To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Discuss morality and ethics in this message board.
Featured Article: Philosophical Analysis of Abortion, The Right to Life, and Murder
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am

I wouldn't fret about it too much. Just pay your health insurance premiums. I assume you are young and in good health. There is a possibility that you already had Covid (without realizing it) and are as immune as a vaccinated person.
I am pretty sure I had COVID-19 early last year although I wasn't a confirmed case. It was tough at some points but it never reached the point where they say you need to go to a hospital although it might have been a good idea as I am pretty sure I was low in oxygenation but I didn't pant for my breath. The shortness of breath continued a little bit for months as I noticed while exercising but now I don't notice it as much anymore.

Having had the early COVID-19 offers little protection against the new variants, and so I may get it again and self isolating 2 weeks isn't fun.
LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am There is a possibility that you will never get Covid even if you are vulnerable. There is the highest statistical probability that you will actually get Covid but not need to be hospitalized. Of course you could die from it too and depending on your age that risk can be calculated, but it is clearly a minority risk.
Russian roulette is also clearly a minority risk: only one bullet among the 6 chambers. Covid has one, two or three bullets per 100 chambers. Still pretty scary. From what I have been reading, it is more likely that few people will never get it as it becomes endemic like the flu, a disease that I believe nearly everyone end up getting at some point.

Also, the peer pressure to get vaccinated is intense here, and I think it would be a good idea to return it transformed into vegan peer pressure. That just sounds like a great idea.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 25th, 2021, 10:23 am
LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am

I wouldn't fret about it too much. Just pay your health insurance premiums. I assume you are young and in good health. There is a possibility that you already had Covid (without realizing it) and are as immune as a vaccinated person.
I am pretty sure I had COVID-19 early last year although I wasn't a confirmed case. It was tough at some points but it never reached the point where they say you need to go to a hospital although it might have been a good idea as I am pretty sure I was low in oxygenation but I didn't pant for my breath. The shortness of breath continued a little bit for months as I noticed while exercising but now I don't notice it as much anymore.

Having had the early COVID-19 offers little protection against the new variants, and so I may get it again and self isolating 2 weeks isn't fun.
LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am There is a possibility that you will never get Covid even if you are vulnerable. There is the highest statistical probability that you will actually get Covid but not need to be hospitalized. Of course you could die from it too and depending on your age that risk can be calculated, but it is clearly a minority risk.
Russian roulette is also clearly a minority risk: only one bullet among the 6 chambers. Covid has one, two or three bullets per 100 chambers. Still pretty scary. From what I have been reading, it is more likely that few people will never get it as it becomes endemic like the flu, a disease that I believe nearly everyone end up getting at some point.

Also, the peer pressure to get vaccinated is intense here, and I think it would be a good idea to return it transformed into vegan peer pressure. That just sounds like a great idea.
Well, this new (to me) information puts a very different spin on this thread. I agree with you that you very likely had Covid already. Despite your unproven (and unvalidated) concern, you are likely as immune as if you had been vaccinated and thus have next to nothing to gain from a vaccine at this point. So you can enjoy your immune status and keep your vegan conscience clear. Win, win. Congrats.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:02 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 25th, 2021, 10:23 am
LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am

I wouldn't fret about it too much. Just pay your health insurance premiums. I assume you are young and in good health. There is a possibility that you already had Covid (without realizing it) and are as immune as a vaccinated person.
I am pretty sure I had COVID-19 early last year although I wasn't a confirmed case. It was tough at some points but it never reached the point where they say you need to go to a hospital although it might have been a good idea as I am pretty sure I was low in oxygenation but I didn't pant for my breath. The shortness of breath continued a little bit for months as I noticed while exercising but now I don't notice it as much anymore.

Having had the early COVID-19 offers little protection against the new variants, and so I may get it again and self isolating 2 weeks isn't fun.
LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am There is a possibility that you will never get Covid even if you are vulnerable. There is the highest statistical probability that you will actually get Covid but not need to be hospitalized. Of course you could die from it too and depending on your age that risk can be calculated, but it is clearly a minority risk.
Russian roulette is also clearly a minority risk: only one bullet among the 6 chambers. Covid has one, two or three bullets per 100 chambers. Still pretty scary. From what I have been reading, it is more likely that few people will never get it as it becomes endemic like the flu, a disease that I believe nearly everyone end up getting at some point.

