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Being vegan for ethical reasons.

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h_k_s
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by h_k_s » May 30th, 2019, 7:12 pm

Alias wrote:
May 30th, 2019, 6:58 pm
h_k_s wrote:
May 30th, 2019, 6:27 pm

Leather itself is in extremely high demand for shoes, boots, hats, belts, and purses. These items will always be in fairly high demand, especially shoes and boots.
Demand has never made anything ethical.
Whichever bad action 'gives rise' whichever other bad action, both remain bad.
There is no ethical by-product of an unethical industry.
And you can pollution, deforestation, energy consumption and CO2 to the unethical byproducts.
And maybe chemical and psychological damage to the workers in those industries.
Whether artificial plant-based meat substitutes will ever become widespread and popular I do not know.
They're already widespread. Successful enough for the beef industry to start suing over the names.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/bu ... 371378002/
And lab-grown real meat is becoming easier to produce, and more factories, world-wide are producing it.
https://www.dw.com/en/will-2019-be-the- ... a-46943665
Pretty soon, it will cheaper than raising and killing animals, as well as safer and healthier.
For now, hunting is ok in certain states like Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Washington State, Oklahoma, Virginia, New Hampshire, Vermont, and Maine. But as human crowding gets worse, hunting will become rare and expensive just like in Europe today. So ultimately my favorite game meats will become out of the question.
Legal is, again, not synonymous with ethical.
I am glad I do not live in the future. It will be a very crowded and different kind of place.
The near future is likely to be very grim in all sorts of ways.
The distant future might be better.
There will likely be a great human die-off at some point in the near future. This has happened a few times in history already, with the Black Plague (bubonic), the Great Freeze of 1740, WW1, the Spanish Flu of 1918, and WW2. Times afterwards were quite prosperous, most recently in Germany and Japan.

During a die-off it is common to see cannibalism. Russia during WW1 and WW2 has already experienced this.

Times after the coming die-off should be better too.

I will be long gone by then, I hope.

Kaz_1983
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » May 31st, 2019, 10:19 am

It's NOT ethical to eat meat. It's NOT ethical to eat cheese. It's NOT ethical to drink milk. It's NOT ethical to wear leather.

It might be out of convenience or maybe it's a cultural thing for you or misplaced veiw that you need meat or at least dairy in your diet to be healthy. Either way it's morally wrong, it's just not right at the end of the day..

Anyways just because something is not ethical, that's doesn't mean your a bad person for choosing it - in the right circumstances.. still bad behaviour mind you but it does mean us all have different definition of need, now the definition of need is to require something because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

I believe the are many desirable reasons to eating meat, cheese, drinking cow's milk or wearing leather but is these days essential... the definition of essential is something that's absolutely necessary or extremely important.

Kaz_1983
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » May 31st, 2019, 11:42 am

It's my strong belief that morals and ethics are the values that most differenciate us from animals. And this is the real problem of the modern world. We believe that we are superior, because we have the ability to think things over. But in the end, we distort, more than we improve.

MAYA EL
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by MAYA EL » June 4th, 2019, 12:52 am

All of this is completely hypothetical and completely rooted in ignorance. For someone to assume what's ethical in regards to dietary issues with the goal of decreasing pain and suffering in the world is a outward expression of stupidity . No man can play God good enough to comprehend what the future outcome would be for the actions made in the present. Man has been destroying the world for hundreds of years trying to do this very thing.

Alias
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » June 8th, 2019, 11:21 pm

MAYA EL wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 12:52 am
All of this is completely hypothetical and completely rooted in ignorance. For someone to assume what's ethical in regards to dietary issues with the goal of decreasing pain and suffering in the world is a outward expression of stupidity . No man can play God good enough to comprehend what the future outcome would be for the actions made in the present. Man has been destroying the world for hundreds of years trying to do this very thing.
Man has never done any destroying in order to reduce suffering. It was for gain, for power, for glory, for convenience, for profit, and for more profit. Ethics are simple, can be summed up in a single sentence, which every schoolchild knows. Apologetics for self-aggrandizing, self-serving, self-indulgent behaviour are complicated, because their inherent dishonesty needs so much verbal camouflage.

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detail
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by detail » June 9th, 2019, 3:35 am

Well , one could at least make the argument , that the consumption of meat , has as a consequence a large CO_2 production than the consumption of vegan food. Thus the ethics comes into play with the idea of an environmental protection of our earth.

