Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

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JDBowden
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Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by JDBowden »

Hola

I am a handful of chapters into reading Ethics by Aristotle. It is the first work I have picked up by him. I was also previously warned about his particular works. At this point, I can see why the warning was warranted.

Is it just me, or is the form of writing horrifically shallow, and nearly incomprehensibly difficult to follow? I just finished a quick chapter where he was ranting about happiness, geometry, and carpenters all within the same page. The thoughts are all over the place within incomplete, nearly run-on sentences with half-filled statements.

Is this how the rest of the book is going to go, and is this how he wrote things down? Or, did I purchase a translated version that should not have been produced in the first place? LOL.

I feel as if I have "some" credibility as to my observations, as I am a language professor. But, what do I know anymore?

jdb
Sunday66
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by Sunday66 »

JDBowden wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 4:20 pm Hola

I am a handful of chapters into reading Ethics by Aristotle. It is the first work I have picked up by him. I was also previously warned about his particular works. At this point, I can see why the warning was warranted.

Is it just me, or is the form of writing horrifically shallow, and nearly incomprehensibly difficult to follow? I just finished a quick chapter where he was ranting about happiness, geometry, and carpenters all within the same page. The thoughts are all over the place within incomplete, nearly run-on sentences with half-filled statements.

Is this how the rest of the book is going to go, and is this how he wrote things down? Or, did I purchase a translated version that should not have been produced in the first place? LOL.

I feel as if I have "some" credibility as to my observations, as I am a language professor. But, what do I know anymore?

jdb
Who is the translator? And no, I had no difficulty reading the entire book.
JDBowden
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by JDBowden »

Aristótles, Ética y Poética from Colección Clásicos Universales

Publishing company Oceano Grupo Editorial out of Spain.
Sunday66
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by Sunday66 »

JDBowden wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 6:29 pm Aristótles, Ética y Poética from Colección Clásicos Universales

Publishing company Oceano Grupo Editorial out of Spain.
Well, I never read Aristotle in Spanish so can't help you out.
JDBowden
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by JDBowden »

Meh.. I suppose I will keep on truckin' with it. Not too long of a book. Just a collection of chapters, only 150 pages or so.
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by Self-Lightening »

I wonder if Sunday66 has understood the book better than JDBowden:

"There are philosophers whom one can at least picture engaging in this practice [i.e., esotericism]. Maimonides, for example, is so open about his esotericism and so obscure in other ways—so generally 'medieval'—that people incline to think that anything is possible with him. But Plato’s writings too are so manifestly playful, poetic, and puzzling that scholars have found it difficult to entirely rule out the possibility of esotericism. Aristotle is altogether different. He seems to be so straight and literal-minded, so intent on avoiding all misunderstanding, so eager to be clear, precise, and methodical at all times—as if writing for a contemporary philosophy journal—that claims of his esotericism seem utterly absurd. Being the hardest case, he is also the test case. One feels that if Aristotle, of all thinkers, was esoteric—well, then anyone can be.
[…]
Prior to the nineteenth century, as I have said, there was incessant talk of Aristotle’s esotericism. Indeed, since ancient times, he was seen, not as the hardest case, but as the classic case. In the second century AD, for example, he was so well-known for his esoteric doubleness that this trait is identified as one of his most distinctive characteristics by the Greek satirist Lucian (117–c. 180 AD). In his comic dialogue The Sale of Lives, Lucian depicts a slave auction of philosophers arranged by Zeus, with Hermes as the auctioneer. We pick up the action after the sale of Pythagoras, Diogenes, Heraclitus, and some others.
ZEUS: Don’t delay; call another, the Peripatetic.
HERMES: . . . Come now, buy the height of intelligence, the one who knows absolutely everything!
BUYER: What is he like?
HERMES: Moderate, gentlemanly, adaptable in his way of living, and, what is more, he is double.
BUYER: What do you mean?
HERMES: Viewed from the outside, he seems to be one man, and from the inside, another; so if you buy him, be sure to call the one self 'exoteric' and the other 'esoteric.'" (Arthur Melzer, Philosophy Between the Lines: The Lost History of Esoteric Writing, pp. 30-31.)

"[A]mong writers in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries—including such confirmed non-Neoplatonists as Pierre Gassendi and Joseph Glanvill—it became something of a standard trope to liken Aristotle to a cuttlefish, for, like the squid, the cuttlefish squirts ink as a defensive measure." (op.cit., page 38.)