Also, the peer pressure to get vaccinated is intense here, and I think it would be a good idea to return it transformed into vegan peer pressure. That just sounds like a great idea.
Well, this new (to me) information puts a very different spin on this thread. I agree with you that you very likely had Covid already. Despite your unproven (and unvalidated) concern, you are likely as immune as if you had been vaccinated and thus have next to nothing to gain from a vaccine at this point. So you can enjoy your immune status and keep your vegan conscience clear. Win, win. Congrats.
You can't say that. If you had COVID early on, you would have hosted one of the early variants. This means two things; one is that you may not have protection against subsequent variants and even, two, if you have your immunity may not last as long as you might like.
Even for the double jabbed we are expecting to be offered booster shots before the oncoming winter which might have a new set of horrors with possibly new vaccine avoiding variants, and new waves of infections.
So yes you very much do have much to gain from vaccinations.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:47 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:02 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 25th, 2021, 10:23 am
LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am

I wouldn't fret about it too much. Just pay your health insurance premiums. I assume you are young and in good health. There is a possibility that you already had Covid (without realizing it) and are as immune as a vaccinated person.
I am pretty sure I had COVID-19 early last year although I wasn't a confirmed case. It was tough at some points but it never reached the point where they say you need to go to a hospital although it might have been a good idea as I am pretty sure I was low in oxygenation but I didn't pant for my breath. The shortness of breath continued a little bit for months as I noticed while exercising but now I don't notice it as much anymore.

Having had the early COVID-19 offers little protection against the new variants, and so I may get it again and self isolating 2 weeks isn't fun.
LuckyR wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:53 am There is a possibility that you will never get Covid even if you are vulnerable. There is the highest statistical probability that you will actually get Covid but not need to be hospitalized. Of course you could die from it too and depending on your age that risk can be calculated, but it is clearly a minority risk.
Russian roulette is also clearly a minority risk: only one bullet among the 6 chambers. Covid has one, two or three bullets per 100 chambers. Still pretty scary. From what I have been reading, it is more likely that few people will never get it as it becomes endemic like the flu, a disease that I believe nearly everyone end up getting at some point.

Also, the peer pressure to get vaccinated is intense here, and I think it would be a good idea to return it transformed into vegan peer pressure. That just sounds like a great idea.
Well, this new (to me) information puts a very different spin on this thread. I agree with you that you very likely had Covid already. Despite your unproven (and unvalidated) concern, you are likely as immune as if you had been vaccinated and thus have next to nothing to gain from a vaccine at this point. So you can enjoy your immune status and keep your vegan conscience clear. Win, win. Congrats.
You can't say that. If you had COVID early on, you would have hosted one of the early variants. This means two things; one is that you may not have protection against subsequent variants and even, two, if you have your immunity may not last as long as you might like.
Even for the double jabbed we are expecting to be offered booster shots before the oncoming winter which might have a new set of horrors with possibly new vaccine avoiding variants, and new waves of infections.
So yes you very much do have much to gain from vaccinations.
Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 5:20 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:47 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:02 pm
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 25th, 2021, 10:23 am

I am pretty sure I had COVID-19 early last year although I wasn't a confirmed case. It was tough at some points but it never reached the point where they say you need to go to a hospital although it might have been a good idea as I am pretty sure I was low in oxygenation but I didn't pant for my breath. The shortness of breath continued a little bit for months as I noticed while exercising but now I don't notice it as much anymore.

Having had the early COVID-19 offers little protection against the new variants, and so I may get it again and self isolating 2 weeks isn't fun.



Russian roulette is also clearly a minority risk: only one bullet among the 6 chambers. Covid has one, two or three bullets per 100 chambers. Still pretty scary. From what I have been reading, it is more likely that few people will never get it as it becomes endemic like the flu, a disease that I believe nearly everyone end up getting at some point.

