How may trruth be found?

Discuss any topics related to metaphysics (the philosophical study of the principles of reality) or epistemology (the philosophical study of knowledge) in this forum.
Edward J. Bartek
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How may trruth be found?

Post by Edward J. Bartek »

How may truth be found? Standards and values of truth are found simply by comparison wwith another value. Thus one knows whast is hot by comparing with what is warm and cold. One is a standard of truth for the other.

Observable scientific truth is found by inductive reasoning from concrete facts (Like action-reaction)that synthesize to concepts, that synthesize to principles that are the truth of "Scientific Law."


Abstruse theological truth is found by by deductive reasoning from principles (Like God) that reduce to concepts that reduce to facts, that verify its truth.

Rational philosophical truth may be indictive to get principles, then deductive from this to make theories.

Truth is in what has the same principle. Thus God-man-nature all have the same principle of being a creator, from which comes a trinity: Universe-ideas-matter, being one as spirit-one-emergy, trinities like the Holy Trinity-(negative-neutral-positive values)-Qarks.

Truth is what has a balancing trinity in them, like the atom with its electron-neutron-proton.

Truth is in a principle that applies to an individual, that also applies to the family, group, city, nation, civilization, and humanity.

Truth is found in symbolic structures, like the cycle structure.

According to Kant's theory, no sensual fact makes sense until it relates to a principle imbedded in the mind. If all of these means to truth were embedded in the mind by education, the mind of man would advance tghe way the map and clock did for time and space.
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Akhenaten
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Post by Akhenaten »

Though I fail to see where, atleast in this, there is a question or debatable topic. Due to this I will blatantly ignore what you have said, and simply respond to the topic alone.

Though, some claim, there is a fundamental 'Truth' behind everything, I personally disagree. I feel that Truth, by its very nature, as even our "facts" are shown fluid and changeable as easily as the weather, a human precept created to justify actions and thoughts they cannot otherwise comprehend. Therefore, I state the way to find Truth is meerly by asking whoever it is you are curious about at that time, as no Truth is the same for any two individuals.

However, Fundamentalists may disagree.

(P.S.)
Not all atoms have a 'Trinity' system.

Most Principals designed for cultural basis are oppressive in the fact that they instruct the younger generations in a method of thought and action. Therefore, by default, I think this fails the criteria of 'Truth'.
Edward J. Bartek
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Post by Edward J. Bartek »

Akhenaten wrote:Though
Though, some claim, there is a fundamental 'Truth' behind everything, I personally disagree. I feel that Truth, by its very nature, as even our "facts" are shown fluid and changeable as easily as the weather, a human precept created to justify actions and thoughts they cannot otherwise comprehend. Therefore, I state the way to find Truth is meerly by asking whoever it is you are curious about at that time, as no Truth is the same for any two individuals.

EJB: Do you realize that when you say there is no truth, that you are saying you have a truth? Also, by saying that the way to find truth is to ask others about your curiosity at the time, but this is contradicted by you saying no truth is the same for any two individuals. If there is no truth, why have education? Why try to improve yourself. Why ask about truth?



Not all atoms have a 'Trinity' system.

EJB: I'm no scientist, but can you tell me about an an atom that is not a trinity?

Principals designed for cultural basis are oppressive in the fact that they instruct the younger generations in a method of thought and action. Therefore, by default, I think this fails the criteria of 'Truth'.
EJB: You say principles are bad because they teach the yongere generation a method of thought and action. You didn't say whether that method and action was good or bad? If it be good, why would you reject it for the bad? How does it fail the criteria of truth?
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Akhenaten
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Post by Akhenaten »

EJB: You say principles are bad because they teach the yongere generation a method of thought and action. You didn't say whether that method and action was good or bad? If it be good, why would you reject it for the bad? How does it fail the criteria of truth?
Not simply the concepts of morality inwhich are ingrained (Atleast into those who 'fit in') such as not killing others, not stealing from others, etc... Such things are, inherently, fine as 'stand alone' ideals. Unfortunately, as one can find with any research on Wikipedia on any cultural history and views, there are cultural hatreds that invariably come with them. Also, due to the very nature of this situation, no two cultural ideals align perfectly. In this we find a lack of common belief, and hence a lack of truth.