"There is no doubt that much of the time, especially on uncontroversial issues, Aristotle is extremely—one might even say ostentatiously—clear and methodical. But here we have one of the biggest of the big questions of life—what will happen to me when I die—and suddenly we see a very different Aristotle. He surrounds the whole issue with a mixture of silence, evasion, and obscurity. This is the cuttlefish in action. This is a clear and simple example of what that very large consensus of commentators and philosophers had in mind in attributing to Aristotle an obvious and intentional obscurity." (op.cit., note to page 43.)
value
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by value »

JDBowden wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 4:20 pm Hola

I am a handful of chapters into reading Ethics by Aristotle. It is the first work I have picked up by him. I was also previously warned about his particular works. At this point, I can see why the warning was warranted.

Is it just me, or is the form of writing horrifically shallow, and nearly incomprehensibly difficult to follow? I just finished a quick chapter where he was ranting about happiness, geometry, and carpenters all within the same page. The thoughts are all over the place within incomplete, nearly run-on sentences with half-filled statements.

Is this how the rest of the book is going to go, and is this how he wrote things down? Or, did I purchase a translated version that should not have been produced in the first place? LOL.

I feel as if I have "some" credibility as to my observations, as I am a language professor. But, what do I know anymore?

jdb
Sometimes it takes some time to see the context. It wouldn't even matter if information is invalid if you would understand why because that could provide valuable insights as well.

Aristotle is considered as 'the first teacher' in many cultures, including in regions such as Arabia. That may have had its reasons.

... from the sixth through the twelfth centuries, although the bulk of Aristotle’s writings were lost to the West, they received extensive consideration in Byzantine Philosophy, and in Arabic Philosophy, where Aristotle was so prominent that be became known simply as The First Teacher

Aristotle's works on Ethics are his most primary works. There are two books however and that means that there are two different ways Aristotle addresses the subject.

Did you consider both Nicomachean Ethics and Eudemian Ethics?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-ethics/

A suggestion would be, in the case that the context is not clear, to just complete a work and lay it aside to return to it again after reading other works on the subject so that it might be more easy to understand the context of the information.

What might help is listening to a podcast on a work. Partially Examined Life has a podcast on most of Aristotle's works.

The podcast Partially Examined Life is an initiative by philosophy professors that provide a 'conversational perspective' that provides both an easy entrance for beginners and a profound insight in the works.

Episode 5: Aristotle’s Nichomachean Ethics
What is virtue, and how can I eat it? Do not enjoy this episode too much, or too little, but just the right amount. Apparently, if you haven't already have been brought up with the right habits, you may as well give up. Plus, is Michael Jackson the Aristotelian ideal?
https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/2009/ ... an-ethics/

The following website provides a search for podcasts: https://www.listennotes.com/
JDBowden
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Location: Chile

Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by JDBowden »

Self-Lightening wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 11:22 pm I wonder if Sunday66 has understood the book better than JDBowden:

"There are philosophers whom one can at least picture engaging in this practice [i.e., esotericism]. Maimonides, for example, is so open about his esotericism and so obscure in other ways—so generally 'medieval'—that people incline to think that anything is possible with him. But Plato’s writings too are so manifestly playful, poetic, and puzzling that scholars have found it difficult to entirely rule out the possibility of esotericism. Aristotle is altogether different. He seems to be so straight and literal-minded, so intent on avoiding all misunderstanding, so eager to be clear, precise, and methodical at all times—as if writing for a contemporary philosophy journal—that claims of his esotericism seem utterly absurd. Being the hardest case, he is also the test case. One feels that if Aristotle, of all thinkers, was esoteric—well, then anyone can be.
[…]
Prior to the nineteenth century, as I have said, there was incessant talk of Aristotle’s esotericism. Indeed, since ancient times, he was seen, not as the hardest case, but as the classic case. In the second century AD, for example, he was so well-known for his esoteric doubleness that this trait is identified as one of his most distinctive characteristics by the Greek satirist Lucian (117–c. 180 AD). In his comic dialogue The Sale of Lives, Lucian depicts a slave auction of philosophers arranged by Zeus, with Hermes as the auctioneer. We pick up the action after the sale of Pythagoras, Diogenes, Heraclitus, and some others.
ZEUS: Don’t delay; call another, the Peripatetic.
HERMES: . . . Come now, buy the height of intelligence, the one who knows absolutely everything!
BUYER: What is he like?
HERMES: Moderate, gentlemanly, adaptable in his way of living, and, what is more, he is double.
BUYER: What do you mean?
HERMES: Viewed from the outside, he seems to be one man, and from the inside, another; so if you buy him, be sure to call the one self 'exoteric' and the other 'esoteric.'" (Arthur Melzer, Philosophy Between the Lines: The Lost History of Esoteric Writing, pp. 30-31.)