Also, the peer pressure to get vaccinated is intense here, and I think it would be a good idea to return it transformed into vegan peer pressure. That just sounds like a great idea.
Well, this new (to me) information puts a very different spin on this thread. I agree with you that you very likely had Covid already. Despite your unproven (and unvalidated) concern, you are likely as immune as if you had been vaccinated and thus have next to nothing to gain from a vaccine at this point. So you can enjoy your immune status and keep your vegan conscience clear. Win, win. Congrats.
You can't say that. If you had COVID early on, you would have hosted one of the early variants. This means two things; one is that you may not have protection against subsequent variants and even, two, if you have your immunity may not last as long as you might like.
Even for the double jabbed we are expecting to be offered booster shots before the oncoming winter which might have a new set of horrors with possibly new vaccine avoiding variants, and new waves of infections.
So yes you very much do have much to gain from vaccinations.
Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 6:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 5:20 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:47 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:02 pm

Well, this new (to me) information puts a very different spin on this thread. I agree with you that you very likely had Covid already. Despite your unproven (and unvalidated) concern, you are likely as immune as if you had been vaccinated and thus have next to nothing to gain from a vaccine at this point. So you can enjoy your immune status and keep your vegan conscience clear. Win, win. Congrats.
You can't say that. If you had COVID early on, you would have hosted one of the early variants. This means two things; one is that you may not have protection against subsequent variants and even, two, if you have your immunity may not last as long as you might like.
Even for the double jabbed we are expecting to be offered booster shots before the oncoming winter which might have a new set of horrors with possibly new vaccine avoiding variants, and new waves of infections.
So yes you very much do have much to gain from vaccinations.
Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
Part of the problem is the use of the term "immune" in a clinical vs a lay context. Let's stop using "immune" (which some assume implies 100% immunity). Let's use "protection" instead.

Before the pandemic no one had any protection. Folks who got infected with Covid have measurable antibody levels which provide "protection" against future Covid infection. This is documented.

The vaccine also provides "protection". A popular number is 93%.

Is it a good idea to get vaccinated even if you have been infected? Sure, we're in agreement there. However, we're talking to a vegan who is freaking out about supposed animal testing. I was speaking on the margins to an audience of one (not giving general advice). Though I stand by the concepts I cited.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

LuckyR wrote: July 26th, 2021, 12:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 6:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 5:20 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:47 pm

You can't say that. If you had COVID early on, you would have hosted one of the early variants. This means two things; one is that you may not have protection against subsequent variants and even, two, if you have your immunity may not last as long as you might like.
Even for the double jabbed we are expecting to be offered booster shots before the oncoming winter which might have a new set of horrors with possibly new vaccine avoiding variants, and new waves of infections.
So yes you very much do have much to gain from vaccinations.
Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
Part of the problem is the use of the term "immune" in a clinical vs a lay context. Let's stop using "immune" (which some assume implies 100% immunity). Let's use "protection" instead.

Before the pandemic no one had any protection. Folks who got infected with Covid have measurable antibody levels which provide "protection" against future Covid infection. This is documented.

The vaccine also provides "protection". A popular number is 93%.

Is it a good idea to get vaccinated even if you have been infected? Sure, we're in agreement there. However, we're talking to a vegan who is freaking out about supposed animal testing. I was speaking on the margins to an audience of one (not giving general advice). Though I stand by the concepts I cited.
Okay. So even before COVID-19 some people have viable protection. The Corona virus is of the same type as the common cold and many people have been infected and had no disernable symtoms, having some degree of natural "protection" (or immunity). Having had the infection, whatever the result protection is increased, and the result is anitbodies.
So yes if Bruno had covid he will have some protection, taking the vaccine is likley to boost that protection.

Has he offered ANY evidence of "animal testing"? Or is it a general worry about the use of eggs in the manufacture of vaccines?
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 26th, 2021, 4:34 am
LuckyR wrote: July 26th, 2021, 12:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 6:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 5:20 pm

Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
Part of the problem is the use of the term "immune" in a clinical vs a lay context. Let's stop using "immune" (which some assume implies 100% immunity). Let's use "protection" instead.

Before the pandemic no one had any protection. Folks who got infected with Covid have measurable antibody levels which provide "protection" against future Covid infection. This is documented.

