The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
Post Reply
popeye1945
Posts: 586
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by popeye1945 »

Seldom it seems to me do the range of the kinds of poverty that constitute one's possible environmental context get an equal mention with material poverty. It has been my observation that the level of other poverties makes a significant difference in the painfulness of material poverty. Like material poverty, these other kinds determine health, maturation, moral and intellectual development. I am thinking along with material poverty, of spiritual poverty, intellectual, emotional and social poverty. My focus for now is not global but on a community and family level, say considering the factory family system, which is the individual first environment context, and this first of systems is embedded within a society/community. I'll not go on I think there is enough here to spark the imaginations of our fellows, so I am all ears.
Angelo Cannata
Posts: 16
Joined: April 17th, 2021, 10:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: Heidegger
Contact:

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by Angelo Cannata »

I'd say that material poverty is a consequence of spiritual poverty. First is spiritual poverty of rich people, then there is the one of the oppressed people. I think that we should care, first, about spiritual poverty, because, if that care is authentic spirituality, it cannot ignore material poverty. Instead, if we pay attention to "bread and work" only, we are at risk of forgetting what bread and work are instruments for.
popeye1945
Posts: 586
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by popeye1945 »

perhaps I'll add a little something to help us get off the mark. We all grew up under various conditions, some had happy childhoods others no so much. What was right or what was wrong in your particular upbringing. Often it is considered bad taste to blame the parent, and when you look into it often they had horrific childhoods themselves. So good and bad parenting can flow through the generations, and just maybe your carrying on the tradition.
popeye1945
Posts: 586
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by popeye1945 »

Angelo Cannata wrote: May 4th, 2021, 3:19 am I'd say that material poverty is a consequence of spiritual poverty. First is spiritual poverty of rich people, then there is the one of the oppressed people. I think that we should care, first, about spiritual poverty, because, if that care is authentic spirituality, it cannot ignore material poverty. Instead, if we pay attention to "bread and work" only, we are at risk of forgetting what bread and work are instruments for.
Hi Angelo,
The first point you make I think is applicable to a global situation, and I find little to disagree with at that level. People have many many ideas about what is spiritual life. In my own case, I have the unpopular opinion that Christianity is not at all spiritual, but that is for perhaps another thread. Bread and work are fundamental to staying alive, the denial of which can be a topic of poverty, particularly on the global front. Perhaps the wanting of such global spirituality, of empathy and compassion rest near to home to on a global level, the very upbringing of a global population. Often the most passionate of believers are the least compassionate to their fellow, particularly if those fellows belong to one of their out-groups. It is a big topic one that might get us to look at the family factory system which tends to reproduce not just physically but turns out a psychological type model of its self. Like I said, its a very big topic.
Angelo Cannata
Posts: 16
Joined: April 17th, 2021, 10:02 am
Favorite Philosopher: Heidegger
Contact:

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by Angelo Cannata »

I think that, however we conceive spirituality, a good and rich spirituality should mind material poverty. But I think that the opposite direction, which is, minding material poverty and from there building a good spirituality, is not equally fruitful. I think that charity without any kind of spirituality, is not the best. I don’t trust very much empathy and compassion exactly for the reasons you said: they contain some tendency to create closed groups.
Alias
Posts: 3029
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by Alias »

popeye1945 wrote: May 4th, 2021, 2:09 am Seldom it seems to me do the range of the kinds of poverty that constitute one's possible environmental context get an equal mention with material poverty.
For that matter, there are several kinds of material poverty, as well.

But before you start classifying kinds of poverty, wouldn't it be useful to have a working definition of the term?

The word "poverty" is generally used as a comparative state of affluence, where some arbitrary amount [of something] is considered sufficient, and every degree of possession [of that something] above that line is a step in the comparative levels of wealth, while every degree of privation [of that something] below the line is a step in the comparative terms for poverty. In material terms, the 'poverty line' is an existing legal concept, below which an income is considered insufficient to a the standard of living a nation accepts as normal.
It has been my observation that the level of other poverties makes a significant difference in the painfulness of material poverty. Like material poverty, these other kinds determine health, maturation, moral and intellectual development. I am thinking along with material poverty, of spiritual poverty, intellectual, emotional and social poverty.
Unfortunately, material poverty tends to make the attainment of spiritual, intellectual, emotional and social wealth difficult, if not impossible. Material poverty in a materially wealthy nation puts the individual at a disadvantage in all other aspects of life:
- parents, or a single parent, who has to spend 12 or 14 hours a day working and another two hours traveling to and from work, has little time or energy for their children
- is tired and anxious all the time
- and can't afford clean, healthy housing for them
- or fresh nutritious food
- or after-school enrichment activities for them
- and the children have to compete with too many poor children very opportunities to escape from their circumstances
- even if those who do, will then have to compete with from more material wealth, who have a long head start on them

