Lying for Altruism

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AverageBozo
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by AverageBozo »

Steve3007 wrote: November 24th, 2021, 7:46 am
AverageBozo wrote:My wife put one over on the used car salesman who was buying her car. When he asked her if the car burned much, she answered that it didn’t. What she omitted to tell him was that the car leaked oil so badly that there was never any burning.
So it leaked oil so quickly that there was none left to burn? Jeez. Still, when buying and selling cars I guess it's caveat emptor. I traded in my car recently and told the salesman that the front brake discs and pads both needed urgently changing (because I didn't want to be responsible for anyone getting killed) but omitted to tell him that it spontaneously jumps out of 4th gear. I don't think that'll kill anyone. Just surprise them. That's my car selling ethical code. Try not to kill anyone.
:)
AverageBozo
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by AverageBozo »

Belindi wrote: November 24th, 2021, 7:27 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am
AverageBozo wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:09 pm
LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 2:10 am

I am not saying you are correct, but if you are then anything not 100% truthful would be a form of lying. In that situation, since the vast majority of folks I converse with don't deserve my 100% truth, lying would not necessarily be a negative, it would be a form of doing business.
Yes, that is true. Lying is considered a necessary social skill in New York. It is, in fact, not necessarily evil.

Anything not 100% truthful would be a lie if its intent is to deceive. Withholding information is only a lie if the intent is to deceive.
But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
It's deceit when when the person who is widely expected to inform as a duty and can do so fails to do so. E.g parents, MPs, doctors, priests, teachers, newspaper columnists, historians, news reporters.

A reputation for honesty (see above professions) has a commercial value, and anyone who trades on their honesty and fails to deliver honesty is a thief.
Yes. Parents, btw, might be deceitful intentionally or not, but the rest of those listed are presumably too intelligent to be deceitful without intent.
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by Pattern-chaser »

LuckyR wrote: November 22nd, 2021, 1:50 pm Is there an ethical difference between telling an untruth and lying by omission (which does not technically include telling an untruth)?
Yes ... but perhaps not in all circumstances. In general, yes. All IMO, of course. 🙂
Pattern-chaser

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by Pattern-chaser »

AverageBozo wrote: November 22nd, 2021, 2:31 pm PC’s various suggested replies, while practical, are actually untruths in the sense that they are intended to deflect for the sake of misleading someone.
I don't recognise that in my memory of what I wrote. Can you give an example of an untruth I wrote, or of something I wrote that is intended to mislead?
Pattern-chaser

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AverageBozo
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by AverageBozo »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 21st, 2021, 10:10 am In my view, there is always a way to tell the truth, in part at least. In the case of your cake example, the adult should've fixed the over-sufficiency of cinnamon at the time, so that the little one's cake would taste good at the end. The need to lie should never have occurred.

Your murderer example is different, in that we assume (?) that the murderer will murder you if you don't tell him where your friend is, so that comes down to: will you give up your own life for your friend? A difficult decision for any of us. And we can add to this that lying under duress is not lying, in the view of many people.

Lying is avoidable, unproductive and unnecessary, IMO.
Lying is unnecessary and avoidable but may be productive. I gather that you are saying that the parent, the murderer or anyone else can make a truthful statement to avoid lying. I suppose they can, but when the murderer asks where my friend is, and I answer that I don’t want to tell him, I am hiding something. When a truthful but deflecting statement is intentionally made, it is a lie.
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Steve3007
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by Steve3007 »

AverageBozo wrote:...When a truthful but deflecting statement is intentionally made, it is a lie.
You could say that if you equate lying with being disingenuous.
Even men with steel hearts love to see a dog on the pitch.
Ecurb
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by Ecurb »

Am I the only one who thinks that the kid in "To Think That I Saw it on Mulberry Street" (now banned for making fun of the Chinese) should have told his dad one of the fanciful versions of what he saw? What harm would it do?
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LuckyR
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: November 24th, 2021, 7:27 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am
AverageBozo wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:09 pm
LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 2:10 am

I am not saying you are correct, but if you are then anything not 100% truthful would be a form of lying. In that situation, since the vast majority of folks I converse with don't deserve my 100% truth, lying would not necessarily be a negative, it would be a form of doing business.
Yes, that is true. Lying is considered a necessary social skill in New York. It is, in fact, not necessarily evil.

Anything not 100% truthful would be a lie if its intent is to deceive. Withholding information is only a lie if the intent is to deceive.
But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
It's deceit when when the person who is widely expected to inform as a duty and can do so fails to do so. E.g parents, MPs, doctors, priests, teachers, newspaper columnists, historians, news reporters.

A reputation for honesty (see above professions) has a commercial value, and anyone who trades on their honesty and fails to deliver honesty is a thief.
Exactly. So when there isn't an expectation to inform as a duty, it isn't deceptive to omit sought after information.
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by LuckyR »

AverageBozo wrote: November 24th, 2021, 9:03 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am
AverageBozo wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:09 pm
LuckyR wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 2:10 am

I am not saying you are correct, but if you are then anything not 100% truthful would be a form of lying. In that situation, since the vast majority of folks I converse with don't deserve my 100% truth, lying would not necessarily be a negative, it would be a form of doing business.
Yes, that is true. Lying is considered a necessary social skill in New York. It is, in fact, not necessarily evil.