The vaccine also provides "protection". A popular number is 93%.

Is it a good idea to get vaccinated even if you have been infected? Sure, we're in agreement there. However, we're talking to a vegan who is freaking out about supposed animal testing. I was speaking on the margins to an audience of one (not giving general advice). Though I stand by the concepts I cited.
Okay. So even before COVID-19 some people have viable protection. The Corona virus is of the same type as the common cold and many people have been infected and had no disernable symtoms, having some degree of natural "protection" (or immunity). Having had the infection, whatever the result protection is increased, and the result is anitbodies.
So yes if Bruno had covid he will have some protection, taking the vaccine is likley to boost that protection.

Has he offered ANY evidence of "animal testing"? Or is it a general worry about the use of eggs in the manufacture of vaccines?
I don't believe his arguments are encumbered by data.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Protagoras wrote: July 19th, 2021, 7:32 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 18th, 2021, 12:28 pm Let's get the world population to about 50% vegans. At that level, we certainly can have further lockdowns that politicians seem to hate so much. And along with that, the reason why we could not achieve herd immunity or stop the virus could no longer remain hidden from/by the media and establishment. As it gets to be known that you need to stop unnecessary animal cruelty in order to have vegans take the vaccine, the evil politicians would want to move quickly to change the laws to facilitate vaccine production of a new COVID-19 vaccine that is entirely vegan. Evil scientists who argue for the necessity of having animal tested products would be run over quickly and I finally could get vegan protection from the disease.

All currently vaccinated subject may jump off a high bridge right now due to feeling bad, regretful and remorseful about using a shameful product of cruelty to defend themselves. As hordes of remorseful people take the jump, the media would notice and discover that the dying rate of vaccinated people is greater than that of their unvaccinated countrrparts. So, even if you have been vaccinated, you can still help the animals. Just make sure to leave a note behind you explaining why you jump. Just kidding here. Be safe and care for no one else but yourself and those like you.

The mass media has done a good job at hiding the true cause and source of the pandemic while attempting to pretend that they have done their work on that point: You can't say it's a Chinese virus anymore because the media has made it politically incorrect to call it that way. So, you now can't tell where the virus is from. How are going to know more about it if you don't know/ don't care where it's from? That question does not get answered because the answer is that science has the knowledge of where the virus comes from but this truth is not profitable to capitalists and other government establishment and so investigations in that regards must be made to fail. We, the public, must not be hammered daily with evidence that meat consumption is unethical and unhealthy. Instead, we have to be constantly reminded that the animal tested vaccine is very effective. Mass media will work hard on that message and obscure the fact that people's support for animal cruelty such as animal testing, is why we have this diease in the first place.

I am ashamed of most of the people populating the world around me right now. A large portion of the people on earth have their independent thinking and reasoning capacity missing. It is plain scary to me. We do live in scary times and it isn't because of the COVID-19 disease, it's because generally people's mind are clearly lacking something critical. Who is to blame for that? Teachers? The media? Billionaires? Politicians? Doctors? Police? A mix of the above? We need a commission to find out. We need to drain the swamp.
You really think your above post is from independent thinking???

This is serious dogmatism and moral crusading here. And it comes from paranoia and insecurity not clear thinking.

I don't approve of animal testing or cruelty to animals in general.
But you seem to think you can paint any non vegan people as deficient.
Newsflash,many animals are cruel heartless pests and predators.

Newsflash 2,its perfectly natural and required to eat meat and use animal products. And you ranting about it ain't gonna change anything,but will expose your comical and nasty thought paranoia.

Have a burger on me.
What is independent thinking?
That seems to me like it is contradictory to the spirit of your post; your opposition must not be principled but flimsy and liberal.



Right, and your response here is serious immoral crusading?

I would not paint as deficient people who don't have a choice over what they eat. Neither do I paint as deficient people who eat non- vegan without ever having given it much thought. I am not sure that deficient would be the right word to paint people who can eat other things but deliberately make the choice that they know will be most cruel on vulnerable others.
I am not sure that deficient is also the right word to describe people who knowingly create the most suffering while trying to portrait themselves as the very most kind toward animals and attack those who truly are compassionate.
Protagoras wrote: July 19th, 2021, 7:32 amNewsflash,many animals are cruel heartless pests and predators
Are you among them?
Protagoras wrote: July 19th, 2021, 7:32 am Newsflash 2,its perfectly natural and required to eat meat and use animal products.
I must respectfully disagree with your opinion here but one thing we may have in common is that we probably don't think we'll be able to convince the other of our own views.