I am not saying that principles are bad, meerly that, as with all things, there is a less pleasant side, which negates the concept of fundamental truth.
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

What about ethical imperatives being based in biological human nature which transcends cultural variations?

For instance, it is now known that the disgust response is an inherent biological response. Sympathy too, is biological as is shown by immediate emotional responses to another's joy or distress.The biological responses may be inhibited by learned responses,but there is evidence that they are inherent .
nameless
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Re: How may trruth be found?

Post by nameless »

Edward J. Bartek wrote:How may truth be found?
Reply #1)'Truth' cannot be 'found'.
("The truth that can be found, is not the Truth!" -Lao Tsu)
"In Silentium, Verum!" - Book of Fudd (1:1)
("In Silence, Truth!")


Reply #2) It is 'found' when you think/feel that you have 'found' it, whatever you think/feel 'it/truth' is. From, then, 'your' Perspective, you have 'found' it.
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Post by Belinda »

But, nameless, are not some Perspectives better than other Perspectives? I think that certain of my Perspectives, for instance, when I have taken time to reflect, are better than my Perspectives when I am under the influence of some irrational emotion.

Western Science is a Perspective, No?

If every person in the world, from now until the end of conscious beings, held that a certain Perspective was the best , would that not also make it the truest?
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Akhenaten
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Post by Akhenaten »

Belinda:

You cannot prove that your perspective when in full, stoic control of your mind, as opposed to a frenzied emotional state, are in any way better or worse? The Torsion Field (field of Alpha and Beta wave patterns that surrounds the earth, generated by the combined output of human minds around the globe, discovered as a plottable and factual 'grid' in Russia not too long ago, also called the Vibration Harmonic or Vibration Waves) of the world is, when listened for in the right wave-length, quite litterally humming with subconscious, I.E. thought patterns uncontrolled by the Logic Processing Center of the brain, thoughts. We are also, thanks to advances in psychological studies and neurosciences, now in full knowledge that alterations to this field affects the logical processing of those it affects.

Therefore, all perspectives are altered and changed as the output of thought patterns causes 'cross chatter' on your own personal mental network. For an easy example, visit Thailand or China, or really any asian nation, and spend a week. In this, if you are from Europe/America, you will, if you take notes, notice a changing of your perceptions of even the most basic of things, such as politics, cultural views, and biasts. This study has been conducted many times, researchable on Wikipedia and other such resources, with the same outcome.

The ancient saying that 'We are all products of our environments' was more correct than its speaker knew.

So.. no... really no Perspectives are better than others, as no one truly knows their own perspective... hence why we have a conscious self, and a subconscious self, neither of which, save for rare cases and the occasional soul searching, communicate in the slightest.


- I will however grant that if indeed a concept can be considered universal to the human condition, then it would, by definition, be Truth whether fundamental or otherwise... and in this I an forced to concede my previous point to Belinda for now.
nameless
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Post by nameless »

Belinda wrote:But, nameless, are not some Perspectives better than other Perspectives?
Of course, to and as those Perspectives who see 'their' universe in those terms.
I think that certain of my Perspectives, for instance, when I have taken time to reflect, are better than my Perspectives when I am under the influence of some irrational emotion.
There you arise, in/as a particular moment (universe) feeling and thinking as you do.
Western Science is a Perspective, No?
Everything is Perspective.
If every person in the world, from now until the end of conscious beings, held that a certain Perspective was the best , would that not also make it the truest?
I cannot speak of 'truth'..
"In Silentium, Verum!" -Book of Fudd
but;
First reply;
"For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!" -First Law of Soul Dynamics

Second reply;
Yes, from/for certain Perspectives.
Edward J. Bartek
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Re: How may trruth be found?

Post by Edward J. Bartek »

nameless wrote: Reply #1)'Truth' cannot be 'found'.

ejb:Going back to Descartes: If there is no truth, you don't exist, and to say there is no truth is to say a truth. So is theree truth?

Reply #2) It is 'found' when you think/feel that you have 'found' it.,.
ejb: If all truth is relative to each individual, then all your acceptance of another's word is based on belief that you cannot prove. Why should I accpt anything you say if it's only what you feel, which may change because of a bad meal?.
nameless
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Re: How may trruth be found?

Post by nameless »

Edward J. Bartek wrote:
nameless wrote: Reply #1)'Truth' cannot be 'found'.

