Being vegan for ethical reasons.

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Kaz_1983
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 8th, 2019, 6:22 pm

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... html%3famp
"this could also be traumatising for children getting to know the animals and then knowing they are going to die."
And what's the problem with that? Nothing IMO, anyways what do people think about that?

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LuckyR
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR » September 9th, 2019, 2:25 am

Kaz_1983 wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 6:08 pm
Belindi wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 11:42 am
Frugality is sexy but it takes time for people to adapt. Therefore we say "Just have one meat-free day per week". Or " Omit the most cruel foods" (Foie gras is the most cruel).
Obviously I'd prefer people go vegan/plant based rather than just do "meat free Mondays" - I can't help that but I do realise that it isn't practical, nor possible in most cases.

Switching to plant based milk, trying some vegan products, buy beans rather than pork next time etc etc, that's both practical and possible. People should do that.
Letting children know where their food comes from is not on all the curriculums yet but it will be.
I let my son eat meat if he wants, he's got $5 a week to spend on meat. BUT, I make sure that he knows what he's eating, you that "...a pig was killed for that peice of pork"

I'm gonna make sure he watches some slaughter house footage in a few years.
You're underestimating the power of small shifts when multiplied by hundreds of millions of consumers. If vegetarians go vegan, no redmeat people go non dairy, regular folks lower their beef consumption and use non dairy creamer, the multiplicative effect can be substantial.
"As usual... it depends."

Belindi
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Belindi » September 9th, 2019, 6:31 am

Lucky, that's reasonable optimism :)

Alias
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » September 9th, 2019, 11:54 pm

LuckyR wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 2:36 am
I wasn't discussing "bad" (vs good), I was discussing ethical and moral. Several bad things are ethical.
But not rape - at least, not illegal rape. I wonder what your criteria are for "ethical".

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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Alias » September 9th, 2019, 11:57 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 5:07 pm
The people of PNQ have been living with no change to the environment for 30,000 years. And until the white man arrived on the scene Australian aborigines, had minimal impact for 40,000 years.
So was everyone else, except for the chronic overhunting, until civilization put an end to it.
Now, nobody is.

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LuckyR
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR » September 10th, 2019, 2:55 am

Belindi wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 6:31 am
Lucky, that's reasonable optimism :)
As it turns out, we don't need to get to zero demand to impact the industry. Already the 25% decrease in milk consumption in the US has forced marginal players out of the industry. Another 10% would likely be the tipping point towards irreversible decline.
"As usual... it depends."

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LuckyR
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR » September 10th, 2019, 2:59 am

Alias wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 11:54 pm
LuckyR wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 2:36 am
I wasn't discussing "bad" (vs good), I was discussing ethical and moral. Several bad things are ethical.
But not rape - at least, not illegal rape. I wonder what your criteria are for "ethical".
Very true. Rape (as mentioned before) is universally unethical, meaning it violates the ethical standard of all modern societies.

OTOH, slavery in the antebellum South, was wrong, yet didn't violate the ethical standard of that society.
"As usual... it depends."

Kaz_1983
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Kaz_1983 » September 10th, 2019, 4:48 am

LuckyR wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 2:55 am
Belindi wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 6:31 am
Lucky, that's reasonable optimism :)
As it turns out, we don't need to get to zero demand to impact the industry. Already the 25% decrease in milk consumption in the US has forced marginal players out of the industry. Another 10% would likely be the tipping point towards irreversible decline.
A tipping point is just when small change becomes significant enough to cause a larger, more important change. Give it a few generations - the babies born today, will see the transformation from meat and dairy being common-place, to when the large majority is vegan.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 » September 10th, 2019, 10:17 am

Alias wrote:
September 9th, 2019, 11:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
September 8th, 2019, 5:07 pm
The people of PNQ have been living with no change to the environment for 30,000 years. And until the white man arrived on the scene Australian aborigines, had minimal impact for 40,000 years.
So was everyone else, except for the chronic overhunting, until civilization put an end to it.
Now, nobody is.
An "IS" is not an "Ought".