Describing vegans as nasty when they stand up against cruelty is very comical. Ha! Ha!

The one thing I like about your post is the reference to paranoia. No one before ever characterized my writings that way, so I had to step back and ponder a bit about that, and I can see how I might be perceived that way by someone who can't see what's really going on and who doesn't want to see it. That's an eye opener for me and thank you for that.

I will have a vegan burger on you when you tell me, and make me believe that you are going vegan because of me.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Sculptor1 wrote: July 26th, 2021, 4:34 am
LuckyR wrote: July 26th, 2021, 12:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 6:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 5:20 pm

Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
Part of the problem is the use of the term "immune" in a clinical vs a lay context. Let's stop using "immune" (which some assume implies 100% immunity). Let's use "protection" instead.

Before the pandemic no one had any protection. Folks who got infected with Covid have measurable antibody levels which provide "protection" against future Covid infection. This is documented.

The vaccine also provides "protection". A popular number is 93%.

Is it a good idea to get vaccinated even if you have been infected? Sure, we're in agreement there. However, we're talking to a vegan who is freaking out about supposed animal testing. I was speaking on the margins to an audience of one (not giving general advice). Though I stand by the concepts I cited.
Okay. So even before COVID-19 some people have viable protection. The Corona virus is of the same type as the common cold and many people have been infected and had no disernable symtoms, having some degree of natural "protection" (or immunity). Having had the infection, whatever the result protection is increased, and the result is anitbodies.
So yes if Bruno had covid he will have some protection, taking the vaccine is likley to boost that protection.

Has he offered ANY evidence of "animal testing"? Or is it a general worry about the use of eggs in the manufacture of vaccines?
Is this what you are looking for and claim to be unaware of?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01894-z
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

LuckyR wrote: July 26th, 2021, 12:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 6:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 5:20 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 2:47 pm

You can't say that. If you had COVID early on, you would have hosted one of the early variants. This means two things; one is that you may not have protection against subsequent variants and even, two, if you have your immunity may not last as long as you might like.
Even for the double jabbed we are expecting to be offered booster shots before the oncoming winter which might have a new set of horrors with possibly new vaccine avoiding variants, and new waves of infections.
So yes you very much do have much to gain from vaccinations.
Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
Part of the problem is the use of the term "immune" in a clinical vs a lay context. Let's stop using "immune" (which some assume implies 100% immunity). Let's use "protection" instead.

Before the pandemic no one had any protection. Folks who got infected with Covid have measurable antibody levels which provide "protection" against future Covid infection. This is documented.

The vaccine also provides "protection". A popular number is 93%.

Is it a good idea to get vaccinated even if you have been infected? Sure, we're in agreement there. However, we're talking to a vegan who is freaking out about supposed animal testing. I was speaking on the margins to an audience of one (not giving general advice). Though I stand by the concepts I cited.
I am freaking out about more than just animal testing. There are a plethora of reasons which turn me upside down. Yes, animal testing is certainly part of the equation, but the sheer number of pseudo vegans who think they can have this vaccine is what's really bewildering me. It's like realizing a person you thought you knew is a complete other person, and the name you knew them by isn't their real name. Then you find this out about the majority of what you thought were your friends.