If the whole country is materially disadvantaged, multiply all of those disadvantages by millions.
popeye1945
Posts: 586
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by popeye1945 »

For that matter, there are several kinds of material poverty, as well.quote

Don't you mean different levels of material poverty?

But before you start classifying kinds of poverty, wouldn't it be useful to have a working definition of the term? quote

I think a general knowledge it means deprivation of some needed for one's life and well being just about covers it.


Unfortunately, material poverty tends to make the attainment of spiritual, intellectual, emotional and social wealth difficult, if not impossible. Material poverty in a materially wealthy nation puts the individual at a disadvantage in all other aspects of life: quote

Yes, that was the intention of the post, basically to examine the different forms of poverty and how they play off one another to the detriment of the individual.

If the whole country is materially disadvantaged, multiply all of those disadvantages by millions.
[/quote]

The intent of the thread is to examine the effects of poverty upon the individual, taken further you are into the conflict of nations.
Alias
Posts: 3029
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by Alias »

popeye1945 wrote: May 8th, 2021, 2:38 am [A - For that matter, there are several kinds of material poverty, as well.]

Don't you mean different levels of material poverty?
I mentioned levels as levels. By kinds, I meant different kinds.
There is the poverty of inner-city slums and the poverty of agrarian countryside; the poverty of a remote mountain village and the poverty of an industrial ghost-town; the poverty of a refugee camp in Yemen and the poverty of homelessness in Los Angeles. All of these people are materially deprived compared to other segments of society, but their living conditions, surroundings and learning opportunities are very different.
I think a general knowledge it means deprivation of some needed for one's life and well being just about covers it.
Okay. What is needed for life and well-being?

The intent of the thread is to examine the effects of poverty upon the individual, taken further you are into the conflict of nations.
I didn't mention conflict, just competition for material goods.
But you can leave out the other nations. Everything I said about individuals in the North American urban setting still holds. I focused on children, because you listed 'maturation' and 'intellectual development'.
However, a child growing up literally 'dirt poor' (landless) in a log cabin on the edge of a farming village has a very different experience, and probably a better chance of growing up physically, emotionally and socially healthy, even though naive and ignorant, while the city child might be exposed to more disease and trauma, but have access to better public education and libraries and pick up 'street-smarts'. One growing up in a refugee camp or outre religious cult, however, will almost certainly be stunted in body, mind and spirit.
popeye1945
Posts: 586
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Alias,
I mentioned levels as levels. By kinds, I meant different kinds.

There is the poverty of inner-city slums and the poverty of agrarian countryside; the poverty of a remote mountain village and the poverty of an industrial ghost-town; the poverty of a refugee camp in Yemen and the poverty of homelessness in Los Angeles. All of these people are materially deprived compared to other segments of society, but their living conditions, surroundings and learning opportunities are very different. Quote

There are differences alright, in any give society where there is a rather all inclusive poverty, it does not seem as harsh and as spiritually damaging as when the individual suffers relative poverty, poor in relation to his fellow citizens. I have known people who come from very poor villages. They were all poor and seemed not really greatly damaged by the experience, and much more aware of opportunities that might subsequently arise. These people might suffer from intellectual poverty but spiritually they were intact, and very much able to enjoy that life they now have.


'What is needed for life and well-being? Quote

Much of the time it depends upon the context, but there is the basic need for shelter and nourishment. Some social situtations ask little more than these basic necessities, but they have emotional security among themselves and are not subjected to relative poverty. If poverty makes one stand out in the group there is going to be a price extracted from that individual by the people in his social context, and spiritually he/she will suffer. In this same context, one could suffer a poverty of the intellect, but this does seem to do the individual much harm if it is true of his/her context, in which there is no shame not even a wanting.