MAYA EL
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by MAYA EL » June 10th, 2019, 7:08 pm

Alias wrote:
June 8th, 2019, 11:21 pm
MAYA EL wrote:
June 4th, 2019, 12:52 am
All of this is completely hypothetical and completely rooted in ignorance. For someone to assume what's ethical in regards to dietary issues with the goal of decreasing pain and suffering in the world is a outward expression of stupidity . No man can play God good enough to comprehend what the future outcome would be for the actions made in the present. Man has been destroying the world for hundreds of years trying to do this very thing.
Man has never done any destroying in order to reduce suffering. It was for gain, for power, for glory, for convenience, for profit, and for more profit. Ethics are simple, can be summed up in a single sentence, which every schoolchild knows. Apologetics for self-aggrandizing, self-serving, self-indulgent behaviour are complicated, because their inherent dishonesty needs so much verbal camouflage.
I partially agree with you however as most may notice the common mentality in the world is to point the finger at the "bad guy" but what most people fail to see is if everybody is pointing the finger at "the bad guy" that leaves no extra characters to be "the good guy".

In other words we often justify our actions and say that they're good because of the desired outcome we strive for and while we're pointing at "the bad guy" trying to stop us they're doing the identical same thing.

I don't think I've ever seen "the bad guy" on TV evil laughing talking about how he's "destroying the world and no one can stop him" but I have seen are plenty of good guys pointing the finger at other countries calling them " the bad guy"

Alias
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » June 11th, 2019, 10:32 pm

MAYA EL wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 7:08 pm

In other words we often justify our actions and say that they're good because of the desired outcome we strive for and while we're pointing at "the bad guy" trying to stop us they're doing the identical same thing.
The chickens and lambs aren't pointing anything and haven't done anything. We don't kill them to make the world safe for worms and grass, and we don't kill foxes and wolves to spare the chickens and lambs suffering; we kill them to have more chickens and lambs to kill for ourselves.

MAYA EL
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by MAYA EL » June 12th, 2019, 1:54 am

Alias wrote:
June 11th, 2019, 10:32 pm
MAYA EL wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 7:08 pm

In other words we often justify our actions and say that they're good because of the desired outcome we strive for and while we're pointing at "the bad guy" trying to stop us they're doing the identical same thing.
The chickens and lambs aren't pointing anything and haven't done anything. We don't kill them to make the world safe for worms and grass, and we don't kill foxes and wolves to spare the chickens and lambs suffering; we kill them to have more chickens and lambs to kill for ourselves.
Yes I agree that is why we kill them . However how many of them do you think would die if we were to just shut down all the farms and let all the animals go? Furthermore we are omnivores we are made to eat meat and vegetables this is a fact and it's something a lot of people have a hard time getting over but quite frankly they need to because death it's a fact of life from Every Avenue .

Yes I realize we don't have the most Humane methods especially in America however there's a price to pay for everything and for the lifestyle that you have a sacrifices made.

A different aspect of it you could look at other than the fact that not eating animals would not save them from suffering is that you're still causing them to suffer by using electricity vehicles the products you buy which were shipped on vehicles/ Tech. So if you truly want to be humane you're going to have to becoming homeless walking hobo wearing clothes you made yourself from plant material leave Harvest it yourself and don't use any form of Technology. Not to mention the way Society is laid out good luck sustaining dietary requirements for billions of people especially the way our cities are laid out especially if you just let all the poor wittle animals go free

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Sculptor1
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 » June 12th, 2019, 6:48 am

If the world was vegan there would be no sheep, cattle, pastures, chickens.
That would be a sad world.

Alias
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » June 12th, 2019, 11:36 pm

MAYA EL wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 1:54 am
Yes I agree that is why we kill them . However how many of them do you think would die if we were to just shut down all the farms and let all the animals go?
They would all die; some sooner than you intended, some later. And then no more "food animals" would be bred and tortured.
Furthermore we are omnivores we are made to eat meat and vegetables this is a fact and it's something a lot of people have a hard time getting over but quite frankly they need to because death it's a fact of life from Every Avenue .
We are not "made" to do anything. We do as we please.
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

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LuckyR
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR » June 14th, 2019, 12:52 am

There's nothing wrong with being vegan just as there's nothing inherently wrong with eating meat. I do have a problem with the methods of industrial agriculture and therefore am essentially non dairy.

I don't have a problem with a significant reduction in the need for farm animals.
"As usual... it depends."

MAYA EL
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by MAYA EL » June 19th, 2019, 11:48 pm

Alias wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 11:36 pm
MAYA EL wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 1:54 am
Yes I agree that is why we kill them . However how many of them do you think would die if we were to just shut down all the farms and let all the animals go?
They would all die; some sooner than you intended, some later. And then no more "food animals" would be bred and tortured.
Furthermore we are omnivores we are made to eat meat and vegetables this is a fact and it's something a lot of people have a hard time getting over but quite frankly they need to because death it's a fact of life from Every Avenue .
We are not "made" to do anything. We do as we please.
Apparently my last reply wasn't approved by the opinion of the moderators so hopefully this one will be.