I mean, I am solid, I can live through this and I can see some positive coming out of this. I also appreciate your motherly feelings in trying to provide me with comfort. You miss the point though in attempting to make me feel like a winner because I have some degree of protection against COVID-19: it makes the risk I take by not having the vaccine less of a fearless action for the animals than it is. I can't tell other vegans to do as I do because if they haven't had COVID-19 already, they now face more terrible variants without any protection, and I am not sure if I would want them to risk their lives for this as I would risk losing my friend, but then again, animals are my friends and now is the time to step up for them. If a friend of mine dies a hero for the animals, I hate to say this but like a Klingon warrior who loses a fellow Klingon buddy on the battlefield, I would likely think that this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

A bad thing is coming across as a fake when the going gets tough. And so things are quite bad here at the moment. As another noted, it also makes me a bit more paranoid about my fellow human beings, and this may be a good thing.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 31st, 2021, 8:24 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 26th, 2021, 12:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 6:15 pm
LuckyR wrote: July 25th, 2021, 5:20 pm

Where do you think the vaccine makers got the template to make their vaccines? Not from late variants. They started working immediately, ie from the wild type, the original virus. So your musings may sound interesting but are not borne out by what actually happened.

While it is likely that immunity from infection and vaccines are probably temporary, that is a discussion for another year (when there is reliable data). Right now the differences, if they exist at all, are not be well appreciated.
Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
Part of the problem is the use of the term "immune" in a clinical vs a lay context. Let's stop using "immune" (which some assume implies 100% immunity). Let's use "protection" instead.

Before the pandemic no one had any protection. Folks who got infected with Covid have measurable antibody levels which provide "protection" against future Covid infection. This is documented.

The vaccine also provides "protection". A popular number is 93%.

Is it a good idea to get vaccinated even if you have been infected? Sure, we're in agreement there. However, we're talking to a vegan who is freaking out about supposed animal testing. I was speaking on the margins to an audience of one (not giving general advice). Though I stand by the concepts I cited.
I am freaking out about more than just animal testing. There are a plethora of reasons which turn me upside down. Yes, animal testing is certainly part of the equation, but the sheer number of pseudo vegans who think they can have this vaccine is what's really bewildering me. It's like realizing a person you thought you knew is a complete other person, and the name you knew them by isn't their real name. Then you find this out about the majority of what you thought were your friends.

I mean, I am solid, I can live through this and I can see some positive coming out of this. I also appreciate your motherly feelings in trying to provide me with comfort. You miss the point though in attempting to make me feel like a winner because I have some degree of protection against COVID-19: it makes the risk I take by not having the vaccine less of a fearless action for the animals than it is. I can't tell other vegans to do as I do because if they haven't had COVID-19 already, they now face more terrible variants without any protection, and I am not sure if I would want them to risk their lives for this as I would risk losing my friend, but then again, animals are my friends and now is the time to step up for them. If a friend of mine dies a hero for the animals, I hate to say this but like a Klingon warrior who loses a fellow Klingon buddy on the battlefield, I would likely think that this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

A bad thing is coming across as a fake when the going gets tough. And so things are quite bad here at the moment. As another noted, it also makes me a bit more paranoid about my fellow human beings, and this may be a good thing.
Well, I guess I would encourage you to view the universe of human behavior more as a series of spectrums (different shades of gray), rather than meeting or missing a series of criteria (black vs white).

Basically, while you are definitely entitled to prioritize various issues, so does everyone else and IMO it is unreasonable to expect these priorities to coincide exactly.

At its most basic, in order to determine if something is abnormal, one should have a firm grasp on what is normal. For example it is normal for animals and plants to be eaten. I'm not saying you should eat animals, just acknowledging that animals have been eaten routinely on this planet long before there were humans.
"As usual... it depends."
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 7091
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: July 31st, 2021, 6:46 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: July 26th, 2021, 4:34 am
LuckyR wrote: July 26th, 2021, 12:52 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 25th, 2021, 6:15 pm

Hello?
You are claiming that after an infection you could be immune. I am saying that is not the case,. The likelihood is that the vaccine is already a bit worn out. I just don't think you are reading me.
The vaccine as it is is all we have and it has some protection, but there is not reason to think that an old infection is going to be any better .
The fact that an old infection might be as good as one jab, it's probably better to be vaccinated in any sense, since it still have proven efficacy despite the variants.
Part of the problem is the use of the term "immune" in a clinical vs a lay context. Let's stop using "immune" (which some assume implies 100% immunity). Let's use "protection" instead.

Before the pandemic no one had any protection. Folks who got infected with Covid have measurable antibody levels which provide "protection" against future Covid infection. This is documented.

The vaccine also provides "protection". A popular number is 93%.

