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Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
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Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 10th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Anyways nothing is perfect in life and yes there are things that need looking at when comes to certain aspects of veganism but as I said creating a leather substitute that's as good as the real thing - is very realistic, just give it time.

In the mean time you are getting more and more high quality leather substitutes being created, therefore it's realistic to think that leather substitutes will end up being just as good as the real thing.. when it comes to pants and jackets they already are as good.

It's like this:

I'm sure if in 1969 you told people by 2016, you would be walking around with mobile phone that has the same processing power as the Apollo guidance computer, people would have thought you were crazy but that's the reality these days.

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 10th, 2019, 9:16 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 4:58 pm
There's no need since leather fulfils everything we need from it.
Just because you believe there's no need to do something, that doesn't mean we can't do it.

Alias
Posts: 2717
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » July 10th, 2019, 10:18 pm

Belindi wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 7:37 am
Pterodactyls may have sung like blackbirds. I am allowed to feel golden eagles are special.They have certain attributes that are easier to make poetry from.
Feel, yes. Poetry, yes.
Science, no. Ethics, no.

Alias
Posts: 2717
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » July 10th, 2019, 10:29 pm

Hey, Kaz - I respect the hell out of your effort here.
But there is no way you can win.
If your ethical stance doesn't instantly fix every wrong in the entire world, and if you yourself are, or have ever been, less pure than the proverbial driven snow - like, you ate Jello as a child or owned a leather watch-band - everything you say is irrelevant.
(PS - nobody needs fake leather. Everything made of leather can just as well be made of hemp or canvas or duck, and they'd all be cheaper and lower maintenance. We haven't actually needed animal skins since the invention of weaving.)
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 10th, 2019, 10:42 pm

Alias wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 10:29 pm
Hey, Kaz - I respect the hell out of your effort here.
But there is no way you can win.
If your ethical stance doesn't instantly fix every wrong in the entire world, and if you yourself are, or have ever been, less pure than the proverbial driven snow - like, you ate Jello as a child or owned a leather watch-band - everything you say is irrelevant.
I've just don't see why me eating meat before, makes what I'm saying here irrelevant.. that's all.
(PS - nobody needs fake leather. Everything made of leather can just as well be made of hemp or canvas or duck, and they'd all be cheaper and lower maintenance. We haven't actually needed animal skins since the invention of weaving.)
I have never said we need leather and a leather substitutes I have mentioned aren't fake PVC type leather.

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 10th, 2019, 10:47 pm

Anyways why does my ethical stance, need to automatically correct every wrong for it to be relevant.. why do I need to be pure as snow - things like I should never eat meat my entire life for what I say to be relevant... are you saying that I'm a hypocrite?

I'm genuinely.

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 10th, 2019, 11:46 pm

Alias wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 10:29 pm
Hey, Kaz - I respect the hell out of your effort here.
But there is no way you can win.
If your ethical stance doesn't instantly fix every wrong in the entire world, and if you yourself are, or have ever been, less pure than the proverbial driven snow - like, you ate Jello as a child or owned a leather watch-band - everything you say is irrelevant.
(PS - nobody needs fake leather. Everything made of leather can just as well be made of hemp or canvas or duck, and they'd all be cheaper and lower maintenance. We haven't actually needed animal skins since the invention of weaving.)
I reread what you said, so disregard what I just said..

I have a feeling what you were trying to say is that when it comes to the general population, I'm not going to be able to win because of my past (I ate meat before) and if that's what you're saying, I agree with you -that will never change, unfortunately.

IMO people tend to attack the messenger, if they can't attack the message - if that makes sense.. is that what you mean?

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Sculptor1
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 » July 11th, 2019, 4:42 am

Kaz_1983 wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:25 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 4:58 pm
There's no need since leather fulfils everything we need from it.
It's not a question of whether there's no need to do something (like you said) but rather whether creating a very high quality leather substitute is very realistic or not.
It is exactly that question.
Why would I ever support a chemical industry that replaced leather, when having animals around us eat grass on the land, giving us natural fertiliser in a natural environment is preferable.
I do not want to be a part of your faux, synthetic dystopia.

