Is abortion wrong?

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Steve3007
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Steve3007 » February 7th, 2020, 4:48 am

Terrapin Station wrote:I see it as "Persons that wholly contain another person--however the person being contained got there, whether by invitation or not--deserve to be able to choose what to do, including killing, the person wholly contained inside of them."
So the tip of the head peaking out ("crowning" I believe it's called in the pregnancy game, as I dimly recall) is presumably enough to mean that the baby is not "wholly contained"?

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Steve3007
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Steve3007 » February 7th, 2020, 8:16 am

I think one problem with this "wholly contained" business is that often the greatest harm is done by one person to another by only being partially contained within them.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Terrapin Station » February 7th, 2020, 8:45 am

Wdk7 wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 4:52 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 4:36 pm


Another way to write what I said. "I agree it's human. I don't see that as sufficient for suggesting a moral stance."



I see it as "Persons that wholly contain another person--however the person being contained got there, whether by invitation or not--deserve to be able to choose what to do, including killing, the person wholly contained inside of them."
This would suggest that the autonomy of the mother supersedes the autonomy of the unborn child. I find them to be equal as long as life is not being threatened due to uncontrollable circumstances.
The autonomy of the container, yes. The way I always put it is this: if a 40 year-old person could be wholly contained inside another person--say we were talking about two men, and the man who is the "containee" was invited to be wholly inside the other person, I'd still give the container person the legal right to kill the containee without his consent.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Terrapin Station » February 7th, 2020, 8:53 am

Steve3007 wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 4:48 am
Terrapin Station wrote:I see it as "Persons that wholly contain another person--however the person being contained got there, whether by invitation or not--deserve to be able to choose what to do, including killing, the person wholly contained inside of them."
So the tip of the head peaking out ("crowning" I believe it's called in the pregnancy game, as I dimly recall) is presumably enough to mean that the baby is not "wholly contained"?
Yes, at that point you can no longer have an abortion. You'd need to decide prior to that. ;-)

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LuckyR
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » February 7th, 2020, 2:54 pm

Steve3007 wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 4:48 am
Terrapin Station wrote:I see it as "Persons that wholly contain another person--however the person being contained got there, whether by invitation or not--deserve to be able to choose what to do, including killing, the person wholly contained inside of them."
So the tip of the head peaking out ("crowning" I believe it's called in the pregnancy game, as I dimly recall) is presumably enough to mean that the baby is not "wholly contained"?
It is not necessary to contort logic to try to accommodate an extreme outlier position.
"As usual... it depends."

Wdk7
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 13th, 2020, 7:46 pm

LuckyR wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 4:38 am
Wdk7 wrote:
February 6th, 2020, 11:48 am


The idea that you have jurisdiction over your person. I agree with this to the point it affects the life of another. If it does not bring you life threatening harm to carry it to term It shouldn't be killed. Also, if you do conssider a fetus to be a person would it not also have a right to autonomy?
Exactly. A fetus is a potential person, not a person. And just as a parent has extreme powers over their children when they are people, the mother has even more decision making powers over a potential person.
Why do you consider it to be a potential person, and not a person already?

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Greta
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » February 13th, 2020, 11:01 pm

Wdk7, take a stab at the answer. Why would someone who is interested in human reason tend to consider a foetus to be a potential person rather than an actualised person?

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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by LuckyR » February 14th, 2020, 1:24 pm

Wdk7 wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 7:46 pm
LuckyR wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 4:38 am


Exactly. A fetus is a potential person, not a person. And just as a parent has extreme powers over their children when they are people, the mother has even more decision making powers over a potential person.
Why do you consider it to be a potential person, and not a person already?
Uummm… because it lacks essentially everything that makes a person, a person.
"As usual... it depends."

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Greta
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Greta » February 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm

A standard mammalian pet would thrash any foetus in terms of reason, logic and expressions of love. Aside from circumstance, morphology and DNA, our pet dogs and cats are FAR more humanlike than any human (or other) foetus.