Is it a good idea to get vaccinated even if you have been infected? Sure, we're in agreement there. However, we're talking to a vegan who is freaking out about supposed animal testing. I was speaking on the margins to an audience of one (not giving general advice). Though I stand by the concepts I cited.
Okay. So even before COVID-19 some people have viable protection. The Corona virus is of the same type as the common cold and many people have been infected and had no disernable symtoms, having some degree of natural "protection" (or immunity). Having had the infection, whatever the result protection is increased, and the result is anitbodies.
So yes if Bruno had covid he will have some protection, taking the vaccine is likley to boost that protection.

Has he offered ANY evidence of "animal testing"? Or is it a general worry about the use of eggs in the manufacture of vaccines?
Is this what you are looking for and claim to be unaware of?
nature /articles
So what is your objection exactly?
No one is eating the monkeys
User avatar
Empiricist-Bruno
Moderator
Posts: 582
Joined: July 15th, 2014, 1:52 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Berkeley
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

LuckyR wrote: August 1st, 2021, 2:04 am
At its most basic, in order to determine if something is abnormal, one should have a firm grasp on what is normal. For example it is normal for animals and plants to be eaten. I'm not saying you should eat animals, just acknowledging that animals have been eaten routinely on this planet long before there were humans.
Well, from my perspective, I don't think I may have a better grasp on what is normal than anyone else. However, I find myself unswept by sweeping statements, such as the one you make above. You know, lions lick their balls and it is normal for them to do so why don't I try it?

As a vegan, I am not that concerned about meat consumption and even even about animal use, to some degree. For instance, as a vegan, I am supposed to stay away from honey. But honey is the spit of the bees onto the nectar they collect from plants. It's not an animal product like eggs or milk and so eating honey sounds vegan enough to me although it's a misdirection of the product. Still, I stay away from honey as a show of support for those other vegans who think vegans should not have honey. Scavenged meat is also not something I would criticize anyone for eating although I do believe that to be second rate food for human beings based on my own study of scientific facts about nutrition.

Showing a lack of compassion toward animals is linked to so many ills that I believe you literally have to be out of your mind not to want to feed of plants uniquely. So, I feel that a real civilized discussion with other people can only start after the right diet is agreed upon. But it's true that I don't need to be on the same plane with everyone. Communication with animals is rarely easy but it's also normal, and I can enjoy it.
Watch out for the hidden paradoxes around you!
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7932
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: To all the vegans who get their covid 19 vaccines

Post by LuckyR »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 8:05 pm
LuckyR wrote: August 1st, 2021, 2:04 am
At its most basic, in order to determine if something is abnormal, one should have a firm grasp on what is normal. For example it is normal for animals and plants to be eaten. I'm not saying you should eat animals, just acknowledging that animals have been eaten routinely on this planet long before there were humans.
Well, from my perspective, I don't think I may have a better grasp on what is normal than anyone else. However, I find myself unswept by sweeping statements, such as the one you make above. You know, lions lick their balls and it is normal for them to do so why don't I try it?

As a vegan, I am not that concerned about meat consumption and even even about animal use, to some degree. For instance, as a vegan, I am supposed to stay away from honey. But honey is the spit of the bees onto the nectar they collect from plants. It's not an animal product like eggs or milk and so eating honey sounds vegan enough to me although it's a misdirection of the product. Still, I stay away from honey as a show of support for those other vegans who think vegans should not have honey. Scavenged meat is also not something I would criticize anyone for eating although I do believe that to be second rate food for human beings based on my own study of scientific facts about nutrition.

Showing a lack of compassion toward animals is linked to so many ills that I believe you literally have to be out of your mind not to want to feed of plants uniquely. So, I feel that a real civilized discussion with other people can only start after the right diet is agreed upon. But it's true that I don't need to be on the same plane with everyone. Communication with animals is rarely easy but it's also normal, and I can enjoy it.
I completely agree with you about compassion for animals. That's why I avoid dairy sourced from industrial farming as a high priority. I also am willing to pay extra for nonindustrially ranched meat. I also tend to avoid game (wild animals). In other words I focus more on process than content.
"As usual... it depends."
Post Reply

Return to “Ethics and Morality”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021