Reply #2) It is 'found' when you think/feel that you have 'found' it.,.
ejb: If all truth is relative to each individual, then all your acceptance of another's word is based on belief that you cannot prove. Why should I accpt anything you say if it's only what you feel, which may change because of a bad meal?.
Everything is different every moment. Brand new universes! So, what I say Now is just that, what I say Now. Do with it as you will.
What do you mean by, "acceptance of another's word"?
Are you talking of 'promises'!?
'Personally' I 'accept' no one's word for anything, without thorough examination.
If I should tentatively, until further data makes the hypothesis obsolete, agree with or hypothetically accept something that is 'told' to me, it's because it passes, tentatively, my own critically thoughtful examination. I think for myself and don't just 'accept' anything (no matter the source), nor do I ask for these words (in your head) to be uncritically, unthoughtfully, unexaminedly 'accepted'.
If you are an 'acceptor' of the words of others as 'true', the how's and wherefors are up to you. Whatever works in your worlds is true and real for you.

I have no 'beliefs'.
ejb:Going back to Descartes: If there is no truth, you don't exist, and to say there is no truth is to say a truth. So is theree truth?
You posit some sort of connection between 'truth' (which you admittedly know nothing about, as per your topic question) and 'existence' (which I'm not too sure about your grip on that one either). That is the cognitive error of non-sequitur (this doesn't follow from that). Any connection must be very personal and ultimately, logically, sloppy. Define 'Truth'.

"Everything exists.
Existence is Context/Perspective.
I am Perspective. I am existence as Perceived.
You are Perspective. You are existence as Perceived.
Both, unique Perspectives/omniverses every moment."

No matter what I say, I claim no 'truth' in these words (in your head). The words just come. No 'why'.
You make of them as you must.
As far as your question, "is there truth", that is for you to determine 'from/as' your unique Perspective.
Or are you just looking for some words to 'accept' (believe?)? Perhaps you (believe in magic words?) think that would fill the 'void'?
(can the 'void' be filled? *__- )

Perhaps 'Truth' might be that 'place' where all possible unique and uniquely limited Perspectives 'converge'; Consciousness (the "Ground of all Being" -qmCi)
(Thats what millennia of mystics have claimed, anyway.. so thats at least one independent discipline's validation of the Copenhagen interpretation, and vice versa)
Whatever works for ye!
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pjkeeley
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Post by pjkeeley »

nameless wrote:I have no 'beliefs'.
You are an impractical human being.
Edward J. Bartek
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How may truth be forund?

Post by Edward J. Bartek »

Belinda wrote: are not some Perspectives better than other Perspectives? I think that certain of my Perspectives, for instance, when I have taken time to reflect, are better than my Perspectives when I am under the influence of some irrational emotion.

ejb: There's a difference between viewpoint-perspective-perception. Viewpoint is the angle of view of a same object. Perspective of ideas is the same as in drawing. Diverse facts uup close, broader concepts further out, and oneness of principles at the vanishing point. sensually, all will disagree with the diversity of sensual facts. Rationally some will disagree with fewer coincepts, Rationally or spiritually, none will disagree with the ulimate oneness of the ultimate principle.
3 men looked from prison bars, one saw mud, one saw trees, one saw stars. That's perspective.

Science is a Perspective, No?

ejb: There is perspective in theology-philosophy-science

If every person in the world, from now until the end of conscious beings, held that a certain Perspective was the best , would that not also make it the truest?


ejb: The ultimate perspective of science is the oneness of energy, that of philosophy is the oneness of the ultimate reality, and that of theology the oneness of the Ultimate Creator (God). Which is the best and truest?
Belinda
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Post by Belinda »

pjkeeley, August 1st says that nameless is impractical , because nameless had said that he/she has no beliefs.

There are working hypotheses as well as beliefs. While the former are usually taken to be temporary and easily abandoned, beliefs are often fixed by the holders' loyalty or intransigent stubbornness, or laziness, or lack of scepticism.
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pjkeeley
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Post by pjkeeley »

I was being dramatic because nameless' philosophy frustates and astounds me. I have trouble seeing how anyone can be such a relativist to that degree. Grrrr! :evil:

Beliefs to me are every assumption you make about reality, including the assumption that there is no objective reality about which to make assumptions.
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