I am surprised that such reverence is given to the fertilised egg (and so little care given to eggs and sperm otherwise). At first the embryo is a single-celled organism. microorgnism. Like the things you wipe off the sink with disinfectant. Yet this zygote, this germ that simply breaks into smaller cells at first, is granted more rights in some jurisdictions than grown humans.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 » February 14th, 2020, 7:33 pm

Wdk7 wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 7:46 pm
LuckyR wrote:
February 7th, 2020, 4:38 am


Exactly. A fetus is a potential person, not a person. And just as a parent has extreme powers over their children when they are people, the mother has even more decision making powers over a potential person.
Why do you consider it to be a potential person, and not a person already?
For the same reason that an acorn is not a dinner table.

Wdk7
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 14th, 2020, 8:01 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 7:33 pm
Wdk7 wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 7:46 pm


Why do you consider it to be a potential person, and not a person already?
For the same reason that an acorn is not a dinner table.
Your response amounts to saying "It just isn't." Which is not much of a rebutal. Though I'm pretty sure when you let a fetus develop it will grow into a more comonlly accepted version of a person. Where as an acorn would never become a table when left to its own devices. Your example doesn't coralate well either.

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Sculptor1
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Sculptor1 » February 14th, 2020, 8:44 pm

Wdk7 wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 8:01 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 7:33 pm


For the same reason that an acorn is not a dinner table.
Your response amounts to saying "It just isn't." Which is not much of a rebutal. Though I'm pretty sure when you let a fetus develop it will grow into a more comonlly accepted version of a person. Where as an acorn would never become a table when left to its own devices. Your example doesn't coralate well either.
Not at all. It correlates perfectly.

An acorn can become a dinner table, with time and help. They are, however, not the same.

A foetus cannot become a person of its own accord either. It takes the willing co-operation of a woman and the sacrifice of her liberty and sustenance.

Wdk7
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 14th, 2020, 9:08 pm

Sculptor1 wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 8:44 pm
Wdk7 wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 8:01 pm


Your response amounts to saying "It just isn't." Which is not much of a rebutal. Though I'm pretty sure when you let a fetus develop it will grow into a more comonlly accepted version of a person. Where as an acorn would never become a table when left to its own devices. Your example doesn't coralate well either.
Not at all. It correlates perfectly.

An acorn can become a dinner table, with time and help. They are, however, not the same.

A foetus cannot become a person of its own accord either. It takes the willing co-operation of a woman and the sacrifice of her liberty and sustenance.
I fetus will naturally grow to be a normal person. An acorn will not naturally become a table. It takes direct interference for an acorn to become a table. A fetus will become a full grown person as long as no direct interfence is taken aside from the natural exceptions.

Wdk7
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 14th, 2020, 9:32 pm

Greta wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 11:01 pm
Wdk7, take a stab at the answer. Why would someone who is interested in human reason tend to consider a foetus to be a potential person rather than an actualised person?
Because they are focused on mentality of humans. Their construct of what makes humans human is what they are in their head, and not what they are by means of creation. Since a fetus takes time to develop their cognitive abilities and personalities, they conclude that the fetus only has the potential to become a person. That's my stab at it anyways.

Wdk7
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Re: Is abortion wrong?

Post by Wdk7 » February 14th, 2020, 9:44 pm

Greta wrote:
February 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
A standard mammalian pet would thrash any foetus in terms of reason, logic and expressions of love. Aside from circumstance, morphology and DNA, our pet dogs and cats are FAR more humanlike than any human (or other) foetus.

I am surprised that such reverence is given to the fertilised egg (and so little care given to eggs and sperm otherwise). At first the embryo is a single-celled organism. microorgnism. Like the things you wipe off the sink with disinfectant. Yet this zygote, this germ that simply breaks into smaller cells at first, is granted more rights in some jurisdictions than grown humans.
Sperm and eggs are an extention of a persons body that carries the abillity to reproduce their species. The only right they are trully given is the right to not be killed, and matter how small of an organism they are they are still human by DNA.

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