"[A]mong writers in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries—including such confirmed non-Neoplatonists as Pierre Gassendi and Joseph Glanvill—it became something of a standard trope to liken Aristotle to a cuttlefish, for, like the squid, the cuttlefish squirts ink as a defensive measure." (op.cit., page 38.)

"There is no doubt that much of the time, especially on uncontroversial issues, Aristotle is extremely—one might even say ostentatiously—clear and methodical. But here we have one of the biggest of the big questions of life—what will happen to me when I die—and suddenly we see a very different Aristotle. He surrounds the whole issue with a mixture of silence, evasion, and obscurity. This is the cuttlefish in action. This is a clear and simple example of what that very large consensus of commentators and philosophers had in mind in attributing to Aristotle an obvious and intentional obscurity." (op.cit., note to page 43.)

What is this?
JDBowden
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Location: Chile

Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by JDBowden »

value wrote: August 4th, 2022, 10:11 am
JDBowden wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 4:20 pm Hola

I am a handful of chapters into reading Ethics by Aristotle. It is the first work I have picked up by him. I was also previously warned about his particular works. At this point, I can see why the warning was warranted.

Is it just me, or is the form of writing horrifically shallow, and nearly incomprehensibly difficult to follow? I just finished a quick chapter where he was ranting about happiness, geometry, and carpenters all within the same page. The thoughts are all over the place within incomplete, nearly run-on sentences with half-filled statements.

Is this how the rest of the book is going to go, and is this how he wrote things down? Or, did I purchase a translated version that should not have been produced in the first place? LOL.

I feel as if I have "some" credibility as to my observations, as I am a language professor. But, what do I know anymore?

jdb
Sometimes it takes some time to see the context. It wouldn't even matter if information is invalid if you would understand why because that could provide valuable insights as well.

Aristotle is considered as 'the first teacher' in many cultures, including in regions such as Arabia. That may have had its reasons.

... from the sixth through the twelfth centuries, although the bulk of Aristotle’s writings were lost to the West, they received extensive consideration in Byzantine Philosophy, and in Arabic Philosophy, where Aristotle was so prominent that be became known simply as The First Teacher

Aristotle's works on Ethics are his most primary works. There are two books however and that means that there are two different ways Aristotle addresses the subject.

Did you consider both Nicomachean Ethics and Eudemian Ethics?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-ethics/

A suggestion would be, in the case that the context is not clear, to just complete a work and lay it aside to return to it again after reading other works on the subject so that it might be more easy to understand the context of the information.

What might help is listening to a podcast on a work. Partially Examined Life has a podcast on most of Aristotle's works.

The podcast Partially Examined Life is an initiative by philosophy professors that provide a 'conversational perspective' that provides both an easy entrance for beginners and a profound insight in the works.

Episode 5: Aristotle’s Nichomachean Ethics
What is virtue, and how can I eat it? Do not enjoy this episode too much, or too little, but just the right amount. Apparently, if you haven't already have been brought up with the right habits, you may as well give up. Plus, is Michael Jackson the Aristotelian ideal?
https://partiallyexaminedlife.com/2009/ ... an-ethics/

The following website provides a search for podcasts: https://www.listennotes.com/
Thank you for the links. I am not familiar with Nicomachean nor Eudemian Ethics at all. I have heard of Nicomachean, but Eudemian is new for me.
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by Self-Lightening »

JDBowden wrote: August 4th, 2022, 2:01 pm
Self-Lightening wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 11:22 pm I wonder if Sunday66 has understood the book better than JDBowden:

[Three quotes from Arthur Melzer, Philosophy Between the Lines: The Lost History of Esoteric Writing.]

What is this?
An at least partial explanation for your difficulties in reading Aristotle. It's from the single book I recommend the most. It should've spread like wildfire, if academia weren't so resistant to wildfire. I mean, did you ever stop to consider that Aristotle wasn't writing in contemporary academia or on a philosophy forum, but in ancient Greece in the aftermath of Socrates' death? And this—the threat of persecution—was only one of the three basic reasons for writing esoterically in premodern times!
Sunday66
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by Sunday66 »

Self-Lightening wrote: August 4th, 2022, 4:44 pm
JDBowden wrote: August 4th, 2022, 2:01 pm
Self-Lightening wrote: August 3rd, 2022, 11:22 pm I wonder if Sunday66 has understood the book better than JDBowden:

[Three quotes from Arthur Melzer, Philosophy Between the Lines: The Lost History of Esoteric Writing.]