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 11th, 2019, 5:58 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 4:42 am
Why would I ever support a chemical industry that replaced leather, when having animals around us eat grass on the land, giving us natural fertiliser in a natural environment is preferable.
You need to use lots of chemicals in the tanning process.

Which is bad for the environment.

See the tanning of pig or cow skin uses a cocktail of dangerous chemicals, which produce lots of waste with a high concentration of pollutants.

I'm guessing a lot of the pollution comes from leftover chemical waste from the tanning process, with the chemical waste not being contained properly -it just ends up leaking into rivers/waterways/nearby land.

This is what happens in animal agriculture too.

Oh and with pretty much all of the leather coming from China and India regulation is difficult.... without regulations, corners are cut and making as much money as possible - is the goal.

For example, the pig or cow skin could be vegetable tanned - which would be better for the environment but the majority of it is chromium-tanned - which is very bad for the environment.

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 11th, 2019, 7:43 am

Sculptor1 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 4:42 am
Why would I ever support a chemical industry.....
Meat itself isn't evil but it does contain plenty of chemicals... things like synthetic growth hormones - they are testosterone, progesterone, zeranol and trenbolone acetate ..the chemical trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO) is present in meat - it's linked to heart disease, not to mention synthetic antibiotics - which are widely used.. so if you buy meat, your are supporting the chemical companies that make them.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 » July 11th, 2019, 6:12 pm

Kaz_1983 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 5:58 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 4:42 am
Why would I ever support a chemical industry that replaced leather, when having animals around us eat grass on the land, giving us natural fertiliser in a natural environment is preferable.
You need to use lots of chemicals in the tanning process.
Piss.
all you need is piss.

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Sculptor1
Posts: 779
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 » July 11th, 2019, 6:14 pm

Kaz_1983 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 7:43 am
Sculptor1 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 4:42 am
Why would I ever support a chemical industry.....
Meat itself isn't evil but it does contain plenty of chemicals... things like synthetic growth hormones - they are testosterone, progesterone, zeranol and trenbolone acetate ..the chemical trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO) is present in meat - it's linked to heart disease, not to mention synthetic antibiotics - which are widely used.. so if you buy meat, your are supporting the chemical companies that make them.
You can say the same **** about vegetables.
This is not a problem with meat - but with the way we process all food these days.

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 11th, 2019, 7:28 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 6:14 pm
You can say the same **** about vegetables.
This is not a problem with meat - but with the way we process all food these days.
Yes your right, I never said otherwise..

It's a case of you claim that "biodegradable faux leather is bad for the environment", then I say "so is the tanning process used to create leather" - I claim that "meat has lots of chemicals in it too",. then you point out that "vegetable farmers use pesticides"

That's said:

Beef results in up to 105kg of greenhouse gases per 100g of meat, while tofu produces less than 3.5kg.... 15,000 litres of water are needed to make 1 kg beef, compared to 2,500 litres of water needed to make 1 kg tofu. .

Those numbers aren't equal tho

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 11th, 2019, 9:40 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 6:12 pm
Piss.
all you need is piss.
You can tan leathers with urine but nobody does that anymore.... it's better for the environment, so why not?

Because it's impractical obviously, not to mention that it's cheaper and easier for everybody to just buy leather from China or India... the problem is regulation is hard there, money is king, workers are disposable and things like environmentally friendly mean nothing.

Kaz_1983
Posts: 229
Joined: May 26th, 2019, 6:52 am

Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » July 12th, 2019, 7:27 am


Inside an Indian Tannery | The Ganges

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SQp11Y0v6M0


Toxic Tanneries Poisoning Workers in Bangladesh

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a0UCeTjhSJI

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