When I say we are made to eat vegetables and meat I'm speaking from a biological standpoint the way our teeth are designed our Jaws are stomachs and intestinal tract. Of course we do as we please and I'm sorry if things dying offends you but you were apparently raised in the city and not exposed to any form of death and when you were exposed to it the adults around you poorly informed you how to handle said death. You're probably also and given a terrible representation of how mankind used to live in the past before technology. There's also some scientific studies being done on how due to our food becoming consistently softer it is contributing to our growing need for dental reconstructive surgery and braces because (in theory ) we are no longer eating at a.m. hard dense diet and because of this our Jaws are not properly developing as we grow up and this is causing crowding as well as sinus issues I will try to post a link if I can find it it's been about a year or so since I was looking into it.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 » June 20th, 2019, 3:46 am

MAYA EL wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:48 pm
Alias wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 11:36 pm

They would all die; some sooner than you intended, some later. And then no more "food animals" would be bred and tortured.


We are not "made" to do anything. We do as we please.
Apparently my last reply wasn't approved by the opinion of the moderators so hopefully this one will be.

When I say we are made to eat vegetables and meat I'm speaking from a biological standpoint the way our teeth are designed our Jaws are stomachs and intestinal tract. Of course we do as we please and I'm sorry if things dying offends you but you were apparently raised in the city and not exposed to any form of death and when you were exposed to it the adults around you poorly informed you how to handle said death. You're probably also and given a terrible representation of how mankind used to live in the past before technology. There's also some scientific studies being done on how due to our food becoming consistently softer it is contributing to our growing need for dental reconstructive surgery and braces because (in theory ) we are no longer eating at a.m. hard dense diet and because of this our Jaws are not properly developing as we grow up and this is causing crowding as well as sinus issues I will try to post a link if I can find it it's been about a year or so since I was looking into it.
Whilst it is true that human dentition is changing. It has not changed genetically, but the structure of the growing teeth responds to changing diet.
The main difference, so the theory goes is that in medieval times the two sets of teeth would meet perfectly all round to the front of the mouth, whereas today most people's top set lies over the bottom set at the front of the mouth. The other consequence is that there is seldom enough room for the wisdom teeth to come out. They put this down to medieval people having to chew through bread full of grit and tough meat, which meant larger jaws and straighter teeth.

Per se it is not the cause of all dental problems, that is more due to the problem of too many individuals surviving; what traits would have been selected out is allowed to thrive since having bad teeth is no longer is a selective pressure. This is the area where even the genetics is changing, as the preservation of poor teeth is allowed to get to the next generation.

As for death. In times past most of us would have had to confront death on a regular basic; a loved one, or killing for food. Today children grow up thinking animals are like humans; I call that the Disney effect. And there is a separation between the chilled food in the supermarket , clean, bloodless, often processed, and not visually connected to real animals. When they finally figure out that Duck a L'orange is actually connected to Donald Duck, or that lamb kebabs are connected to Larry the Lamb this leads to horror. And since Granny was never seen stiff, but taken away in a shiny box to be taken to heaven; people grow up with a sanitized view of death.

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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » June 20th, 2019, 9:37 am

MAYA EL wrote:
June 19th, 2019, 11:48 pm
When I say we are made to eat vegetables and meat I'm speaking from a biological standpoint the way our teeth are designed our Jaws are stomachs and intestinal tract.
I am aware of the biology. I am also aware, as I'm reasonably sure you are, that we have the capacity to find more sources of food than any other animal on earth; we are also able to adapt to, and thrive on, a far wider variety of foods than most other animals. Beyond that, we have the technological capability to duplicate all the nutrients we need, without resorting to torture - or even getting our [canvas] shoes dirty.
Of course we do as we please and I'm sorry if things dying offends you
So, killing is what pleases you? Yes, that does offend me.
but you were apparently raised in the city and not exposed to any form of death and when you were exposed to it the adults around you poorly informed you how to handle said death.
There you have three incorrect assumptions, based on nothing but prejudice. Participated in a lot of pig-killings, have you? Fun, was it? Enjoy the sounds and smells, did you? Did you find washing the sausage-casing particularly rewarding? Adults tell you, if you do a good job, you get a fire-roasted ear, did they?
Please to refrain from telling other people about their experience.
You're probably also and given a terrible representation of how mankind used to live in the past before technology.
Given? I have some basic education. Do you assert that every archeologist and anthropologist and historian I've read in the past 50 years was misrepresenting their field of study? Even were that so, what's the relevance to factory farming?
There's also some scientific studies being done on how due to our food becoming consistently softer it is contributing to our growing need for dental reconstructive surgery and braces because (in theory ) we are no longer eating at a.m. hard dense diet and because of this our Jaws are not properly developing as we grow up and this is causing crowding as well as sinus issues I will try to post a link if I can find it it's been about a year or so since I was looking into it.
And? Your Jaws would probably thank you for more raw broccoli stems and less processed cheese on ground beef on a bleached white bread-like substance. Not to mention your Teeth and Colon.

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