(Mental) pleasure as a moral evil, what are some other perspectives?

[Quirelune]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil. When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig. And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I'd be grateful if you suggest a few philosophers who talked about these topics. And of course feel free to say what you think, as well. I know that my own perspective is very irrational, but I just can't see pleasure, even 'high' mental pleasure, like that from classical music or philosophy, any other way. Although of course I'm not going to argue for it, on the contrary I want to change that. I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

[Pattern-chaser]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil. When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig. And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I'd be grateful if you suggest a few philosophers who talked about these topics. And of course feel free to say what you think, as well. I know that my own perspective is very irrational, but I just can't see pleasure, even 'high' mental pleasure, like that from classical music or philosophy, any other way. Although of course I'm not going to argue for it, on the contrary I want to change that. I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

If you harm no-one, you have committed no 'evil'. Those who raised you (to believe as you do) seem to have some things to answer for...?

[JackDaydream]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil. When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig. And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I'd be grateful if you suggest a few philosophers who talked about these topics. And of course feel free to say what you think, as well. I know that my own perspective is very irrational, but I just can't see pleasure, even 'high' mental pleasure, like that from classical music or philosophy, any other way. Although of course I'm not going to argue for it, on the contrary I want to change that. I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

Your topic is a large one, which encompasses the history of philosophy. Plato, in his tripartite understanding of the selfspoke of there being a higher and lower self. The emphasis on a higher and lower self can be traced in many religious teachings. In Christianity there was a trend towards puritanism and this may have influenced Kant in his system of morality and the whole idea which developed the idea of moral law was linked to the idea of overcoming the passions and following reason.

Many philosophers have protested against the idea that pleasure should be denied and Nietzsche spoke of the importance of thre Dionysiun principle of pleasure. The utilitarian ethics, though not a way of dismissing reason, spoke of pleasure, but about the maximization of pleasure. Generally, philosophies which are 'otherworldly' have more emphasis on virtue as an inner aspect to be striven for as a goal in itself, often in relation to overcoming the seeking of pleasure as an intrinsic goal.

Personally, I was brought up as a Catholic and discovered that I had a lot of inner angst and guilt around the idea of pleasure. Reading psychoanalysis was important here, starting from Freud's understanding of the structure of the psyche, comprising of id, ego and the superego. The battle between these forces, especially id as instinct, against superego, as the internalised conscience of socialisation takes place with the ego as the mediating one, seeking ways of attaining conscious goals.

The ideas of Carl Jung are also important because he speaks of the shadow as the repressed darker aspects of the psyche. He argues that during socialisation many aspects which are potentially positive are suppressed and repressed, often with negative consequences often leading to destruction individually and amongst humanity generally. He argues that the emphasis on perfection within Christianity, especially in the tradition of St Paul's teachings led to the accumulation of a dark shadow of destructiveness. He suggests that perfection was impossible to achieve and that wholeness, with the value of Eros and pleasure is more helpful. The main work in which he discusses this is in his, 'Answer to Job'.

While Jung's ideas are helpful in thinking about the way religion has often led to people feeling guilty about pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, it is also worth thinking about it in the context of many not believing in God and this can give rise to the opposite direction of ethical hedonism. Also, there is the distinction between gratifying one's own pleasures and thinking of others, so it is also about the tension between egoism and altruism as an aspect for thinking about this in a rational way.

[Pattern-chaser]

Personally, I was brought up as a Catholic and discovered that I had a lot of inner angst and guilt around the idea of...

...everything! There are a few positives to being brought up RC, but this certainly isn't one of them!

[Sculptor1]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil. When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig. And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I'd be grateful if you suggest a few philosophers who talked about these topics. And of course feel free to say what you think, as well. I know that my own perspective is very irrational, but I just can't see pleasure, even 'high' mental pleasure, like that from classical music or philosophy, any other way. Although of course I'm not going to argue for it, on the contrary I want to change that. I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

What sort of repressive twisted regime did you live under as a child?

Sounds Christian.
A disgusting inhuman creed, which think suffering a route to salvation.

[Sculptor1]

If god is natural rather than made-up (cultural), then one ought to be able to define the purpose of god from reading the book of nature which tends to favour pleasure over pain.
Thus the pursuit of a happy life full of pleasure ought to be our main aim, simply as that is what nature seems to be telling us.

[Samana Johann]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil. When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig. And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I'd be grateful if you suggest a few philosophers who talked about these topics. And of course feel free to say what you think, as well. I know that my own perspective is very irrational, but I just can't see pleasure, even 'high' mental pleasure, like that from classical music or philosophy, any other way. Although of course I'm not going to argue for it, on the contrary I want to change that. I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

Sensual pleasures (pleasures in regard of past, present, future contact on the eye, ear, nose tongue, body), good householder, are unwholesome, are the root, the cause of all evil deeds, wars, killing, lying... One who takes the senses and objects as real, a refuge, controlable, own, addicted, is able to conduct what ever evil deed, killing even parents, holly ones...

Yet there are spheres of mental pleasure, which are no fault, wholesome, blameless, not connected with low, beyond world (of senses), the Jhanas, states of absortion, concentration, the path toward the Brahma realms and beyond.

[Quirelune]

The topicstarter here! A few people have asked what kind of upbringing I've had. It was not Catholic, it was Buddhist. Buddhism has a lot in common with Christianity, but experessed in a different way. E.g. pleasure in Buddhism is considered (a veiled kind of) suffering, and the ideal state is clinging to neither. If you really believe, then you'll avoid clinging to pleasure. That said, I don't condemn religion, because atheism is no better in the long run, at least in my experience it's much, much worse. I miss the days my life was filled with kindness, optimism, and meaning! In retrospect that was incredibly amazing, and if I could go back to that I would. Modern atheist life as it is has no meaning, with all its relativism and the inevitability of death. I find it devastating to live like this.