I didn't mention conflict, just competition for material goods.
But you can leave out the other nations. Everything I said about individuals in the North American urban setting still holds. I focused on children, because you listed 'maturation' and 'intellectual development'.
However, a child growing up literally 'dirt poor' (landless) in a log cabin on the edge of a farming village has a very different experience, and probably a better chance of growing up physically, emotionally and socially healthy, even though naive and ignorant, while the city child might be exposed to more disease and trauma, but have access to better public education and libraries and pick up 'street-smarts'. One growing up in a refugee camp or outre religious cult, however, will almost certainly be stunted in body, mind and spirit.
[/quote]

Competition is just another name for conflict. Yes, I get your above point, often there is little consequence for the lack of what a lot of people consider neccessities, if one stays in the context one is raised in, tragedy and sorrow follow if the context is changed.
Alias
Posts: 3029
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by Alias »

popeye1945
Competition is just another name for conflict.
No, it is not. A foot-race is a competition, but if you start fighting other runners, you're thrown out of the competition. A civil war is conflict, but the two sides are not competing for a prize; they're attempting to impose their ideology on the other side.
It's important to preserve the integrity of words when you're communicating in a text medium.
Yes, I get your above point, often there is little consequence for the lack of what a lot of people consider neccessities,
Where did I say that? There is all kinds of consequence. It's just different in kind.
Besides, the necessities, and who considers what a necessity, have not been identified here.
if one stays in the context one is raised in, tragedy and sorrow follow if the context is changed.
I don't understand this. Can you describe an example?
popeye1945
Posts: 586
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Alias.
Competition is just another name for conflict.[/quote]
No, it is not. A foot-race is a competition, but if you start fighting other runners, you're thrown out of the competition. A civil war is conflict, but the two sides are not competing for a prize; they're attempting to impose their ideology on the other side.
It's important to preserve the integrity of words when you're communicating in a text medium. Quote

Yes competition is organized conflict, the fact that a certain order and decorum are maintained does not change that. You need to rethink that one.

Yes, I get your above point, often there is little consequence for the lack of what a lot of people consider neccessities,
Where did I say that? There is all kinds of consequence. It's just different in kind.
Besides, the necessities, and who considers what a necessity, have not been identified here. Quote

I was just referring to the fact that somepeople consider luxury items to be necessities, there is a difference between needs and that which gives us pleasure and comfort.
if one stays in the context one is raised in, tragedy and sorrow follow if the context is changed.
I don't understand this. Can you describe an example?
[/quote]

Yes I could give you an example. When I was younger I spent time in the high Arctic, and traditionally the young by the time they were seven or eight years old, would have all the skills their lifestyle demanded, so as long as they stayed in that context of living off the land they were perfectly adapted, these same people in the white man's society would be perfectly helpless.
Alias
Posts: 3029
Joined: November 26th, 2011, 8:10 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Terry Pratchett

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by Alias »

popeye1945 wrote: May 8th, 2021, 7:28 pm Yes competition is organized conflict, the fact that a certain order and decorum are maintained does not change that. You need to rethink that one.
Uh-hu.

I was just referring to the fact that somepeople consider luxury items to be necessities, there is a difference between needs and that which gives us pleasure and comfort.
You might have elaborated on that.
Yes I could give you an example. When I was younger I spent time in the high Arctic, and traditionally the young by the time they were seven or eight years old, would have all the skills their lifestyle demanded, so as long as they stayed in that context of living off the land they were perfectly adapted, these same people in the white man's society would be perfectly helpless.
And, of course, vice versa, as shown by the difference in survival-rate between Arctic explorers who accepted help from the natives and the ones who thought their way was the superior way.
And you could extrapolate a lot more from that, if you wanted to pursue the subject.
popeye1945
Posts: 586
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: The many kinds of poverty and there effect on the person

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Alias,
Yes, the arrogance of early explorers was mind-blowing and they paid the price for their arrogance. Extrapolate, thanks for the heads up, yes, all these forms of poverty and adaptability are always relative to a given environment, and in these environments, there are the basic needs to sustain life and then what would be needed to flourish. In many situations in modern society, parenting is very near criminal, the function of parents is to prepare the young to survive and flourish in the greater society, but one can only give one's children what one has gained for one's self, or if one is in possession of this insight, one's could bring in outside help and incourage mentors for the child. All of course relative to the environmental context.
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021