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LuckyR
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR » September 10th, 2019, 11:39 am

Kaz_1983 wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 4:48 am
LuckyR wrote:
September 10th, 2019, 2:55 am


As it turns out, we don't need to get to zero demand to impact the industry. Already the 25% decrease in milk consumption in the US has forced marginal players out of the industry. Another 10% would likely be the tipping point towards irreversible decline.
A tipping point is just when small change becomes significant enough to cause a larger, more important change. Give it a few generations - the babies born today, will see the transformation from meat and dairy being common-place, to when the large majority is vegan.
Thanks for the definition. I agree that continuing the slow steady decline is going to make the inevitable happen... eventually. I was describing the point where (by my estimation) a tiny further change likely will bring about an economic shift of huge proportions, IOW a classic tipping point.
"As usual... it depends."

Belindi
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Belindi » September 11th, 2019, 6:12 am

Kaz wrote:
A tipping point is just when small change becomes significant enough to cause a larger, more important change. Give it a few generations - the babies born today, will see the transformation from meat and dairy being common-place, to when the large majority is vegan.
I don't offer the following as evidence from authority although it's accepted as evidence by believers. It's rather well expressed though:

And again he said, “To what shall I compare the kingdom of God? It is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until it was all leavened.”

— Luke 13:20–21,


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Liverpool
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Liverpool » September 29th, 2019, 7:39 pm

I get that people have plenty of objections to veganism but I'm sure all of us agree that not killing animals is not a good thing?

But we don't for food and to wear i.e. leather, is a good thing. It's just can alternatives that are as nutritious, as durable/good for the plant I.e. biodegradable.Right?

What if that's all those concerns are meet (technical advances over time are crazy)? IMO it would be unacceptable to REFUSE to go plant-based/vegan and deciding to eat meat would be seen in the same light as smoking (in terms of the social stigma and how people judge smokers)....

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LuckyR
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by LuckyR » September 29th, 2019, 9:57 pm

Liverpool wrote:
September 29th, 2019, 7:39 pm
I get that people have plenty of objections to veganism but I'm sure all of us agree that not killing animals is not a good thing?

But we don't for food and to wear i.e. leather, is a good thing. It's just can alternatives that are as nutritious, as durable/good for the plant I.e. biodegradable.Right?

What if that's all those concerns are meet (technical advances over time are crazy)? IMO it would be unacceptable to REFUSE to go plant-based/vegan and deciding to eat meat would be seen in the same light as smoking (in terms of the social stigma and how people judge smokers)....
What objections? To personally being vegan?
"As usual... it depends."

Belindi
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Belindi » September 30th, 2019, 4:13 am

Liverpool, let's leave aside for the present purpose those people who kill things for fun.
I agree there will probably be a social stigma attached to using animals as commodities. Some groups have more power to change social mores . At present the political right is gaining power . However even the political right will come to accept the necessity of not eating meat, despite some eccentric individuals' continuing to do so.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Being vegan for ethical reasons.

Post by Sculptor1 » September 30th, 2019, 4:24 am

Belindi wrote:
September 30th, 2019, 4:13 am
Liverpool, let's leave aside for the present purpose those people who kill things for fun.
I agree there will probably be a social stigma attached to using animals as commodities.
Historically it is the lifeblood of many cultures and remains so today even in the west's farming culture.
Some groups have more power to change social mores . At present the political right is gaining power . However even the political right will come to accept the necessity of not eating meat, despite some eccentric individuals' continuing to do so.
There is no necessity for not eating meat. Most farm land is "marginal" and incapable of growing edible plants for human consumption. Farming animals can be far more eco-friendly since it most mimics the cycles of the natural environment.

Less meat, maybe. Cereals for human rather than beef consumption obviously.

But whilst people still need to walk with their feet, leather is the most eco-friendly way to make shoes.

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