To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

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Marvin_Edwards
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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 13th, 2020, 2:32 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 1:57 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 1:39 pm


Well, if life is not good, then everything else is irrelevant. The problem with subjectivity is that it is impossible to settle any disputes. There must be some piece of common ground.
But there's a problem with claiming objectivity when it's not the case for something.

Maybe some things we simply can't settle aside from trying to let people do their own thing unhindered as much as possible.
What is the proper case for claiming objectivity?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Terrapin Station » October 13th, 2020, 5:20 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 2:32 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 1:57 pm

But there's a problem with claiming objectivity when it's not the case for something.

Maybe some things we simply can't settle aside from trying to let people do their own thing unhindered as much as possible.
What is the proper case for claiming objectivity?
Obviously when something obtains independently of persons, or more specifically, independently of mental phenomena.

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 13th, 2020, 5:51 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:20 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 2:32 pm


What is the proper case for claiming objectivity?
Obviously when something obtains independently of persons, or more specifically, independently of mental phenomena.
And how would we recognize such a thing, seeing as we are persons and we can only experience things through mental phenomena?

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Greta
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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Greta » October 13th, 2020, 6:32 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 1:57 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 1:39 pm


Well, if life is not good, then everything else is irrelevant. The problem with subjectivity is that it is impossible to settle any disputes. There must be some piece of common ground.
... trying to let people do their own thing unhindered as much as possible.
That starts out nicely enough but, as people overstep there will be a need to introduce more laws. More loopholes found, more laws written. Before long we'd be back to where we are today, balanced between tyranny and anarchy.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Terrapin Station » October 16th, 2020, 9:05 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:51 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:20 pm


Obviously when something obtains independently of persons, or more specifically, independently of mental phenomena.
And how would we recognize such a thing, seeing as we are persons and we can only experience things through mental phenomena?
So you're a(t least an epistemic) solipsist?

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Terrapin Station » October 16th, 2020, 9:06 am

Greta wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 6:32 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 1:57 pm

... trying to let people do their own thing unhindered as much as possible.
That starts out nicely enough but, as people overstep there will be a need to introduce more laws. More loopholes found, more laws written. Before long we'd be back to where we are today, balanced between tyranny and anarchy.
Hence "as much as possible."

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Greta
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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Greta » October 16th, 2020, 4:21 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 9:06 am
Greta wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 6:32 pm

That starts out nicely enough but, as people overstep there will be a need to introduce more laws. More loopholes found, more laws written. Before long we'd be back to where we are today, balanced between tyranny and anarchy.
Hence "as much as possible."
Still, the scenario described above remains relevant. Besides, once you have a good system it will evolve into something else anyway. Look at how democracy is dying, being crushed under the weight of the masses' ignorance and the Murdoch media's relentless half-century drive to turn democracies into oligarchies.

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 16th, 2020, 9:48 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 9:05 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 13th, 2020, 5:51 pm


And how would we recognize such a thing, seeing as we are persons and we can only experience things through mental phenomena?
So you're a(t least an epistemic) solipsist?
Nope. I'm an objective positivist and an empiricist.

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Arjen » October 17th, 2020, 7:28 am

Greta wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 4:21 pm
Still, the scenario described above remains relevant. Besides, once you have a good system it will evolve into something else anyway. Look at how democracy is dying, being crushed under the weight of the masses' ignorance and the Murdoch media's relentless half-century drive to turn democracies into oligarchies.
It is being crushed under the weight of censorship and propaganda masquerading as free press.
When that stops, the democracy will rejuvenate.
The saying that what is true in theory is not always true in practice, means that the theory is wrong!
~Immanuel Kant

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Terrapin Station
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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Terrapin Station » October 17th, 2020, 11:24 am

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 9:48 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 9:05 am


So you're a(t least an epistemic) solipsist?
Nope. I'm an objective positivist and an empiricist.
So then it shouldn't be a mystery to you how we know things that are external to us. You don't believe that we only know our own minds.

Which makes me wonder why you'd ask how we'd know such things.

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 17th, 2020, 5:21 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:24 am
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 16th, 2020, 9:48 pm


Nope. I'm an objective positivist and an empiricist.
So then it shouldn't be a mystery to you how we know things that are external to us. You don't believe that we only know our own minds.

Which makes me wonder why you'd ask how we'd know such things.
The brain organizes sensory input into a model of reality consisting of objects and events. When the model is accurate enough to be useful, as when we navigate our bodies through a doorway, we call that "reality", because it is our only access to reality. When the model is inaccurate enough to cause a problem, as when we walk into a glass door thinking it is open, then we call that an "illusion".

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Terrapin Station » October 17th, 2020, 7:11 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 5:21 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 11:24 am


So then it shouldn't be a mystery to you how we know things that are external to us. You don't believe that we only know our own minds.

Which makes me wonder why you'd ask how we'd know such things.
The brain organizes sensory input into a model of reality consisting of objects and events. When the model is accurate enough to be useful, as when we navigate our bodies through a doorway, we call that "reality", because it is our only access to reality. When the model is inaccurate enough to cause a problem, as when we walk into a glass door thinking it is open, then we call that an "illusion".
Either you think you can actually observe the external world or you do not. Your view on that is up to you, obviously.

If you think you can't observe the external world, you're a solipsist--at least an epistemic solipsist.

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 17th, 2020, 7:53 pm

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 7:11 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 5:21 pm


The brain organizes sensory input into a model of reality consisting of objects and events. When the model is accurate enough to be useful, as when we navigate our bodies through a doorway, we call that "reality", because it is our only access to reality. When the model is inaccurate enough to cause a problem, as when we walk into a glass door thinking it is open, then we call that an "illusion".
Either you think you can actually observe the external world or you do not. Your view on that is up to you, obviously.

If you think you can't observe the external world, you're a solipsist--at least an epistemic solipsist.
The answer to the riddles of solipsism and brain-in-a-vat are the same. For all practical purposes, we deal with the reality we see, hear, taste, and touch. We call that "reality".

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Terrapin Station » October 17th, 2020, 7:58 pm

Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 7:53 pm
The answer to the riddles of solipsism and brain-in-a-vat are the same. For all practical purposes, we deal with the reality we see, hear, taste, and touch. We call that "reality".
The question is what you think you're sensing. Your own mind? Or something else.

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Re: To what extent is utilitarianism morally acceptable?

Post by Marvin_Edwards » October 18th, 2020, 7:26 am

Terrapin Station wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 7:58 pm
Marvin_Edwards wrote:
October 17th, 2020, 7:53 pm
The answer to the riddles of solipsism and brain-in-a-vat are the same. For all practical purposes, we deal with the reality we see, hear, taste, and touch. We call that "reality".
The question is what you think you're sensing. Your own mind? Or something else.
Yes.

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