Reading psychoanalysis was important here, starting from Freud's understanding of the structure of the psyche, comprising of id, ego and the superego. The battle between these forces, especially id as instinct, against superego, as the internalised conscience of socialisation takes place with the ego as the mediating one, seeking ways of attaining conscious goals.

Just recently I've taken a course on psychoanalysis, and there was a lot of Freud. It was an eye opener, but in the long run I can't say that I find Freud's perspective very useful, even though it definitely has some truth to it. But he reduces a human being to biology. Even 'higher pleasures' he reduces to biology, as all of them are just a libido searching for a replacement object. That's how I already think, so it hasn't been helpful to me in regards to stopping to think that way.

We were taught about Jung's ideas, as well, I liked his description of the Individuation process as persona => shadow => animus => archetypes => the-Self. I've never read 'Answer to Job', I'll have to find it. Currently I'm beginning to look into existentialism.

Also, there is the distinction between gratifying one's own pleasures and thinking of others, so it is also about the tension between egoism and altruism as an aspect for thinking about this in a rational way.

My pessimistic mind has a readily supplied cop-out for that line of thinking: yes, but there's no true altruism, we do everything for our own benefit! I believe this idea is called a theory of 'psychological egoism'? I can't help but think so even though I should know better. When I was a Buddhist, my feelings of compassion towards others felt authentic and real.

[Samana Johann]

Not at all is pleasure regarded as suffering by the Sublime Buddha, but there is pleasure of the senses which is blame worthy, leads to much suffering for oneself and is based on suffering of others, yet there are many refined levels of joy recogniced by the liberal, till the peace of beyond.

MN 59: Bahuvedaniya Sutta — The Many Kinds of Feeling

And on the backwards of worldly joy: MN 13: Maha-dukkhakkhandha Sutta — The Great Mass of Stress

MN 75: Magandiya Sutta — To Magandiya In this passage, the Buddha teaches a member of a hedonist sect about the nature of true pleasure and true health.

[stevie]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil.

I wonder what the reason ("for some reason") is.

When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig.

Are there scientific studies on the capacities to differentiate tastes comparing humans and pigs? If there is a significant difference your feeling might be explained by psychology ... ?

And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

That's interesting because it is evident that pigs don't attend philosophy lectures.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I guess there are countless.

I know that my own perspective is very irrational, ...

That's good.

I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

As I said "psychology" which includes psychoanalysis.

[LuckyR]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil. When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig. And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I'd be grateful if you suggest a few philosophers who talked about these topics. And of course feel free to say what you think, as well. I know that my own perspective is very irrational, but I just can't see pleasure, even 'high' mental pleasure, like that from classical music or philosophy, any other way. Although of course I'm not going to argue for it, on the contrary I want to change that. I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

Wow, your last sentance seems to sum up the situation nicely. Professionals in this area are better equipped to advise than I.

[Samana Johann]

For some reason I consider pleasure and enjoyment a moral evil. When I eat something tasty I feel like a pig. And when I go to philosophy lectures and enjoy them, I feel that I live like a pig, too.

What are other pespectives on pleasure, especially mental pleasure?

I'd be grateful if you suggest a few philosophers who talked about these topics. And of course feel free to say what you think, as well. I know that my own perspective is very irrational, but I just can't see pleasure, even 'high' mental pleasure, like that from classical music or philosophy, any other way. Although of course I'm not going to argue for it, on the contrary I want to change that. I suspect that my perspective is simply an amalgamation of a religious upbringing (currently an atheist, though) and a small inferiority complex: it's merely a result of the past, rather than a well thought out opinion.

To add and come to even higher while avoiding to step back to low (sensual pleasures) it's very needed to attend to wise, for others, bad association, while cause fast downfall. May good householder don't fall into the atheist-trap, not fearing the danger in sensual pleasure and addiction, not fearing backwards, hell.

[Quirelune]

Professionals in this area are better equipped to advise than I.

As I said "psychology" which includes psychoanalysis.

I already attend psychotheraphy, and it happens to be psychoanalysis.

But I also study philosophy and I love it, which I why I decided to create a topic in this forum, in the first place. Our issues can direct our studies and make us more attentive to certain topics. In other words, I want to put my issues to good use.

[Quirelune]

Not at all is pleasure regarded as suffering by the Sublime Buddha, but there is pleasure of the senses which is blame worthy, leads to much suffering for oneself and is based on suffering of others, yet there are many refined levels of joy recogniced by the liberal, till the peace of beyond

To be honest, I think that in terms of authority, no text could trump a living teacher that I'd had for many years who taught me everything I know. It was not just a cultural family situation, it was more hardcore in my case, with a lot of meditation and personal retreats. I even planned to be a monk. But then I started doubting the very 'goal' of the teaching. I thought that maybe what they all seek (non-duality) is simply a feeling of being in the world as a newborn baby, for their perception is likely undifferentiated and, in that way, non-dual. This how I lost my faith. I'm very partial to the concept to universal truth, and I couldn't continue to believe in something that I started doubting as being objectively true. There's no point in pursuing something that's likely just a state of an infant's mind, it's not progress but regress.

[EricPH]

reading the book of nature which tends to favour pleasure over pain.
Thus the pursuit of a happy life full of pleasure ought to be our main aim, simply as that is what nature seems to be telling us.

Rapists and paedophiles would probably agree with you. Many pleasures impinge on the pleasure and happiness of others.