World. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012. pp. 348-9)

"Metaphysical quidditism holds that there exist quiddities distinct from the associated roles and powers."

(Chalmers, David. Constructing the World. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012. p. 352)

"Here we can say that quiddities are the fundamental categorical properties that play the fundamental roles specified in physics. Alternatively, we can say that quiddities are the categorical bases of the microphysical dispositions characterized in physics. We can stipulate in addition that quiddities are distinct from the roles or the dispositions themselves. A view on which there are only role or dispositional properties, and no distinct properties playing those roles or serving as the basis for the dispositions, is a view on which there are no quiddities.
It is not obvious that there must be quiddities. There are respectable structuralist or dispositionalist views of physics on which physics involves just structure or dispositions all the way down."

(Chalmers, David. "Panpsychism and Panprotopsychism." In Consciousness and the Physical World: Perspectives on Russellian Monism, edited by Torin Alter and Yujin Nagasawa, 246-276. New York: Oxford University Press, 2015. p. 254)
———
"While the understanding of ‘quiddity’ varies somewhat, at least in the context of the dispositionalism vs. categoricalism debate the meaning is fairly well-established: quiddities are categorical (i.e., non-dispositional) properties, each of which is identical to itself and distinguished from all others. A quiddity can be seen as the property-analogue of a bare substratum: its intrinsic nature consists wholly in self-identity and numerical distinctness from other quiddities, and that is all there is to be said."

(Dumsday, Travis. Dispositionalism and the Metaphysics of Science. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2019. p. 95)
———
"The believer in quiddities says that there are intrinsic properties that realize the roles picked out by the Ramsification of a scientific theory—even a basic physical theory—and says that other intrinsic properties could have played these roles."

(Peacocke, Christopher. The Primacy of Metaphysics. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2019. p. 189)
<QUOTE
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Re: What is energy

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Ranvier wrote: March 26th, 2023, 7:26 amWe can unpack the meaning of "to perceive" in a lengthy debate but to make it simple, it must occur in your "consciousness". If it doesn't occur in your "consciousness", as with "blablocity" elsewhere, it doesn't "exist". In order for you to have "existence" (perception) of "qualities and quiddities", it must occur in your "consciousness" one way or another. Neither of these concepts: qualities and quiddities is an "objective" property!!!! I can't stress this enough, as many pseudoscientists (neuropsychologists) make this error. A physical object (person) can be "perceived" as a body for a scientific investigation or "John" that's subject of a study from subjective interpretation. You may remark that a given painting is of high quality (art), while someone else may disagree. Psychology isn't a science! It's not "objective". Quality isn't an "objective" measure, so I didn't even entertain the link you provided.
* When you say "a given painting is of high quality", "quality" here means "peculiar excellence or superiority", and you may say that's a subjective judgement. However, this is not the general ontological meaning of "quality", which is "attribute, property, special feature or characteristic. primary, secondary, etc. qualities" (Oxford English Dictionary). Paintings have objective qualities in the latter sense! For example, paintings have an objective material texture, and the pigments and paints used have objective material qualities.

* In the phenomenological sense, to sensorily perceive something (some propertied thing) is to experience a sensory appearance of it "in one's consciousness"; but it is not the case that esse est percipi, in the sense that what doesn't sensorily appear to me doesn't exist. Sensory perception is a source of knowledge of what exists, but existing and being known to exist aren't one and the same thing.
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Re: What is energy

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Agent Smyth wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:07 am As is evident, energy is a scientific concept.
No, the concept <energy> is a concept—energy isn't.
Agent Smyth wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:07 amIt's measured in Ergs (CGS system) and Joules (SI system). However, as a plethora of literature attests, energy has been adopted into the pseudoscientific family of rather ancient beliefs. What's that which remains intact/unchanged as this happens?
Yes, we find the word "energy" in all sorts of pseudoscientific, esoteric, or occultist theories; but there is a precise scientific concept of energy as used by physicists and chemists.

Note that in Aristotle's original sense of the term, "energeia" means "power actively and efficiently displayed or exerted" rather than "power not necessarily manifested in action; ability or capacity to produce an effect" (Oxford Dictionary of English), the latter of which is called "dynamis" by Aristotle. That is, dynamis is mere potentiality, unmanifested/unexerted power, whereas energeia is activity or operativity, manifested/exerted power, power "at work".
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Re: What is energy

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Substance cognizes its nature via a function. This function existed prior to its cognition therefore, its cognition is an emergent Quis/Quid or a Quis/Quid function. Although, the Quis/Quid function exist its cognition is relative to Ego trips. It is understood that the Quid function is cognized by the Quis/Quid with relative accuracy. Moreover, this function includes the calculated amounts to perform the calculation of the function. In an art abstraction “having energy” IMO and in the least the Quis/Quid function includes energies included in the calculation of such “energies”. At the speculative emergent function an energy from the art piece is a variable.
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Re: What is energy

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Agent Smyth wrote: March 26th, 2023, 9:07 am As is evident, energy is a scientific concept. It's measured in Ergs (CGS system) and Joules (SI system). However, as a plethora of literature attests, energy has been adopted into the pseudoscientific family of rather ancient beliefs. What's that which remains intact/unchanged as this happens?
Energy is an ancient concept, as you note. It's the 'stuff' that makes things go. I don't think the ancients were just the mumbling bumbling fools bumping into each other, just making babies by accident. Some of them build pyramids, others invented algebra & geometry. What did you invent?

But yes, "energy" is a scientific concept
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Re: What is energy

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Consul

"Generally speaking, properties are ways things are, ways of being (modi essendi); and there are (ontologically) objective ways things are".
No, "properties" are a "thing" I can measure using SI units.
"So, a quiddity in this sense is a "whatness"—as opposed to a "howness" (quality)—, i.e. an individualizing or "sortal" property telling us what (kind of thing) a thing is".
I think you're just messing with my brain for fun at this point. (Humor). You can't objectively measure how much of a triangle something is. You like to appeal to authority by quoting sources. That's fine but the painting only has physical & chemical properties. Everything else are descriptions. Since "John" is the only unique individual in the universe, doesn't make "John" a "property". I hope!
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Re: What is energy

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Consul

"When you say "a given painting is of high quality", "quality" here means "peculiar excellence or superiority", and you may say that's a subjective judgement. However, this is not the general ontological meaning of "quality", which is "attribute, property, special feature or characteristic. primary, secondary, etc. qualities" (Oxford English Dictionary). Paintings have objective qualities in the latter sense! For example, paintings have an objective material texture, and the pigments and paints used have objective material qualities".

What's the "objective" SI unit of texture? How do I objectively measure texture? Unless you mean a chemical composition of the "textile" (material), otherwise it has to be an estimation or judgement. "Pigments and paints used have objective material qualities". No, pigments & paints only have "objective" chemical & physical "properties". There is no such thing as "objective qualities". Logically, how can "quality" be an objective measure in a subjective mind? Are you in possession of a device that you can point at something and it gives you a measurement of "Quality" of that something? What are the SI units the device uses, so that I can verify objectively?
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