What is this?
An at least partial explanation for your difficulties in reading Aristotle. It's from the single book I recommend the most. It should've spread like wildfire, if academia weren't so resistant to wildfire. I mean, did you ever stop to consider that Aristotle wasn't writing in contemporary academia or on a philosophy forum, but in ancient Greece in the aftermath of Socrates' death? And this—the threat of persecution—was only one of the three basic reasons for writing esoterically in premodern times!
What does the esoteric have to do with Aristotle? And he was giving philosophy lectures at his school, the Lyceum.
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by Self-Lightening »

Sunday66 wrote: August 4th, 2022, 8:30 pm What does the esoteric have to do with Aristotle? And he was giving philosophy lectures at his school, the Lyceum.
Did you read the quotes? The word "esoteric" may have misleading connotations for you, though. Consider:

"When, in the letter quoted above, Diderot attributes esotericism to Aristotle, he is imputing to him not a mystical esoteric doctrine but something closer to a materialistic one—disbelief in final causes (something that Hobbes too suspects him of), which, they think, Aristotle has hidden primarily to appease the religious authorities of his time." (op.cit., page 26.)

You can read the appendix to Melzer's book for free. It contains four full pages on Aristotle:

https://press.uchicago.edu/sites/melzer ... pendix.pdf

As for Aristotle's teaching at the Lyceum:

"[V]irtually everyone agrees, based on much other evidence, that Aristotle’s corpus (putting aside the letters, poems, and collections) was indeed divided into two broad categories of writings: a set of earlier, popular works, addressed to a wide audience (the now-lost dialogues and perhaps some other writings) and the more exacting, strictly philosophical works, addressed to the Lyceum’s inner circle and probably composed, originally, in connection with oral presentation there, which includes virtually all the works we now possess. And the names for these two categories of writings—at least according to later, ancient thinkers and editors—were, respectively, 'exoteric' and 'acroamatic' or 'acroatic' (literally, 'designed for hearing only')." (op.cit., pp. 32-33.)

"Inner-circle" is almost literally what "esoteric" means. But compare Nietzsche, who first opened Strauss's eyes to the phenomenon:

"Our highest insights must—and should!—sound like follies and sometimes like crimes when they are heard without permission by those who are not predisposed and predestined for them. The difference between the exoteric and the esoteric, formerly known to philosophers, among the Indians as among the Greeks, Persians, and Muslims, in short, wherever one believed in an order of rank and not in equality and equal rights—does not so much consist in this, that the exoteric approach comes from outside and sees, estimates, measures, and judges from the outside, not the inside: what is much more essential is that the exoteric approach sees things from below, the esoteric looks down from above." (Beyond Good and Evil, aphorism 30, Zimmern trans.)

Anyway, it's nothing to be wondered at if we cannot understand Aristotle without his oral guidance—even if we're well aware of his esotericism!
Sunday66
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by Sunday66 »

Sorry, lots of quoted text. Is there a point somewhere?
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by JDBowden »

I lost track myself.
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Re: Ethics by Aristotle: WTF???

Post by The Beast »

Hola Grullos or fellow philosophers. Why Grullos? If not a metaphor and the title of a long-lost rhetoric book by Aristotle. It must have been an earlier composition of his Rhetoric (I) full of rhetoric persuaders. Why Grullos? If not the sounds of a stretched neck warning the consequences of excesses? The sounds of a cranium of silvery feathers? Mysteries? Obviously. There was some departure from the Platonic school as Plato taught an earlier version of the scientific method and in the Republic “warned” the school against poets and metaphors. Yet, Aristotle had spoken of Thales of Miletus as the first philosopher… and wasn’t Thales’ family from Rhodes home of the Colossus and of an earlier Sun Temple. ‘The shield of Ares’. It may have been the diploma presented to all the royals wanting the silvery grullos and not the premier grullo Socrates himself a soldier: “I only know…” Wasn’t Ares the God of war? The shield of Ares could had been the needed soldiers’ virtues. My question to JDBowden is: What is a grullo in Chile?
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