Anything not 100% truthful would be a lie if its intent is to deceive. Withholding information is only a lie if the intent is to deceive.
But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
Yea, if asked a direct question I withhold information that would directly answer the question, that is usually intentional. However, there are some who unintentionally are not intelligent enough to properly answer a question. I would call that ignorance rather than deceit.
Really? So here's my question to you, what is your PayPal username and password?
"As usual... it depends."
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LuckyR
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: November 24th, 2021, 10:17 am
LuckyR wrote: November 22nd, 2021, 1:50 pm Is there an ethical difference between telling an untruth and lying by omission (which does not technically include telling an untruth)?
Yes ... but perhaps not in all circumstances. In general, yes. All IMO, of course. 🙂
I agree, there is a difference between telling untruths which is lying and "lying" by omission, which can be deceitful (which isn't the case in the vast majority of cases), or a completely reasonable and common form of communication.
"As usual... it depends."
AverageBozo
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by AverageBozo »

LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:35 pm
AverageBozo wrote: November 24th, 2021, 9:03 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am
AverageBozo wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:09 pm

Yes, that is true. Lying is considered a necessary social skill in New York. It is, in fact, not necessarily evil.

Anything not 100% truthful would be a lie if its intent is to deceive. Withholding information is only a lie if the intent is to deceive.
But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
Yea, if asked a direct question I withhold information that would directly answer the question, that is usually intentional. However, there are some who unintentionally are not intelligent enough to properly answer a question. I would call that ignorance rather than deceit.
Really? So here's my question to you, what is your PayPal username and password?
commnsense and xxxxxxxx
AverageBozo
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by AverageBozo »

LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:35 pm
AverageBozo wrote: November 24th, 2021, 9:03 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am
AverageBozo wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:09 pm

Yes, that is true. Lying is considered a necessary social skill in New York. It is, in fact, not necessarily evil.

Anything not 100% truthful would be a lie if its intent is to deceive. Withholding information is only a lie if the intent is to deceive.
But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
Yea, if asked a direct question I withhold information that would directly answer the question, that is usually intentional. However, there are some who unintentionally are not intelligent enough to properly answer a question. I would call that ignorance rather than deceit.
Really? So here's my question to you, what is your PayPal username and password?
I don’t know what they are.
AverageBozo
Posts: 312
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by AverageBozo »

LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:35 pm
AverageBozo wrote: November 24th, 2021, 9:03 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am
AverageBozo wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:09 pm

Yes, that is true. Lying is considered a necessary social skill in New York. It is, in fact, not necessarily evil.

Anything not 100% truthful would be a lie if its intent is to deceive. Withholding information is only a lie if the intent is to deceive.
But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
Yea, if asked a direct question I withhold information that would directly answer the question, that is usually intentional. However, there are some who unintentionally are not intelligent enough to properly answer a question. I would call that ignorance rather than deceit.
Really? So here's my question to you, what is your PayPal username and password?
Did you know that the idea for PayPal came from William Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar” in the original Latin?
AverageBozo
Posts: 312
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by AverageBozo »

LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:32 pm
Belindi wrote: November 24th, 2021, 7:27 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am
AverageBozo wrote: November 23rd, 2021, 3:09 pm

Yes, that is true. Lying is considered a necessary social skill in New York. It is, in fact, not necessarily evil.

Anything not 100% truthful would be a lie if its intent is to deceive. Withholding information is only a lie if the intent is to deceive.
But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
It's deceit when when the person who is widely expected to inform as a duty and can do so fails to do so. E.g parents, MPs, doctors, priests, teachers, newspaper columnists, historians, news reporters.

A reputation for honesty (see above professions) has a commercial value, and anyone who trades on their honesty and fails to deliver honesty is a thief.
Exactly. So when there isn't an expectation to inform as a duty, it isn't deceptive to omit sought after information.
I disagree inasmuch as one can be deceptive when there is neither expectation nor duty to inform. I may have no duty to provide information but if I choose to make something up or to give false information, then I am lying and being deceitful. Duty is neither necessary nor sufficient in making a falsehood intentionally or otherwise.
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LuckyR
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Re: Lying for Altruism

Post by LuckyR »

AverageBozo wrote: November 24th, 2021, 7:53 pm
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:35 pm
AverageBozo wrote: November 24th, 2021, 9:03 am
LuckyR wrote: November 24th, 2021, 2:48 am

But is not giving information that another seeks, deceit?
Yea, if asked a direct question I withhold information that would directly answer the question, that is usually intentional. However, there are some who unintentionally are not intelligent enough to properly answer a question. I would call that ignorance rather than deceit.
Really? So here's my question to you, what is your PayPal username and password?
Did you know that the idea for PayPal came from William Shakespeare’s “Julius Caesar” in the original Latin?
Well, that was a deception, and some would call it a lie, I suppose. Oh dear.
"As usual... it depends."
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